I agree with you on everything but Denmark. Denmark has a flukey amount of top-end forwards, which is not indicative of the quality of their overall progamme or their depth. Once their generations change and the older guys retire, there won't be a bunch of Ehlers coming up. Latvia has more depth, Denmark has more top-end talent, but they're pretty much on par.
Combine rosters outside the big 6 and tell me how they would fare?
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But what's the reason? Why are the Czechs going more and more down? Is hockey no longer promoted strongly enough?
swissexpert
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2009
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You said it yourself, in 'almost' every aspect.
Like I said, Switzerland is better right now but pretty close. It looks like there will be a bigger gap in the coming years because the combination of young talents, scouting, money is in our favour.
But you can't just ignore the past, Slovakia was superior in the last decade and it doesn't simply change to 'not even close' in 2-3 seasons.
I have to agree with Namejs here, there is no doubt that Switzerland is better than Slovakia right now. In my opinion, Slovakia is on par with Germany and maybe a couple of other teams.
Every hockey nation heavily depends on a successful youth program in order to develop its next generation of talented players. The Czech youth development program hasn't really been producing any notable prospects throughout a long period of time; the worst period being around 2008 - 2013 (with some exceptions like Hertl, Faksa, Pastrnak, Vrana). One can notice this by simply looking at the number of drafted Czech players over the last (roughly) 20 years.
2000 - 2004 : 100 (roughly 25 players/year)
2005 - 2019: 100 (roughly 7 players/year)
There are surely multiple reasons responsible for this. Wrong decision-making in the build-of the hockey development program, lack of ability to adapt to "modern hockey" (especially what concerns offensive defenders). Ultimately hockey is still one of the more expensive sports in CZ. A lot of talented players that peaked in the late 90s/early 2000s were the result of heavily funded governmental sports programs (Czechoslovakia) - not only in hockey, soccer too f.x.. Nowadays there seems to be a shortage of funds available in youth hockey too...
Because of all of this Czechs have lost touch to the top 5. However there is a reason to believe that Czech hockey will pick itself up again very soon. With a number of talented drafted prospects that have been developed recently (Chytil, Necas, Zadina, Hronek, Hajek, etc.) and some promising future prospects, we might turn things round faster than expected.
Hockey is still pretty popular in the Czech Republic, it is roughly on the same level with soccer, and since soccer is popular everywhere worldwide, it is hockey what is often considered the specific "national sport" here. However, there have been a lot of bad decisions recently made regarding the youth development programs. In fact, after the "golden period" of the Czech hockey (cca 1995-2005), there was almost a decade of doing literally nothing in terms of the young players' development. The modern trends were ignored, no methodical changes which were successfully implemented in Canada, Sweden, Finland, but also Switzerland were accepted here. This was the sad decade of absurdly conservative coaches on all levels, from the youth programs to the men's national team, who were not willing to see, that the hockey world is moving forth, that the traditional "clever Czech game" is by far not enough now, that without implementing the advanced practice methods, young guys will never be able to compete with their still faster, stronger, more agile opponents.
Thigs started to turn to better some, say, 5 years ago, we can already see some results, but many of the problems remain, especially with the development of defenders. Here we still need to adapt to the modern trends. More precisely, those have been accepted in some kids' teams and programs. In many of them however, not enough focus is still paid to the mobility and stickhandling of young defenders, which results into producing big yet awkward "punishers" instead of agile, mobile D-men, whom the modern hockey requires.
Regarding the financial issues, it is not impossible for regional clubs to obtain money or even already prepared equipment kits for the boys. A lot of such kits are available in the storages of the Czech hockey associations. However, many of the managers of these regional teams do their work on purely amateur level, they are not in permanent touch with the hockey association managers, coaching instructors etc. Here we need much better communication between the regional teams and the central headquarters of the youth programs. Again, it is improving somewhere, but still not everywhere.
BalticWarrior
Registered User
How do you evaluate the overall quality of the programme? Denmark has produced quite a bit of talent for it all to just be a "fluke". And i say that as a Latvian. We would like to believe that we are just unlucky, but maybe Danes are doing something right that we arent?
Eye of Ra
Grandmaster General of the International boards
Keduzin
Registered User
- May 5, 2009
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I believe this goes for just about all Finns. But I think this is not necessary the case for all other countries. Finlands style of play usually works great against the Czech compared to the Swiss while some other countries are just the opposite
tony d
New poll series coming from me in June
There is some good talent in the next tier of hockey nations outside the big 6. Combining the Swiss, Germany, Slovakia would get you a very good team, maybe not a gold contender but still a solid team.
This is true. The Czechs usually have problems with the Finnish style of play, while the the Finns have problems with the Swiss style.
geisterpanthers
Registered User
Didn't mean the teams at the tournament right now but rather the overalskill level considering all players
stastny12
Registered User
Do you hate Slovakia? Because It is looking like you have some serious problem with them...
Just write down the names of the best Danish players and the best Latvian players. Use eliteprospects as a tool if need be.
Create a Danish A team. Create a Danish B team. 40-45 players total. Create a Latvian A team. Create a Latvian B team. You can go deeper and add another team on top of it.
If Denmark is doing things right, it must follow that they should have better players all throughout the spectrum. More depth. Better players. More prospects. It's not the case.
They have 5 NHL draftees 2015-2019. A forward with 15 points in the Denmark league. All of them are busts pretty much. We have 4 draftees, including Balcers and Abols.
They're not producing better players on a consistent basis, they're not pumping out talent. Hence it must be a statistical fluke, a fat-tailed distribution. It's clearly luck. And luck never lasts.
It can create a momentum, more exposure to the sport, which can lead to more kids playing the sport, but there is no hockey boom in Denmark. Denmark will not rise to the level of Switzerland, it will gradually fall a bit lower after their leading players retire.
There's a disconnect between reality and the expectations of Slovakian fans and their understanding of the current state of Slovakian hockey.
I'm just a guy trying to make fact-based judgments about all things hockey. I've got nothing against Slovakia and I wish them luck.
Slovakia is worse than Switzerland and I'm not sure why is that such a bitter pill for you to swallow. Being aware of where you are is the first step in making progress. You have plenty of tradition and plenty of potential, and way, way more players we'll ever have.
It's just a question of fine-tuning your hockey programme and catching up in a few years time. Pointing fingers, ignoring things and blaming everyone else is not the right way to go about it.
torero
Registered User
While i understand the concept of style matching , and have to agree with the logic, when viewing the problematic under another perspective, it doesn't validate this theory. This theory requires to have a stable play system. Which is not the case for Switzerland. We changed a lot our style. Speed has remained among the only prints coming from the NLA.
For the Swiss, i will speak, we went from playing poor hockey, 1980. To playing the trap with a bit better hockey (the Ralph Kruger era) , to a more aggressive fast speed hockey but not too physical era (Simpson era some NHL and mosst NLA) to a Direct style with half NHLers and half NLA players (Fischer era). So we sensitively changed our style of game having had good coaches.
So that is plenty of style changes.
Swiss hockey has come up strongly !! This year we are icing a team that is composed of a 1st draft that is keeping its promises (Hischier), a Big star Norris caliber player (Josi), some very good 2nd liners/could be first liners (Fiala, Kurashev, Andrighetto, to come Nino ...) we never had such a quality team !! The others are all players that could be borderline NHL !! And borderline NHL means good big ice + border line NHL !! (there is a big difference there ... that highlights versatility and multi talent) ... So the Swiss program has really been helping a lot.
And while we are not a country with natural ice (except in the mountains ... but who lives in the mountains ?? small portion of population) Hockey in gerneral is doing very well ... we have the biggest attendance in europe (Berne) ... and the NLA is a very attractive league among the world top leagues ... decent quality ... well rounded with no scandal and cozy environment. So our Swiss players don't want to go on a die hard AHL path !! it is NHL or AHL for NHL or NLA !!! so it is about time that the Swiss deliver international results !!
We also welcomed many hockey players ... who left traces and increased levels on local spots. As a center we trained some that became good. France has a hub through Switzerland ... and is doing better !! Even Danemark , the Ehlers family (coach and player (father and sohn)) passed through Switzerland. So actualy programs around us benefit from us ... not so much the inverse. (like Swiss canadians that would come and play for us !!). We are generating talents !!
Then , hockey is a very conservative environment. And we, (here on HF boards) all are hockey lovers. So we do not dare saying too much the truth ... we have a sense of political corectness and diplomaty that explaines why some come with a big 6 theory and 7a and 7b positions. It is to laugh ... . And we are proud about our country !! so we do not like if someone tells that For Ex : Swiss have been bypassed by Germany !! (exemple !) so this attitude puts A LOT of noise in establishing openly a ranking !! (assume we commonly agree what Number X means !!)
So still rolling on ... THE BIG SIX ... theory and ... is in my view obsolete. There is a new world order (hahahha conspiracy) ... yet i am serious ! Some nations remain big ... and others aren't anymore ! or are smaller or ... !!
LIke for exemple : Canada , USA, Russia, Sweden are undoubtly top nations or powerhouses. Finland is also part of them for some years now. We can see that the number of Czech or Slovak players have not been growing in number !! (NHLers produced) ... you have to see that the NHL is growing its numbers of foreign players ... the numbers of teams are increasing. Look at any NHL team and it is a menagery or a potential babel tower !! So if the numbers of international players (NHLers) produced by a country are constant, they are going back in reality !! Swiss have been massively increasing ... 10 years ago we had like 3 or 4. 1 in NHL or 2!! 1 in AHL and like 2 in junior legues ... today iti is like 30 players or more. One country that has grown a lot in recent years and that is still a bit under the radar is Germany !! and if Germans make and develop the same system than the Swiss, they will be a powerhouse ! they are not there yet. Latvia has a history of hockey ... and today a good coach but is a thiny country.
a bit of philosoph in this world of numbers and inexact facts
Czechs aren't "going more and more down", it's nonsense. Though still not particularly good, our situation is certainly better than 5 or 10 years ago. The weakest spot is obviously defense, there's only one player about whom I have little doubt that he's going to become a Top 4 D on his team in the NHL (Hronek), then Hájek, who by all accounts should have a very good shot of becoming a long-term NHL defenseman sooner or later. Then there's a grey zone of players who can make it to the NHL one day but who knows really (the likes of Zbořil, Mašín, Galvas...). Not an amazing pool but much better than in early 2010's when we had close to no one.
On offense, it's much better. Quite a few forwards between 17 - 21 years of age with a very realistic Top 6 potential: Nečas, Zadina, Chytil, Kaut, even the 2020 eligible Myšák and Pytlík, and possibly a few others. We also seem to have a ton of goaltending prospects. Lukáš Dostál, for instance, looks very promising though you never know with goalies.
On offense, it's much better. Quite a few forwards between 17 - 21 years of age with a very realistic Top 6 potential: Nečas, Zadina, Chytil, Kaut, even the 2020 eligible Myšák and Pytlík, and possibly a few others. We also seem to have a ton of goaltending prospects. Lukáš Dostál, for instance, looks very promising though you never know with goalies.
GX
Registered User
- Dec 28, 2011
- 939
- 284
Just a small note - I doubt there are any Europeans wishing to play AHL for any other reason than aiming at NHL. Salary and condition wise each major European league is better.
When I just look at drafted players it does make sense to look at a top 6, medium tier 7-8, and the rest. (Yes you could split the rest into more tiers if you want.
In the last 10 drafts (2009-2018) we have these numbers for the 7-8 tier:
Slovakia: 28 players, 1 from the first round, 6 from the second round ( 5 of those and 2 of the second rounders are from the 2009 draft)
Switzerland: 25 players, 6 from the first round, 2 from the second ( none in the 2009 draft)
The worst countries in the top 6 from a draft number, have the same numbers just from 2017-18 Finland or 2016-2018 Czech. So there is still a fairly large gap.
The best from the group below have 15 people drafted from 2009 to 2018, but 6 of those Germans are from the 2010 draft, so it seems like and outlier.
So you could argue that Swiss hockey are going up, but still a long way to go in terms of NHL depth compared with the top 6. The area that IMO makes the Swiss team have relative success at the world championship is the NLA league. It takes the second tier of players and creates a decent foundation that aren't the same liability as the 4th line can be for the lower teams, were a top player that cannot join is more difficult to replace.
The Swiss development also seems to have an edge on defense lately, something that seems to be more difficult for the teams outside of the top to develop
In the last 10 drafts (2009-2018) we have these numbers for the 7-8 tier:
Slovakia: 28 players, 1 from the first round, 6 from the second round ( 5 of those and 2 of the second rounders are from the 2009 draft)
Switzerland: 25 players, 6 from the first round, 2 from the second ( none in the 2009 draft)
The worst countries in the top 6 from a draft number, have the same numbers just from 2017-18 Finland or 2016-2018 Czech. So there is still a fairly large gap.
The best from the group below have 15 people drafted from 2009 to 2018, but 6 of those Germans are from the 2010 draft, so it seems like and outlier.
So you could argue that Swiss hockey are going up, but still a long way to go in terms of NHL depth compared with the top 6. The area that IMO makes the Swiss team have relative success at the world championship is the NLA league. It takes the second tier of players and creates a decent foundation that aren't the same liability as the 4th line can be for the lower teams, were a top player that cannot join is more difficult to replace.
The Swiss development also seems to have an edge on defense lately, something that seems to be more difficult for the teams outside of the top to develop
Swiss players are also more often late bloomers because school and education is much more important here while in other countries more players are focusing much earlier on sports only. It is known that the biggest issue for Switzerland is that at the early age-group (maybe 12-17) the gap opens up to the top-nations and afterwards we are able to close part of the gap but not all.
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
Threads like this make me sad. Combing teams just insults countries and their fan bases.
Some people just do not understand what international sports are about.
Some people just do not understand what international sports are about.
Macbanan
Registered User
Then I guess those fanbases are very easily insulted. Wouldn't bother me at all to imagine Sweden combined with anything.
Uncle Rotter
Registered User
That's just not true. Denmark currently have more young talent (22 years or younger) playing in SHL, AHL and college hockey than Latvia.
The only fluke Denmark has is how on earth Andersen became so good. If you look at the goalie position, this is where Denmark struggles a lot. We just dont have any top tier goalie talents, at all.
