Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/MINUS: Pens need a 40 goal lead to close it out! (Pens/Bs)

[markog]

The Petry deal looks pretty unremarkable thus far. Smith better be a legitimate top 4 dman.

I know that you love Petry, pixie. No need to praise him in a response. I had to hear how great Blueger was from you for years.

Our fan base would be laughing at any other team that extended a coach like Sullivan or most of the Pens’ off season moves.

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Icarium]

Can someone explain what happened to our PK? It was one of the best in the NHL for most of last season, then it became one of the worst and has remained so ever since. Do we miss ZAR that much? Do we still use the same tactics but other teams have figured them out? I seem to recall something about our goalies having unsustainably high save percentages on the PK back when it was top 3 in the league but can goaltending alone explain such a massive difference?
In other news, the bookmakers seem to think the Pens are favorites to win tonight. How can that be?!?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I’m curious outside of the coach and the core which would’ve been odd to break up why you think they are in a holding pattern?

They haven't done anything for years except swap a couple pieces around on the blueline for essentially the same effect. Rutta is the defensive-minded RD that replaces what Marino brought for the team, though with Letang and Petry, he's playing bottom pairing now as opposed to Marino being the 2RD--but Petts is playing 2LD and he's basically the LD version of what Marino brought, imo. They swapped Matheson and Petry, which more or less does the same thing imo. Petry is better, on paper, at producing offense directly whereas Matheson's the better skater and transition guy. They're both a shitshow defensively, and prone to absolutely braindead gaffes in the d-zone, either due to low hockey IQ or laziness. So you went from Matheson-Marino and Petts-Ruhwedel/Friedman or Petts-Marino and Matheson-Ruhwedel/Friedman to Petts-Petry and POJ-Rutta. I don't think that's really much different in the grand scheme of things.

They kept Rust, who I think was a prime candidate to try and sell high last season if they wanted to really make any kind of a change and reshape the top-6. But that was verboden, as Jake-Sid-Rust must always be, and being locked up for six seasons, Jake-Sid-Rust *will* always be.

I don't really care too much about the bottom-6 make up, as I think the years of overly caring about guys in that role are way in the past and the focus needs to be on getting Sid and Geno surrounded with the best help they can get. The bottom-6 hasn't been good enough to shift the tide of games in favor of the team, and it hasn't been bad enough to lose them games/series. It just is, and that's fine, imo. I think years of Staal's 3rd line, HBK, and Cullen as 4C have sorta skewed our expectations of what a bottom-6 needs to be. Those are extreme anomalies, imo.

I don't know. I'm not asking for a JR-esque mad scramble of throwing shit at the wall randomly to see what sticks at the cost of 1sts, prospects and hefty/lengthy FA deals. I'm just saying, seeing the team more or less the same as it's been going back to the Cups isn't exactly making me lean toward "They're trying super hard, they're still all-in" like they'd love everybody to believe. You've still got Sid, Geno, Jake, Rust in the top-6, but instead of Sheary and end-of-career Kunitz, you've got Rakell and Zucker/Heinen. You're still running with a blueline that's anchored by Dumo-Letang, and secondary layers of a mix of offensive and defensive guys providing a mediocre result. You're still dealing with inconsistencies and injuries in goal, whether it's Murray/Jarry or Jarry/CDS.

I wouldn't say I really care too much either way, because this is just the predictable decline of the end of an era. I'm just saying, the team hasn't really committed to an avenue one way or the other for years, but has more or less thrown cruise control on and coasted along the same path that's failed. That's not on Sully, Hextall or ownership solely, but a combination of all of the above.

 

[Andy99]

Can someone explain what happened to our PK? It was one of the best in the NHL for most of last season, then it became one of the worst and has remained so ever since. Do we miss ZAR that much? Do we still use the same tactics but other teams have figured them out? I seem to recall something about our goalies having unsustainably high save percentages on the PK back when it was top 3 in the league but can goaltending alone explain such a massive difference?
In other news, the bookmakers seem to think the Pens are favorites to win tonight. How can that be?!?

Jarry came back to earth…he was the reason it started out on fire for first half of last season

 

[eXile3]

It’s still early but I’m struggling to see this as an overreaction. If it doesn’t get any better by the end of this month they might seriously be faced with a preserve or pivot moment.

I don’t think they thought the wheels were going to fall off like this even if they knew a SC was a long shot.

 

[LOGiK]

It kind of feels like Hextall built a different defense than the one Sullivan coaches. Hextall went heavy and slower, Sullivan is still try to coach it like he has MM & Marino skating back there.

Sullivan is going to need to let go of this speed game. The team isn’t built for it anymore.

You're forgetting one thing... they are quick. Very quick to blow leads and games.

 

[LOGiK]

We're watching the 2011 era Red Wings. A slow, steady decline of a team locked into older players. Maybe they make the playoffs a couple more times, but it won't be anything more than a "Thanks for showing up, tee time's at 8am" trip to the post season anymore. Oh well. Can't complain after watching two of the best players ever to play hockey do their thing for almost 20 years, and scoring 3 Cups along the way.

Really though.... it sounds bad when you say it that way, best players in the world .... 20 years.... only 3 cups.
The Pittsburgh sports teams of late can't see to get their ducks in a row. Ineptitude all round. Win on star talent and win with that driving force alone. Never out-coaching for a win. It's _their_ game plan and either it works or doesn't.

Penguins were well coached for 2-3 years under Sullivan... and it's pretty obvious the message isn't getting across. This team is torn down the middle.... fractured.... and like many said previously.... the organization _just_ signed extensions after a string of nothing but disappointment when it matters most in the season.
eeeek.

 

[vikingGoalie]

new flash. we are old. we are playing like old people. old people have a harder time playing at 100% effort consistently. old people lose focus, get worn down quicker and aren't out skating anyone.

If jarry isn't on top of his game we get skunked. another news flash jarry hasn't been on top of his game for a little bit now. don't get me wrong, not blaming all this on Jarry just saying if our goalie has an off night our old folks aren't able to compensate for that.

maybe we are actually secretly tanking for Connor Bedard, which that might actually be worth the agony of tanking for...

 

[Empoleon8771]

It kind of feels like Hextall built a different defense than the one Sullivan coaches. Hextall went heavy and slower, Sullivan is still try to coach it like he has MM & Marino skating back there.

Sullivan is going to need to let go of this speed game. The team isn’t built for it anymore.

I actually don't quite agree with this. I think Rutta fits really well as a defensive guy in that kind of system and Petry himself is an extremely mobile defenseman. They did add size to the defense, but both of those guys fit well into the kind of system that Sullivan wants to run.

I think the main issue with the defense is that Letang, Dumoulin and Petry aren't playing nearly as well as they should be. They're getting shitty results compared to what they should be getting out of those 3 guys.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I told you guys, I'm rarely wrong. You just don't want to believe me.

I too, am extraordinarily humble

 

[ChaosAgent]

Really though.... it sounds bad when you say it that way, best players in the world .... 20 years.... only 3 cups.
The Pittsburgh sports teams of late can't see to get their ducks in a row. Ineptitude all round. Win on star talent and win with that driving force alone. Never out-coaching for a win. It's _their_ game plan and either it works or doesn't.

Penguins were well coached for 2-3 years under Sullivan... and it's pretty obvious the message isn't getting across. This team is torn down the middle.... fractured.... and like many said previously.... the organization _just_ signed extensions after a string of nothing but disappointment when it matters most in the season.
eeeek.

The NHL has incredible parity and in modern high level hockey the difference between elite and role player is narrower than ever. From that standpoint, 3/20 is really good. McDavid has clearly been best in the world for 4 years and has no team achievement to show for it

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

Can someone explain what happened to our PK? It was one of the best in the NHL for most of last season, then it became one of the worst and has remained so ever since. Do we miss ZAR that much? Do we still use the same tactics but other teams have figured them out? I seem to recall something about our goalies having unsustainably high save percentages on the PK back when it was top 3 in the league but can goaltending alone explain such a massive difference?
In other news, the bookmakers seem to think the Pens are favorites to win tonight. How can that be?!?

It is clearly the goddamn Robopenguin. Mario was right. We're screwed. Like getting high and playing with a Ouija board.

 

[Icarium]

Really though.... it sounds bad when you say it that way, best players in the world .... 20 years.... only 3 cups.

This isn't basketball, two great players can only do so much. See Oilers, Edmonton.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Really though.... it sounds bad when you say it that way, best players in the world .... 20 years.... only 3 cups.
The Pittsburgh sports teams of late can't see to get their ducks in a row. Ineptitude all round. Win on star talent and win with that driving force alone. Never out-coaching for a win. It's _their_ game plan and either it works or doesn't.

Penguins were well coached for 2-3 years under Sullivan... and it's pretty obvious the message isn't getting across. This team is torn down the middle.... fractured.... and like many said previously.... the organization _just_ signed extensions after a string of nothing but disappointment when it matters most in the season.
eeeek.

Wayne Gretzky had four Cups in 20 years, and for a chunk of his career, was on a team full of Hall of Fame players top to bottom. Mario Lemieux had two. Bobby Orr had two.

Maybe you have to adjust your expectations to a more reality-adjacent spot than whatever the hell you're expecting out of a core in the most parity-driven era of hockey.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Can someone explain what happened to our PK? It was one of the best in the NHL for most of last season, then it became one of the worst and has remained so ever since. Do we miss ZAR that much? Do we still use the same tactics but other teams have figured them out? I seem to recall something about our goalies having unsustainably high save percentages on the PK back when it was top 3 in the league but can goaltending alone explain such a massive difference?
In other news, the bookmakers seem to think the Pens are favorites to win tonight. How can that be?!?

It was an illusion bolstered by a hot goalie last year. It was always a paper tiger.

 

[Icarium]

It was an illusion bolstered by a hot goalie last year. It was always a paper tiger.

Yeah but this is Jarry we are talking about, not Hasek. Is his performance the only difference from top 3 to absolute disaster on the PK?

 

[Gurglesons]

The NHL has incredible parity and in modern high level hockey the difference between elite and role player is narrower than ever. From that standpoint, 3/20 is really good. McDavid has clearly been best in the world for 4 years and has no team achievement to show for it

Throw in Drai to that too who at worse is top 5.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Jarry came back to earth…he was the reason it started out on fire for first half of last season

That's maybe 20/25% of the reason.

PK tactics last year were at least a bit solid and had some rhyme and reason. They were emphatic about not letting the other team enter the zone to the extreme. Sometimes even pressuring at the other teams' blue line.

We also saw they stayed in a close box and prevented the cross ice or bumper pass. That seemed to be effective too. Then when ZAR got traded it seemed they changed tactics and the high forward was creeping to the point vs collapsing like it had been. That was when it started to really crumble bc the Rags fed on that in the playoffs.

This year, I honestly have no idea WTF they are doing. On the PK you cannot defend everywhere, you have to concede somewhere. But man this PK is conceding EVERYTHING. They cannot get on the same page...guys are hesitant and not knowing their roles or switches. I've seen HS teams more cohesive.

 

[Andy99]

Yeah but this is Jarry we are talking about, not Hasek. Is his performance the only difference from top 3 to absolute disaster on the PK?

Also missing Blueger, one of our best last season, and Dumo gets a lot of minutes and he’s a step slower…also Letang was really good on the PK and he’s getting fewer minutes there…but it’s the same scheme for better or worse…I don’t think the scheme is good…wedge +1 is a better one but whatever…mostly Jarry has been bad is #1 reason

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think a big reason the PK has been shit for so long is because Dumo's game is just 100% cratered and smoldering. Dude's rapidly approaching Scuderi levels of bad, and will be there in his next contract. I hope it's not with this team, but I got a nagging feeling it will be.

-edit- As for Jarry, he's never been anything more than a mediocre starting goalie with random streaks of getting hot and playing above his normal capability, imo. You just gotta hope the stars align so that one of his hot streaks coincides with the post season, and that he's able to avoid his frequent injury woes for a time.

 

[Andy99]

That's maybe 20/25% of the reason.

PK tactics last year were at least a bit solid and had some rhyme and reason. They were emphatic about not letting the other team enter the zone to the extreme. Sometimes even pressuring at the other teams' blue line.

We also saw they stayed in a close box and prevented the cross ice or bumper pass. That seemed to be effective too. Then when ZAR got traded it seemed they changed tactics and the high forward was creeping to the point vs collapsing like it had been. That was when it started to really crumble bc the Rags fed on that in the playoffs.

This year, I honestly have no idea WTF they are doing. On the PK you cannot defend everywhere, you have to concede somewhere. But man this PK is conceding EVERYTHING. They cannot get on the same page...guys are hesitant and not knowing their roles or switches. I've seen HS teams more cohesive.

It’s the same scheme, just lack of execution…see my post above

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah but this is Jarry we are talking about, not Hasek. Is his performance the only difference from top 3 to absolute disaster on the PK?

I think so, tbh, although weak competition and luck also play a role. The Pk was pretty dreadful towards the end of the season and the postseason last year.

And again Letang coming down to earth this year and other disappointing play isn’t helping. But last year’s bouts of statistical excellence covered up some serious warning signs IMO.

 

[LOGiK]

Wayne Gretzky had four Cups in 20 years, and for a chunk of his career, was on a team full of Hall of Fame players top to bottom. Mario Lemieux had two. Bobby Orr had two.

Maybe you have to adjust your expectations to a more reality-adjacent spot than whatever the hell you're expecting out of a core in the most parity-driven era of hockey.

Penguins could have had more cups and should have. 5 years of blowing chances and leads in the first round and that's just recently.

 

[Gurglesons]

Penguins could have had more cups and should have. 5 years of blowing chances and leads in the first round and that's just recently.

Not really sure how we could have had more cups. We have the most appearances and wins in the cap era.

 

[vodeni]

Can someone explain what happened to our PK? It was one of the best in the NHL for most of last season, then it became one of the worst and has remained so ever since. Do we miss ZAR that much? Do we still use the same tactics but other teams have figured them out? I seem to recall something about our goalies having unsustainably high save percentages on the PK back when it was top 3 in the league but can goaltending alone explain such a massive difference?
In other news, the bookmakers seem to think the Pens are favorites to win tonight. How can that be?!?

YES