Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[Sasha Orlov]

If you're going to disregard Howe based on his era then you are unwilling to actually talk all time rankings.

Which is fine. There's nothing wrong with post 1967 or post 1990 or post 2005 lists. They're just not all time lists. The Athletic recognised their own gap in knowledge so didn't even attempt pre 1967.

Ok but why not address my other point? Disregard era if you want, it still took Howe more than twice as long to win one more Art Ross

McDavid might have 10+ Rosses after 17 seasons lol

 

[Coffey]

Disregard era if you want, it still took Howe more than twice as long to win one more Art Ross

That's the problem of comparing a 26 year old's career to a dead guys

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ok but why not address my other point? Disregard era if you want, it still took Howe more than twice as long to win one more Art Ross

McDavid might have 10+ Rosses after 17 seasons lol

You don't rank players based on maybes or could haves. I thought Crosby was going to win 5 in a row in 2010. I thought Ovechkin was going to win 5 in a row in 2009. But it didn't happen. Maybe McDavid does win 10. But it's ludicrous to give him credit for games he hasn't played.

Is McDavid ahead of Howe at age 26? I can see it. But Howe stayed in his prime for another 15 years afterwards.

Could McDavid win at a Hart at age 34? Sure. But I'm not giving him credit for anything until he does it.

 

[Green]

The big 4 all won cups, I know it's a team trophy but still. Being one of the all time big 4 legends you need to win. I could see an argument for replacing Howe, as his legacy will fade as it grows older.

The other 3 are near impossible to surpass unless Mcdavid takes his level of talent to the absolute pinnacle with 150+ point seasons, 2000 points, individual hardware and at least a cup, preferably 2.

He is in control of this destiny, I think he will be top 5 when all is said and done. How much higher he climbs we will see. Should be fun to witness. Maybe the big 4 will become the big 5.

3 of those big 4 also won when there were 22 or less teams in the league, alot easier to win a cup 30+ years ago if you were a dominant player

 

[Sasha Orlov]

You don't rank players based on maybes or could haves.

Is McDavid ahead of Howe at age 26? I can see it. But Howe stayed in his prime for another 15 years afterwards.

Could McDavid win at a Hart at age 34? Sure. But I'm not giving him credit for anything until he does it.

Why do I care if McDavid wins a Hart at 34 if he already laps Howe in Rosses in half the time?

 

[Sweetpotato]

To be fair he has 2 seasons where he is head and shoulders above the rest

2015-2016 he wasn't the best
2016-2017 --> he and Crosby was very similar in production (100 pts vs 97 pt pace)
2017-2018 --> he had 4/5 guys within 10 pts of his production (Malkin, Mack, Hall, Giroux, Kuch)
2018 - 2019 --> Kucherov was better than him
2019 - 2020 --> Draisaitl was better than him
2020 - 2021 --> Clear cut best player, was 25-30 pts better than anyone else
2021-2022 --> Matthews was very close pace-wise (120 vs 125 I think) and Gaudreau/Huberdeau both were at 115
2022 - 2023 --> He is again 25-30 pts better than anyone else (Draisaitl his teammate and Mack/Kuch being the challengers for 2nd)

In all the years you just listed, you had to compare literally every elite player in the NHL to McDavid. If McDavid is the only name that is represented every year at the top 2 of scoring it's McDavid vs the field. That's clearly differentiating yourself from the field.

 

[Coffey]

In all the years you just listed, you had to compare literally every elite player in the NHL to McDavid. If McDavid is the only name that is represented every year at the top 2 of scoring it's McDavid vs the field. That's clearly differentiating yourself from the field.

People always forget how small the pool of elite players was back in the O6 era.
No Germans, No Russians. No Swedes.
It's not as simple as "LOOK AT THE PERCENTAGES! LOOK HOW MANY CUPS THEY WON!"

 

[DrDangles]

3 of those big 4 also won when there were 22 or less teams in the league, alot easier to win a cup 30+ years ago if you were a dominant player

I half agree with you, but I also think more teams = a dilution of the talent pool. Every expansion team adds a rotation of 30-40 players that otherwise wouldn't be good enough to make the NHL.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

All he has to do is keep pumping out Art Rosses.
The old men yelling at clouds will scream *but cups* while their favorite all time great only won cups on absolutely stacked teams with minimum 3 HOF'ers , always funny to see.
I don't think he surpasses Mario and Wayne tho all time

 

[SEALBound]

The potential is there for sure but he has to figure out a way to win.

Marcel Dionne was a HELL of a player who racked up points. But because he didn't win shit he's not mentioned in the same breathe as the big 4. Or 5. Or 6 or...

 

[Coffey]

I half agree with you, but I also think more teams = a dilution of the talent pool. Every expansion team adds a rotation of 30-40 players that otherwise wouldn't be good enough to make the NHL.

On the other hand, how many euros played?
More teams = more potential for a lower drafted player to come out of nowhere and become a future HOFer.

See: Kucherov, Zetterberg, Hasek, Datsyuk, Lidstrom

 

[Shanahanigans]

I hope he wins a few cups and the Oilers are a contender for a long time. Not only as an Oilers fan, but as a fan of the sport. This level of dominance compared to his peers is comparable to Brady and Lebron. I wish hockey was more popular in the States and worldwide, because what he's doing on a nightly basis is out of this world.

 

[Three On Zero]

He’s already better than Crosby ever was. With or without a Cup.

The pure homerism in this post, McDavid is approaching Crosby. But he’s still the inferior player

 

[SenzZen]

it's a lot closer than people here want to admit.


Nope,cup of bust brah

 

[Amazinmets73]

There, I said it.

The big 4 has been mythologized and deified but it’s been fine since no player has made a compelling argument to question the sanctity of it until now.

Crosby made an argument for 5th best of all-time but even without losing those three seasons of his prime, I don’t think he was ever a serious threat to Howe/Orr/Super Mario.

McDavid is peaking higher than Howe right now. He’s simply a better player and I’m done pretending that he’s not. (Insert Joker meme).

Howe has legendary longevity but Connor has been very healthy and shows no signs of slowing down. Even if he doesn’t match Howes’ longevity (who can) I value the peak more.

Also, far be it for me to discredit the OG’s, we simply have to factor into the equation that Howe played in a 6 team league against almost exclusively Canadians. We simply have to acknowledge how much more competition McDavid has. He’s being trailed in the scoring race by a German, Russian, and Czech. That simply didn’t happen in Howes’ day.

Connor isn’t nor will he peak higher than Mario or #4 but neither player reached even 1000 games.

If McDavid wins 7-8 scoring titles and 5-6 MVP’s and plays 1400 games I think you have to put him number #2 all-time.

Either way, it’s incredible what we are witnessing right now.

Thoughts? Will McDavid be #2 of all-time when the dust settles?

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

But the best and greatest player to play the sport of hockey is Mario Lemieux

The 2001 season is for me his most amazing. 76 pts in 43 games in the dead puck era coming off three years of being retired. He was better than 2023 Mcdavid by a significant margin

Mcdavid would be Draisaitl to Lemieux

Basedz

 

[Amazinmets73]

There, I said it.

The big 4 has been mythologized and deified but it’s been fine since no player has made a compelling argument to question the sanctity of it until now.

Crosby made an argument for 5th best of all-time but even without losing those three seasons of his prime, I don’t think he was ever a serious threat to Howe/Orr/Super Mario.

McDavid is peaking higher than Howe right now. He’s simply a better player and I’m done pretending that he’s not. (Insert Joker meme).

Howe has legendary longevity but Connor has been very healthy and shows no signs of slowing down. Even if he doesn’t match Howes’ longevity (who can) I value the peak more.

Also, far be it for me to discredit the OG’s, we simply have to factor into the equation that Howe played in a 6 team league against almost exclusively Canadians. We simply have to acknowledge how much more competition McDavid has. He’s being trailed in the scoring race by a German, Russian, and Czech. That simply didn’t happen in Howes’ day.

Connor isn’t nor will he peak higher than Mario or #4 but neither player reached even 1000 games.

If McDavid wins 7-8 scoring titles and 5-6 MVP’s and plays 1400 games I think you have to put him number #2 all-time.

Either way, it’s incredible what we are witnessing right now.

Thoughts? Will McDavid be #2 of all-time when the dust settles?

The point about the NHL being almost exclusively Canadian when Howe competed is valid. However, isn't the fact that Howe's NHL was comprised of only 6 teams an argument for higher level of competition? For example, imagine if the current NHL was consolidated into 6 teams. How strong would the rosters of those 6 teams be?

 

[Coffey]

The point about the NHL being almost exclusively Canadian when Howe competed is valid. However, isn't the fact that Howe's NHL was comprised of only 6 teams an argument for higher level of competition? For example, imagine if the current NHL was consolidated into 6 teams. How strong would the rosters of those 6 teams be?

Let's omit the population differences of the world from 2020s to 1950s and the fact that euros are playing, right?

 

[jigglysquishy]

All he has to do is keep pumping out Art Rosses.
The old men yelling at clouds will scream *but cups* while their favorite all time great only won cups on absolutely stacked teams with minimum 3 HOF'ers , always funny to see.
I don't think he surpasses Mario and Wayne tho all time

Couldn't you say the same about some of the modern super teams?

Crosby had 3 HoF teammates in Malkin, Letang, and Fleury.

Kucherov had 3 HoF teammates in Stamkos, Hedman, Vasilevsky.

Kane had 3 HoF teammates in Keith, Toews, Hossa.

 

[Amazinmets73]

Let's omit the population differences of the world from 2020s to 1950s and the fact that euros are playing, right?

I literally stated that the homogeneity of the league was a valid point in the paragraph you quoted...

 

[Cats2TheCup]

I doubt he ever passes Crosby on the list.

McDavid has two big minuses that although have nothing to do with him will likely hurt hi legacy when comepeting with the others.

1. If he sticks with Edmonton no chance to win a Cup let alone multiple Cups. While it might be unfair to hold up team achievements when judging individual players when you are talking about the GOAT's it will be a factor and every other top player has multiple wins so McDavid having none will hurt him. It will be interesting to see if he wins some late in his career after his prime is over and he leaves Edmonton how that might change but zero Cups in his prime won't help when it is such a close comparison.

2. No chance for international success. The Golden goal is a signature moment in Crosby's career, him leading Canada to one of the most dominant performances in Sochi helps him as well. Again this might not be fair and not everyone will say it matters but overall I think it affects people's view on players and McDavid is going to miss out on the chance to get that signature international moment- Gretzky to Lemiuex in 87 as well.

Even ignoring these I think it is way too early to think he will be number 2, that isn't a mark against him just an acknowledgement on how great the other players at the top are/were.

He doesn't have to stick with Edmonton for his whole career, but if he can't win one in Edmonton, where Gretzky did, the most he'll ever amount to is number 2 unless he hits a 300pt season.

 

[Neutrinos]

McDavid as he is today is better than Gretzky ever was...

The only player that I'm not sure McDavid is better than would be Lemieux

 

[666]

There's two things here. McDavid is already the best player to play the game other than Orr but he's going to need some more accomplishments before he's one of the greatest.

Best refers to talent, greatest refers to accomplishments.

 

[Coffey]

I literally stated that the homogeneity of the league was a valid point in the paragraph you quoted...

Population is also a big deal.
North America had 200 million less people in the 50s. Thus, the pool of talent would be much smaller even without euros.

 

[Zalos]

The potential is there for sure but he has to figure out a way to win.

Marcel Dionne was a HELL of a player who racked up points. But because he didn't win shit he's not mentioned in the same breathe as the big 4. Or 5. Or 6 or...

Dionne is nowhere close to the same level as McDavid. That's a joke.

As for the OP, I agree, he will end up 2nd behind Lemieux.