Mcdavid could never win a cup and I'd still put him as easy top 5 nhler to ever play the game.
Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time
- Thread starter HFpapi
- Start date
snipes
How cold? I’m ice cold.
- Dec 28, 2015
- 55,880
- 64,525
He’s already better than Crosby ever was. With or without a Cup.
JackSlater
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2010
- 19,294
- 14,637
His best argument will probably be against Lemieux. People are willing to downgrade Howe basically because most fans are not familiar with him at this point, but his peak is tremendous and his longevity is unparalleled and gives him a unique argument. McDavid won't be able to match Orr's peak and the difference in position will give people pause. He won't be able to match Gretzky for peak and even people unfamiliar with Gretzky are content to look at the trophy case and call him the best, and McDavid will never have a trophy cast to match Gretzky's.
That leaves Lemieux. Realistically he is unlikely to match Lemieux's peak, but Lemieux was rarely able (just once) to play a full season at peak level and he missed so much time overall. In terms of lazy trophy counting McDavid has a chance against Lemieux and in terms of longevity Lemieux is ripe for the picking. A big part of Lemieux's argument, as he really doesn't have any quality argument against Gretzky by conventional metrics, is that people watch his highlights and are wildly impressed. Gretzky was a less visually appealing player and Orr/Howe don't have many highlights available. McDavid is visually spectacular and everything he does is recorded. In the end he may end up with more trophies than Lemieux, far better longevity, and a better highlight reel. If that happens and many fans grow up with memories of McDavid but only a vague familiarity with Lemieux, people will be able to overlook Lemieux being a step up at his best.
That leaves Lemieux. Realistically he is unlikely to match Lemieux's peak, but Lemieux was rarely able (just once) to play a full season at peak level and he missed so much time overall. In terms of lazy trophy counting McDavid has a chance against Lemieux and in terms of longevity Lemieux is ripe for the picking. A big part of Lemieux's argument, as he really doesn't have any quality argument against Gretzky by conventional metrics, is that people watch his highlights and are wildly impressed. Gretzky was a less visually appealing player and Orr/Howe don't have many highlights available. McDavid is visually spectacular and everything he does is recorded. In the end he may end up with more trophies than Lemieux, far better longevity, and a better highlight reel. If that happens and many fans grow up with memories of McDavid but only a vague familiarity with Lemieux, people will be able to overlook Lemieux being a step up at his best.
The Grim Reaper
Registered User
This is my view as well assuming health and after seeing his playoff performance last season but the next 5 years will be when he makes or breaks it.
I have thought for a long time that Mario is a bit of a weak link in actual on ice overall impact and those that don't have him 4th often look at the video game stats and his aura rather than actual overall impact.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Lol there is absolutely no chance that McDavid ends up #2 all time.
The best case scenario with him is that he ends up the clear #5 player of all time and they change the "big 4" to the "big 5". But even that would require McDavid to win a couple of cups.
The best case scenario with him is that he ends up the clear #5 player of all time and they change the "big 4" to the "big 5". But even that would require McDavid to win a couple of cups.
genk
Registered User
- Nov 15, 2015
- 632
- 1,061
It’s next to impossible to compare players historically, but i lean toward McDavid probably being #1 all time.
I don't know. It's not fair or logical, but if he doesn't win a couple championships, it will also be "McDavid was one of the greatest ever, but he never won the stanley cup"
He needs to win it all to truly cement his legacy. Either way, I can get on board with him being better than Crosby, but I'll never have him above Lemieux or Gretzky. Those two were in a different world than everyone else
KevinRedkey
12/18/23 and beyond!
- Jan 22, 2010
- 10,527
- 5,817
I don't have it as the big 4. For me it's the big 3. Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr.
i can certainly see McDavid becoming #4 but it would be tough to crack top 3.
i can certainly see McDavid becoming #4 but it would be tough to crack top 3.
hamzarocks
Registered User
He's passed Howe for peak this year. Passes Howe for Prime in 3 years if he comes top 2 in ross+hart+lindsay again
Career longevity value, I doubt he doesn't have a 20-year career, so he'll pass that by end of his career as well.
Howe is amazing, I have 2nd greatest all time due to his health being great and his longevity.
Mcdavid is the 3rd best offensive producer ever after 99 and 66.
If he wins more rosses+harts+lindsays than either Gretzky or Lemieux he won't be 5th all time
If he gets 2 cups, he's the GOAT. 3 cups or more he's the undisputed GOAT (not the best of all time as I still think Lemieux, and Greztky were better but not greater than Mcdavid with 3 cups + 7-9 ross/hart/lindsays each)
He's going to be winning another few 150+ point rosses/harts/lindsays
jj cale
Registered User
i love the kid but you really think so? not for me.............watched plenty of both and it's still Lemieux for me.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
McDavid's career so far: 810 points in 547 games
Crosby's first 547 games: 767 points in 547 games
Considering differences in goal scoring eras (about 5% higher scoring in McDavid's career compared to Crosby), their first 547 games have been extremely comparable. Adjusting to normalize goal scoring per game, Crosby's first 547 games would be equivalent to 805 points with being in the NHL in the same years as McDavid. Crosby had a lower scoring league with better competition and had more injuries to deal with.
Lmfao there is absolutely no chance that McDavid has passed Howe after 550 games in the NHL. What a ludicrous statement.
Kimota
ROY DU NORD!!!
Not better than Mario ah ha ha. Mario literally was another breed of man like he belonged to a different league higher than the NHL. I don't think the Big Three of Mario, Wayne and Orr will ever be touched. Then McDavid has to compete with prime Jagr, prime Sid and AO. Howe, Hull(dad), Beliveau, Lafleur.
- Jun 22, 2018
- 8,953
- 21,212
He’s up there, but if you want to see how truly gifted Gretzky was take a look at his stats prior to NHL
Kid had 517 points in 85 games in atom lmfao now that’s talent
SeanMoneyHands
Registered User
- Apr 18, 2019
- 15,325
- 14,726
Good at producing points. Once he isn't a defensive liability, maybe he'll be on Crosby level. But that would hurt his ability to produce points, so he won't commit to it
jigglysquishy
Registered User
The likelihood he overtakes Lemieux for fourth is very small. It'll likely end up the Big Four. McDavid consensus 5th. Then the Beliveau/Harvey/Hull/Crosby/Hasek/Roy discussion for 6th.
He's clearly peaking below Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr. This is his first full season peaking at the Howe level. He's yet to match Howe's prime and not even in the same world longevity wise. That Howe was a substantially better defensive player than Gretzky/Lemieux/McDavid plays into it too.
The present gap between 4 and 5 is so large it feels weird to place anyone at 5. McDavid is the first name to fill that gap.
He's clearly peaking below Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr. This is his first full season peaking at the Howe level. He's yet to match Howe's prime and not even in the same world longevity wise. That Howe was a substantially better defensive player than Gretzky/Lemieux/McDavid plays into it too.
The present gap between 4 and 5 is so large it feels weird to place anyone at 5. McDavid is the first name to fill that gap.
- Jun 22, 2018
- 8,953
- 21,212
How has he not matched Howe’s prime? He blows Howe out of the water statistically
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Yeah I think this is a perfect opinion on it. McDavid is trending towards being the consensus 5th best player if he continues on the track he's currently on. If he slips up, he'll just end up in that debatable tier among Crosby/Ovi/Beliveau/ect players for the 5th best player slot.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
He really doesnt.
Howe's 6 Art Rosses by margin of victory
33.8%
30.3%
24.6%
20.9%
6.2%
4.7%
McDavid's 4 Art Rosses
25.0%
12.4%
7.0%
5.9%
McDavid is currently 28.4% ahead of Draisailt
Howe had 6 Harts and 12 times a finalist.
McDavid is about to win his 3rd Hart and will have been a finalist 5 times.
You can look at their VsX7s.
Howe: 125.5 (only behind Gretzky and Esposito)
McDavid: 104.5 (will be around 115 at the end of the year)
- Jun 22, 2018
- 8,953
- 21,212
Howe did that in a 6 team league and McDavid is about to have one less Art Ross in 8 seasons versus Howe winning one more in 17 seasons
Gonna have to disagree with you on this one
Is this a car?
Bingo. O6 stats are stupid.
Let's post another Hab that won 39 cups to show how bad McDavid is.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
If you're going to disregard Howe based on his era then you are unwilling to actually talk all time rankings.
Which is fine. There's nothing wrong with post 1967 or post 1990 or post 2005 lists. They're just not all time lists. The Athletic recognised their own gap in knowledge so didn't even attempt pre 1967.
