Collapse of the PAC-12: Oregon State & Washington State left in the dust

PCSPounder

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but they HAVE the auto-bid; it's just on hiatus during the two-year waiver period, right? The top 5 conferences get autos. If it's the Top Six that get autos, they're golden.
Apparently there was something in the bylaws that the CFP has enforced saying the Pac-2 isn’t a current conference. Plus there’s no agreed structure starting in 2026.

In any event, there’s no assigned autobids. The top 5 rated conference champions get autobids, and it’ll be nearly impossible that two of them are G5. Strong possibility that this particular twist will carry over to 2026, but until there’s an agreement, don’t think we want to make that assumption.
 
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PCSPounder

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Plenty of states have a (state name) State or (state name) Tech as one of their top two college athletic programs. Nevada would just be joining them.
And plenty of states have University of State at City with a lot of those even existing in FBS or in D-1 overall. Though I’m verklempt that Indiana lost their sense of humor and changed the names of Indiana and Purdue Universities at Indianapolis and Fort Wayne to boring shorter names. C’mon, live a little.
 

PCSPounder

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Oregon State has been laying out some hints over the weekend, plus some other rumors are surfacing. It’s one thing when they were trying to portray the Pac-12 as sticking together last year and didn’t have a clue. This time, they got expansion right. So…

They outright say that 9 schools is the target. It was 8 schools 2-3 weeks ago, so don’t lock in your bets. They’re also saying that they’re trying to cinch this quickly… I would think they have nine months regarding any further Mountain West schools, but the inference is sooner than that. So forget Calford (for now… there’s also a long game to play) and watch the Nevada legislature for hints.

The number $100 million has surfaced as an annual rights fee, however it is devised. So $11 million, maybe up to $12.5 million per school per year if 8 vice 9? Maybe I consider that slightly optimistic, but the Mountain West 4 consider that a substantial increase. Where the rubber hits the road is whether $11 million brings in a Memphis and Tulane (vs the $7M they get from the AAC if I read correctly) when it’s more than possible the travel increase is in the $5 million range. Though Memphis may get underwritten by FedEx… the main question being whether the Pac becomes the most likely conference to produce the G5 participant in the CFP.

Like I parenthetically mentioned above, $100M and 9 is the short game. What happens afterward depends on how the Pac builds up the spine of this little shindig.
 

Big Z Man 1990

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Air Force is being wooed by the American.

If anything, their American membership should be football only like Army and Navy, and their other sports join the Patriot League to have conference rivalries with those two in Olympic sports as well.
 

KevFu

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Apparently there was something in the bylaws that the CFP has enforced saying the Pac-2 isn’t a current conference. Plus there’s no agreed structure starting in 2026.

In any event, there’s no assigned autobids. The top 5 rated conference champions get autobids, and it’ll be nearly impossible that two of them are G5. Strong possibility that this particular twist will carry over to 2026, but until there’s an agreement, don’t think we want to make that assumption.

That was my understanding, kind of. The new agreement for the 12-team playoff didn't strip the Pac-12 of their bid any differently than it stripped the other P4s of their bids. It's just that the Pac-12 is on hiatus for two years, so they just don't HAVE a conference champion.
 

KevFu

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Oregon State has been laying out some hints over the weekend, plus some other rumors are surfacing. It’s one thing when they were trying to portray the Pac-12 as sticking together last year and didn’t have a clue. This time, they got expansion right. So…

They outright say that 9 schools is the target. It was 8 schools 2-3 weeks ago, so don’t lock in your bets. They’re also saying that they’re trying to cinch this quickly… I would think they have nine months regarding any further Mountain West schools, but the inference is sooner than that. So forget Calford (for now… there’s also a long game to play) and watch the Nevada legislature for hints.

The number $100 million has surfaced as an annual rights fee, however it is devised. So $11 million, maybe up to $12.5 million per school per year if 8 vice 9? Maybe I consider that slightly optimistic, but the Mountain West 4 consider that a substantial increase. Where the rubber hits the road is whether $11 million brings in a Memphis and Tulane (vs the $7M they get from the AAC if I read correctly) when it’s more than possible the travel increase is in the $5 million range. Though Memphis may get underwritten by FedEx… the main question being whether the Pac becomes the most likely conference to produce the G5 participant in the CFP.

Like I parenthetically mentioned above, $100M and 9 is the short game. What happens afterward depends on how the Pac builds up the spine of this little shindig.

Very sound logic here. The thing that gives me pause -- and as I get older, I'm just not as dialed in to what schools are thinking these days. So much of what I see happening are just bad decisions when that never used to happen -- is that even if $11m per school in the Pac-12 is more than $7 million in the American, how is that enough to make a jump?

You'd be getting $6m more, total. Over six years. Until the AAC TV deal is up and you get a new one.

But the exposure, markets, people caring about your league (and thus the CFP ranking) is just going to be better in the AAC if you stay together. You're trading future potential for $1 million a year? And I can't imagine boosters are going to be that excited to give you money playing late games half the time.

I just don't see why Memphis, Tulane, UTSA or North Texas would make that move.


But hey, I also don't see why the new Pac-12 is paying basically the same amount of money to the "unwanted" MWC members to not be in a conference with them, when for the exact same amount of money, you'd have their TV rights and effectively kill their league. Instead you're giving them $120 to $200m when all is said and done, and leaving 4.5 schools to add FCS schools, grow FBS so there's even more competition and giving them the chance to grow into a league that's better than yours.
 
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KevFu

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Honestly the best argument to merge is eliminating backfill.

You have 8 to 10 schools who'd be willing to make the jump to FBS if there was a good conference home for them.

By not merging with the MWC and leaving the MWC needing members, you're basically guaranteeing at 7 to 12 of them join FBS; and telling about 30 schools to start their engines.
 

PCSPounder

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Very sound logic here. The thing that gives me pause -- and as I get older, I'm just not as dialed in to what schools are thinking these days. So much of what I see happening are just bad decisions when that never used to happen -- is that even if $11m per school in the Pac-12 is more than $7 million in the American, how is that enough to make a jump?

You'd be getting $6m more, total. Over six years. Until the AAC TV deal is up and you get a new one.

But the exposure, markets, people caring about your league (and thus the CFP ranking) is just going to be better in the AAC if you stay together. You're trading future potential for $1 million a year? And I can't imagine boosters are going to be that excited to give you money playing late games half the time.

I just don't see why Memphis, Tulane, UTSA or North Texas would make that move.


But hey, I also don't see why the new Pac-12 is paying basically the same amount of money to the "unwanted" MWC members to not be in a conference with them, when for the exact same amount of money, you'd have their TV rights and effectively kill their league. Instead you're giving them $120 to $200m when all is said and done, and leaving 4.5 schools to add FCS schools, grow FBS so there's even more competition and giving them the chance to grow into a league that's better than yours.
You might have missed a detail in regards to what you’re talking about. I’m trying to understand “when for the exact same amount of money, you’d have their TV rights and effectively kill their league.” I don’t understand the alternative you seem to have proposed. If OSU & WSU wait until 2026, they’d lose the Pac-12 loot. By getting to 6 now and trying to secure more practically this week (so it seems), they jump in front of the MWC for TV negotiation priority. Maybe the disheartening part is whispers that the Mountain West without the four jumpers are, according to insiders, worth “zero” in a contract. Rather curious to know how zero they’d be compared to CUSA and their $800,000 per school per year.
 

KevFu

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You might have missed a detail in regards to what you’re talking about. I’m trying to understand “when for the exact same amount of money, you’d have their TV rights and effectively kill their league.” I don’t understand the alternative you seem to have proposed. If OSU & WSU wait until 2026, they’d lose the Pac-12 loot. By getting to 6 now and trying to secure more practically this week (so it seems), they jump in front of the MWC for TV negotiation priority. Maybe the disheartening part is whispers that the Mountain West without the four jumpers are, according to insiders, worth “zero” in a contract. Rather curious to know how zero they’d be compared to CUSA and their $800,000 per school per year.

So what I mean by "For the same amount of money, you'd have their TV rights and effectively kill their league" is that it's just basic math.

Once they fell to two members, the smartest thing to do was MERGE with the MWC: Operate as the Pac-12 with the MWC commissioner in charge. Just change the logo on their office. The Pac-12 conference office fired for incompetence and their HQ closed and sold. (The Pac-12 offices are in downtown SF with enormous rent). Merge the assets of both conferences and operate as the Pac-12 or Pac-14**

There'd be 13.7 members (Hawai'i football is 0.7 because that's how the value distribution generally breaks down).

Instead of merging, they signed the scheduling deal which had a $43m penalty clause if they raided 4+ MWC members (which they did.

The MWC has a $17m exit fee if you give over a year's notice, but a $34m exit fee if you give less.

The reports are that:
A) The Pac-12 can get a $11m per school TV deal
B) They want 9 members for now (making it $100m total TV deal)
C) They didn't add UNLV because of politics (Can't leave Nevada behind) AND because
D) They can't take another MWC member until he MWC "reloads" or they risk litigation. Leaving MWC with 8 leaves their status as a conference intact, which means the MWC has no grounds to sue the Pac-12.
E) The Pac-12 doesn't want San Jose St (bad facilities, not competitive), Wyoming, Utah State and New Mexico (small markets not good enough) or Hawaii.


With me so far?

Okay. assume the AAC members won't join the Pac-12.
The Pac-12 waits until the MWC announces their replacements, THEN the Pac-12 will invite UNLV, Nevada and Air Force.

But the MWC knows that, and thus can wait until July 1st to announce UTEP and whomever. Which means the exit fee doubles for those three.

So we can now total up the burden that the new Pac-12 members will owe the MWC: First Four $17m each, Next three $34m each. $43m Raid Penalty = $213 million.

That money going to San Jose State, Wyoming, New Mexico, Utah State, and Hawai'i left behind in the Mountain West.


NOW, let's do the math on a merger Pac-14. I agree with you on the "If C-USA is worth $800,000 each" thing. So let's say PAC-14 would be a TV deal of $104 million to be divided among 13.7 schools.

Instead of $11.1 million each, the "Pac-12 First Nine" would only get $7.6 million each so they can pay the "Unwanted 4.7 MWC Schools."
The unwanted 4.7 MWC schools would be getting $31.5 million combined per year in TV money in the Pac-14.

Over 6 years, that's $189 million going to the unwanted MWC schools from the TV deal
Over 7 years, it's $220.5 million going to the unwanted MWC schools from the TV deal

But not merging is $213m going to the unwanted MWC schools from exit fees and penalties.

In other words, it's roughly the "same amount of money, you’d have their TV rights and effectively kill their league."

You'd also save money by using the MWC conference office instead of Downtown SF ($13m rent per year!).
By eliminating a conference, you're also creating more money from the sources that divided among the conferences: CFP payouts baseline fee to MWC is gone; the NCAA Tournament loot to the MWC auto bid is gone (You're making it easier by one at-large to make every NCAA Tournament).

AND you're keeping every FCS school -- some of whom are in your backyard -- in the FCS because the MWC doesn't exist to take their calls.

Do Boise St, Washington State, Colorado State and Fresno State really want Idaho, Eastern Washington, Northern Colorado and Sacramento State/UC Davis calling the Mountain West and joining FBS?

Even with the new Pac-12 schools likely maintaining superiority over the new MWC, it's still diluting all the shares of sources that conferences divide. There'd be another 6 to 14 FBS schools when the MWC and C-USA call up reinforcements.


It was and is smarter for the MWC/Pac-12 to just do a full merger than to pay $213 million to a weakened and rebuilding MWC.



(** - And after the merger, the Pac-14 should offer Gonzaga a spot to offset Hawai'i, but I didn't want to complicate the math with that so waited until now to say it).
 
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KevFu

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Sounds like Air Force is going to the AAC anyways

Air Force is almost certainly leaving the MWC.

The AAC wanting the Commander in Chief games under one umbrella, so that's being discussed now.

But if the Pac-12 lands Memphis, Tulane, UTSA and North Texas, then UNLV and Air Force are perfect for 12. You'd have good travel partners, balance of PTZ (6) vs MTZ (2) and CTZ (4). And pretty solid travel partners. So Air Force can pick that over a weakened AAC or a decimated MWC.

And if the Pac-12 doesn't land those from the AAC, they definitely need Air Force. So Air Force is the prettiest girl at the dance either way. No need to stay in the weakened MWC.
 

PCSPounder

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Nobody will join the Mountain West if they keep that exit fee. That conference is now in jeopardy.

The $11M per school offer is an offer to the Pac that would not be offered to the MWC. OSU and WSU would be looking at serious budget cuts at the $5M Boise State gets. That wasn’t an option.

How’s that for an answer?
 

GindyDraws

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Honestly the best argument to merge is eliminating backfill.

You have 8 to 10 schools who'd be willing to make the jump to FBS if there was a good conference home for them.

By not merging with the MWC and leaving the MWC needing members, you're basically guaranteeing at 7 to 12 of them join FBS; and telling about 30 schools to start their engines.
Wyoming fans are already preparing the Big Sky conference rivalry games. If you're on the outs, you might as well cut your losses.
 

KevFu

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Memphis to Pac12?

That's basically what I said only with less opinion included.

I said it would be $18m to leave the AAC for a $6 million profit over 6 years in the Pac-12.

SMU paid $25 million to leave the AAC. SMU had plenty of cash and was putting the G5 in the rear view, so it still could be less for Memphis/Tulane/UTSA.

I don't think that Memphis or Tulane should go. It really makes no sense for each school to make their own decision here. They need to talk and reach a conclusion together.

I think that UTSA COULD, because they're a "new" member of the American and might not be getting full AAC distribution at the moment; so their exit costs would be lower and the financial gain larger. And they're definitely third on the depth chart at the moment (Subject to change based on performance of course).
 

GKJ

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I think the Big 12 made a mistake not getting Tulane, but I guess that could still happen eventually.
 

GKJ

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Temple should have priority over North Texas and UTSA because they have history as a BCS AQ school and are in the largest market currently without P4 athletics, Philadelphia.
Dude, I’m telling you as a Philadelphian, nobody here f***ing cares about Temple. If they were worth a shit, they’d have been poached by the ACC or Big 12 by now.
 

Big Z Man 1990

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OK, so losing Air Force, Boise State, Colorado State, Fresno State, and San Diego State drops the MW to 6 full-time members.

Adding New Mexico State and UTEP brings that number back up to 8.

In addition to Seattle U. offsetting Hawaii's football only status, the one Big Sky school the MW should add is Weber State, which has made multiple FCS playoff appearances in recent years and would double down on a presence in Utah like the Big 12 has done with former MW members BYU and Utah.

This would bring the MW to 10 schools for both football and basketball, which could lead to a round-robin 9-game conference schedule for MW football (which I am fine for this conference but not P4 conferences).
These would be the games I want played on Thanksgiving weekend:

Hawaii-San Jose State
Nevada-UNLV
New Mexico-Wyoming
New Mexico State-UTEP
Utah State-Weber State
 

PCSPounder

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By the way… more than one report today saying that Utah State might be a Pac-12 target if Memphis and Tulane don’t go. Or the way it’s being reported in Utah, they’re a target.

Which… eh, not always enamored with Utah media. But I can’t discount the possibility that this is a signal about Memphis and Tulane.
 

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