Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Cursed Lemon]

The capitals didn't have a second line center, decent defense, or goalie for years. Their roster wasn't some juggernaut. They had Jeff Schultz with Mike Green as a top pair, for f***s sake.

Mike scored-31-goals-in-the-middle-of-the-2nd-dead-puck-era Green?

That Mike Green?

 

[DearDiary]

The capitals didn't have a second line center, decent defense, or goalie for years. Their roster wasn't some juggernaut. They had Jeff Schultz with Mike Green as a top pair, for f***s sake.

You're being ridiculous. Capitals had a span where they won the Metro 5 straight seasons. They also had a span where they won the SouthEast 4 straight seasons. The most dominant regular season team of the post lockout era.

 

[Frank Drebin]

The capitals didn't have a second line center, decent defense, or goalie for years. Their roster wasn't some juggernaut. They had Jeff Schultz with Mike Green as a top pair, for f***s sake.

They were good enough to win 3 presidents trophies

 

[nbwingsfan]

I think if you’re debating the greatest players to have ever played the game, a cup win is a minimum to be in that conversation, If mcdavid doesn’t win a cup in his career it excludes him from the great category. The bourque situation is an outlier and an entirely different situation IMO.

Use Hasek then.

When you think of Hasek’s career and accomplishments, how far down the list do you have to go to him winning the Cup as like the 6th best player on arguably the greatest team of all time?

Hell, the vast majority (of not all) would rank him losing in 1998 as a substantially better performance and more historic in terms of his career than the cup win in 2002

 

[Three On Zero]

2nd best player of all time…. To be listed behind Crosby

 

[nbwingsfan]

YES, 100%. The caveman part of your brain thinks this way, championship means prestige that can't be replaced by personal accomplishments.

Who’s better in your mind, Darren McCarty or Jerome Iginla?

Chris Osgood or Henrik Lundqvist?

 

[Hank Plank]

Who’s better in your mind, Darren McCarty or Jerome Iginla?

Chris Osgood or Henrik Lundqvist?

Osgood got it done. Iginla choked in the biggest game of his career. I stand by what I said.

 

[Sentinel]

People who have Howe over Mario confuse me. Howe to me is easily #4 in that big 4 but nonetheless an absolute legend and def worthy of making it a "big 4."

That said, I think Howe is for sure the most likely for McDavid to pass and in fact I am on record in this thread as saying it's basically inevitable McDavid passes him. 5 Rosses in 8 seasons in the

Howe has 6 Art Rosses and 6 Harts. He was in the top 5 in points in the League for TWENTY STRAIGHT YEARS (a record that will never be broken). He was elite defensively and a brute to play against. He has TWICE as many Harts and Cups as Lemieux. I rank him at #2 without much hesitation.

There is very little chance McDavid passes Howe. Btw, neither Lemieux nor Howe ever lost an Art Ross to a teammate (and Jagr >> Draisaitl).

modern era >>> 6 Rosses in a 30 year career in a mostly 6 team league where the entire talent pool came from Canada with 17 million people.

So? Which foreign Howe contemporaries could challenge Howe for the Art Ross? Bobrov? Starshinov? Tumba Svenson?

Crosby I think is the consensus 5th best player at this point. Undecided if I think McDavid has already passed him for that spot but it's literally just a matter of time before he does (and I'm a huge Crosby guy).

Jagr has no argument for 5th much less 2. Def in the convo for top 10 though.


Nobody has ever made a serious argument for Jagr at #2, come off it.

"Consensus"? He is not even a consensus Top 10. I rank Hasek, Esposito, Believau, and the Best Goalscorer of All Time over Crosby.

 

[Sentinel]

Regardless. When I think of his career I think of the harts and vezinas with Buffalo not his time as still a very good player on a powerhouse wings team, nor do I care that he lost his job to Chris Osgood in 2008

What *you think* of his career matters very little to Hasek's standing. His Cup(s) with the Wings put him in the Top 10.

So you think if Hasek didn't end up on one of the greatest teams ever assembled we'd look differently at his career?

Of course we would. No question. Even though he had one legendary run in 1998, he'd still be ranked substantially lower. Cups matter.

 

[Voight]

He had to ask for a trade a stacked team to get his cup. Great ones find ways to win.

Bourque essentially dragged the Bruins to two finals in three years in the middle of his prime. (Neely played well but he wasn't the straw that stirred the drink). Sure, he lost both times albeit to a dynasty. Hockey is a huge team sports, there's only so much one player can do. So I don't typically agree with "great ones find easy to win" ... you could have a superhuman performance and still lose.

I think 77 was a different case, bourque played on Bruins teams that were close enough but ended up bailing bailing because he couldn’t seal the deal. That severely altered how I viewed his career in totality . I’m not arguing his contributions to Colorado weren’t instrumental, but looking at his whole career from a bigger perspective it just looked like a legacy move to put the icing on a career that was largely defined by regular season accolades. I say all this as life long bruins, born and raised in greater Boston area so I’m not particularly fond of hating on bruins players as general rule, but bourque leaving the way he did has always bothered me. I’ll freely admit my perspective is probably a little jaded on this . I think I’ll always look negatively on great pro athletes that cash in their chips at the end of their careers for a lay up championship.

He stuck around for 1500 something games. This wasn't a Jack Eichel "trade me cause my team sucks" type of situation. Bourque literally gave them his career and only asked to be traded to fulfill his desire of winning a cup. Notice how he did it in 2000; he could've asked for a trade much earlier but didn't, holding out hope Boston would finally break through.

I'm curious what bothered you about him leaving the way he did. He wasn't Ray Allen signing with a rival team as an example. He (reasonably) requested a trade and allowed the Bruins to get some assets back.

 

[Macheteops]

Again. Does McDavid become a worse player if you take out the current Euros?

He’d be currently on a 7 Art Ross run without Kuch and Drai both winning one each and McDavid being runner up both times

And the margin would increase as well in some years

 

[nbwingsfan]

Osgood got it done. Iginla choked in the biggest game of his career. I stand by what I said.

So you value Osgood higher than Lundqvist? Why is one a first ballot HoF goalie and considered one of the best all time and the other is just a guy who won some cups?

You didn’t answer my question…

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Osgood got it done. Iginla choked in the biggest game of his career. I stand by what I said.

So did Chris Dingman. Twice! Better than Ray Bourque, mind you.

 

[Hank Plank]

So you value Osgood higher than Lundqvist? Why is one a first ballot HoF goalie and considered one of the best all time and the other is just a guy who won some cups?

You didn’t answer my question…

You didn't get the answer you wanted. I'm not saying it is fair, or winning a Cup makes a player automatically better. But it attaches prestige you can't get no matter how many points you pile up.

Only Flames fans talk about how great Iggy was in 2004.

 

[I am Bettman]

Mcdavid is not as great as other players because of circumstances beyond his control? 75 points in 49 playoff games is good for 4th all time. What more do you want him to do? If he wins it with a meager point per game pace playoff run, how does that make him greater?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah definitely not.

 

[HFpapi]

He's not passing Gretzky or Orr, so 3 is as high as he'll go imo. Lemieux & Howe is an easier bar though.

Orr's peak is absurdly high, at worst 2nd highest peak of all-time behind 99 and I can totally see why so many actually rank it as the highest peak of all-time.

But Orr only played 657 total NHL games.

You don't think there's any conceivable career that McDavid can have that would overcome the peak differential considering the fact that McDavid himself is peaking exceptionally high? (McDavid I think it can be said is having the 4th highest peak of all-time behind 99, 4, 66).

If Orr has the 2nd highest peak and McDavid has the 4th highest peak, but McDavid has more than double the games played and 8 scoring titles and 6 Hart's and let's sprinkle in a Cup + Conn too, you don't think it's a question?

I know those are hypotheticals but McDavid winning 2 more scorings titles + 2 more Harts isn't a stretch by any means. The cup a bit more so but I think he gets at least 1.

He’d be currently on a 7 Art Ross run without Kuch and Drai both winning one each and McDavid being runner up both times

And the margin would increase as well in some years

Shocked it took him 3 explanations to understand what was being said. (Assuming he finally gets it).

 

[norrisnick]

Howe has 6 Art Rosses and 6 Harts. He was in the top 5 in points in the League for TWENTY STRAIGHT YEARS (a record that will never be broken). He was elite defensively and a brute to play against. He has TWICE as many Harts and Cups as Lemieux. I rank him at #2 without much hesitation.

There is very little chance McDavid passes Howe. Btw, neither Lemieux nor Howe ever lost an Art Ross to a teammate (and Jagr >> Draisaitl).

Apart from Lindsay in 1950 and Jagr in 2001 of course...

 

[Kimota]

Mario was just on another level everytime he touched the ice. I feel like McDavid has to do more with less results. Mario had better creativity and vision. I think it's Gretzky, Mario, Orr, Jagr, Forsberg, Sid, Ovy, Howe and then McDavid.

And yea championships matters. This is not figure skating. Winning is everything.

 

[Frank Drebin]

What *you think* of his career matters very little to Hasek's standing. His Cup(s) with the Wings put him in the Top 10.


Of course we would. No question. Even though he had one legendary run in 1998, he'd still be ranked substantially lower. Cups matter.

So you *think* that every player from the 02 wings careers were elevated because of that cup win. Disagree and moving on.

 

[Toene]

Mario was just on another level everytime he touched the ice. I feel like McDavid has to do more with less results. Mario had better creativity and vision. I think it's Gretzky, Mario, Orr, Jagr, Forsberg, Sid, Ovy, Howe and then McDavid.

And yea championships matters. This is not figure skating. Winning is everything.

McDavid will surpass Jagr IMO

 

[Frank Drebin]

If there was an HF back in the 90s there would be people saying Gretzky isn't the Goat because of reasons. People will find some of these opinions just as comical in a few years.

 

[Kimota]

McDavid will surpass Jagr IMO

Maybe in points but not at everything else. This is a much softer league and with much more PPs than when Jagr played. The guy scored goals with three guys on his back. He was a machine of skills and strenght. There's no Scott Stevens outthere waiting to take your head off.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Maybe in points but not at everything else. This is a much softer league and with much more PPs than when Jagr played. The guy scored goals with three guys on his back. He was a machine of skills and strenght. There's no Scott Stevens outthere waiting to take your head off.

They dont make em like they used to eh

 

[MessierII]

Mario was just on another level everytime he touched the ice. I feel like McDavid has to do more with less results. Mario had better creativity and vision. I think it's Gretzky, Mario, Orr, Jagr, Forsberg, Sid, Ovy, Howe and then McDavid.

And yea championships matters. This is not figure skating. Winning is everything.

Forsberg lol