Confirmed with Link: Coleman to Tampa Bay for 1st and Nolan Foote

[ninetyeight]

How many real ‘bubble team’ years have we had since 2012 though?

I was mainly refering to the era after our last cup win. It's been a slow decline ever since. Bunch of first round playoff exits, and then later on not making the playoffs at all. The 2012 cup run being the exception.

The 2011 draft could be considered a success in hindsight, even thought Larsson was a bit of a disappointment, he did get us Hall and now Bahl, Merkley and the pick. But other than that it's only the last 5 drafts that we've really been on better positions. And from those, we wasted one pick on Zacha and went to have another first round exit in 2018, fortunately we still got Smith out of that.

 

[NJDevs26]

I was mainly refering to the era after our last cup win. It's been a slow decline ever since. Bunch of first round playoff exits, and then later on not making the playoffs at all. The 2012 cup run being the exception.

The 2011 draft could be considered a success in hindsight, even thought Larsson was a bit of a disappointment, he did get us Hall and now Bahl, Merkley and the pick. But other than that it's only the last 5 drafts that we've really been on better positions. And from those, we wasted one pick on Zacha and went to have another first round exit in 2018, fortunately we still got Smith out of that.

It’s even more erroneous to call 2004-2012 ‘bubble teams’ though

2004 - 6th seed but only one point away from the third seed and the Stevens injury crapped out our season after a good first half

2006 - 3rd seed that won a round
2007 - 2nd seed, won a round
2008 - 4th seed
2009 - 3rd seed with 50 games of Clemmensen playing
2010 - 2nd seed
2012 - 6th seed but had over 100 points in a tough division and won three rounds.

People can complain we weren’t a ‘true contender’ most of those years but really other than the end of 2004 and 2008 you could have made a case for any of those teams going deep. 2008 was the only season we were even in remote danger of missing the playoffs in the last several weeks of the season and that was a crash after a great early start.

 

[ninetyeight]

Well ok then, call them what you want, but the fact still remains that ever since 2004 or so, the Devils kept getting older and the drafting failed to add new star pieces to the franchise. Naturally a lot of it is on bad drafting and scouting in general, but while the Devils were picking on #20-30, teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago had multiple top5 picks.

 

[Lou is God]

Well ok then, call them what you want, but the fact still remains that ever since 2004 or so, the Devils kept getting older and the drafting failed to add new star pieces to the franchise. Naturally a lot of it is on bad drafting and scouting in general, but while the Devils were picking on #20-30, teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago had multiple top5 picks.

The biggest flaw with our scouting/drafting under Lou was our Euro picks, after Petr Sykora was drafted in 1995, Lou and Conte went 0 for 38 in drafting Euro players, our drafting with North American skaters was better, but not good enough to make up for 0 for 38.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Guy's all class, Fitz handled giving the news and everything well too from the sounds of it.

 

[Better Call Sal]

There's a shirt?

He runs a whole shop (well, him and his sisters. Mostly his sisters lol):

Center for the New Jersey Devils | Blake Coleman

 

[StevenToddIves]

Guy's all class, Fitz handled giving the news and everything well too from the sounds of it.

I'm starting to feel quite strongly that "interim" needs to be removed from Tom Fitzgerald's GM title.

 

[jkrdevil]

The biggest flaw with our scouting/drafting under Lou was our Euro picks, after Petr Sykora was drafted in 1995, Lou and Conte went 0 for 38 in drafting Euro players, our drafting with North American skaters was better, but not good enough to make up for 0 for 38.

and Sýkora was drafted out of North America playing for the IHL’s Detroit Vipers.

 

[glenwo2]

He runs a whole shop (well, him and his sisters. Mostly his sisters lol):

Center for the New Jersey Devils | Blake Coleman

Yep. I imagine all he does is eat them and drink the juice.

 

[Camille the Eel]

You could certainly see his absence tonight. The second line has vanished. Gusev is really hung out there with nobody to work with and Gusev - being somewhat stationary - needs to be with someone who skates.

So I ask myself, what are the odds that anyone we get in this deal or with the pick ever develops into the player Coleman is? No guarantees here. Everyone is always so excited by picks. But how many of them pan out?

Coleman was the bird in the hand.

Watching the Devils tonight, it felt like the end of last season only in some ways worse.

 

[Nubmer6]

So I ask myself, what are the odds that anyone we get in this deal or with the pick ever develops into the player Coleman is? No guarantees here. Everyone is anyways so excited by picks. But how many of them pan out?

Coleman was the bird in the hand.

Well... I'm hoping in a few years Foote + whoever we pick will be markedly better than Coleman at that point.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Coleman will be on the decline by the time we are contending while on an expensive contract.

Foote’s ceiling is also higher offensively then what Coleman currently scores at.

It’s also entirely possible Coleman never has a season as good as this one again.

 

[Guttersniped]

The point of a rebuild is to gets several extra 1st and 2nd round picks to get a shot at very rare elite talent, rare top six/top pair, useful players and trade chips. The volume of picks, plus good drafting and luck, is what makes this miserable process occasionally successful.

Zacha was a bad pick but he’s been good enough to stumble and produce in 255 NHL games, the 12th most games played in the 2015 draft. Sketchy former 1st round picks retain trade value, we gave up a 2nd and a 4th for Mueller (15th overall) after he failed in San Jose. Even bad picks in the 1st round often have some value or use.

Also, if Cory was not so elite and we lost more games than maybe we win McDavid in 2015. Or maybe we only win less games than the Canes and still draft Zacha with the 5th pick. We would then also have the 35th pick though and Shero would have been able to draft a player he actually tried and failed to get, Sebastian Aho. That’s the luck part.

Rebuilds suck. Losing sucks. It all sucks. We need top players and this is how you draft them or get something valuable enough to trade for them.

 

[PizzaAndPucks]

Coleman will be on the decline by the time we are contending while on an expensive contract.

Foote’s ceiling is also higher offensively then what Coleman currently scores at.

It’s also entirely possible Coleman never has a season as good as this one again.

Look at the Avalanche and how fast they turned things around. Coleman would of been a good player to keep around...you know because he is an established player and not a lotto ticket. Not everyone hits a wall at age 33 in the NHL...

 

[Triumph]

You could certainly see his absence tonight. The second line has vanished. Gusev is really hung out there with nobody to work with and Gusev - being somewhat stationary - needs to be with someone who skates.

So I ask myself, what are the odds that anyone we get in this deal or with the pick ever develops into the player Coleman is? No guarantees here. Everyone is always so excited by picks. But how many of them pan out?

Coleman was the bird in the hand.

Watching the Devils tonight, it felt like the end of last season only in some ways worse.

It's unlikely the pick or Foote develops into a player as good as Coleman and it sucks to lose him. But if Foote or the pick (or both) become a good player, the Devils have them for 7 years.

 

[Unknown Caller]

Look at the Avalanche and how fast they turned things around. Coleman would of been a good player to keep around...you know because he is an established player and not a lotto ticket. Not everyone hits a wall at age 33 in the NHL...

The Avalanche turnaround started all the way back with Landeskog in 2011, followed by MacKinnon in 2013, then Rantanen in 2015 and finally the recent kids like Makar with the foundation fully in place. It took time, they didn’t just become contenders overnight.

Sports with salary caps are all about maximizing assets. Keeping an aging Coleman at his absolute peak with zero guarantee that he resigns in 18 months when he’s unrestricted would be atrocious asset management, especially when you consider the package that came back. And sure he’s a fan favorite, but let’s not act like we traded Patrik Elias in his prime here.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The Avalanche turnaround started all the way back with Landeskog in 2011, followed by MacKinnon in 2013, then Rantanen in 2015 and finally the recent kids like Makar with the foundation fully in place. It took time, they didn’t just become contenders overnight.

Sports with salary caps are all about maximizing assets. Keeping an aging Coleman at his absolute peak with zero guarantee that he resigns in 18 months when he’s unrestricted would be atrocious asset management, especially when you consider the package that came back. And sure he’s a fan favorite, but let’s not act like we traded Patrik Elias in his prime here.

Also Duchene in 2009 which they traded for Girad and the pick that became Byram. That is four top 4 picks that had a major impact on their current team.

 

[PizzaAndPucks]

The Avalanche turnaround started all the way back with Landeskog in 2011, followed by MacKinnon in 2013, then Rantanen in 2015 and finally the recent kids like Makar with the foundation fully in place. It took time, they didn’t just become contenders overnight.

Sports with salary caps are all about maximizing assets. Keeping an aging Coleman at his absolute peak with zero guarantee that he resigns in 18 months when he’s unrestricted would be atrocious asset management, especially when you consider the package that came back. And sure he’s a fan favorite, but let’s not act like we traded Patrik Elias in his prime here.

Ok buddy you are digging deep with the Landeskog pick , while you are at it we can dig back and talk about how drafting Larsson landed us Taylor Hall and so on and so forth....I had a good example of how a garbage team can turn things around with some good moves by management along with players developing to another level. Also the Avalanche made the playoffs WITHOUT Makar. It was an idea of things being able to change fast.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Ok buddy you are digging deep with the Landeskog pick , while you are at it we can dig back and talk about how drafting Larsson landed us Taylor Hall and so on and so forth....I had a good example of how a garbage team can turn things around with some good moves by management along with players developing to another level. Also the Avalanche made the playoffs WITHOUT Makar. It was an idea of things being able to change fast.

That was when they started building their core. It was not quick at all. They made small jumps then had terrible setbacks.

People were calling Mackinnon a bust. Then it started to come together.

 

[ninetyeight]

I ask myself, what are the odds that anyone we get in this deal or with the pick ever develops into the player Coleman is? No guarantees here. Everyone is always so excited by picks. But how many of them pan out?

Coleman was the bird in the hand.

Watching the Devils tonight, it felt like the end of last season only in some ways worse.

First of all it's just one game, away, against the defending champs, who have beaten us even with Coleman in the lineup for like 10 times in a row now. We just won a game without Coleman. The lack of perspective and amout of overreaction in these boards baffles me sometimes. When we win the team is great, the gm is great, the coach is great. When we lose it's nothing but doom and gloom, the franchise has been ruined for good.

The lines were all mixed up, Bratt was out, Hughes was on wing, 4th line was broken, basically every line has changed in few days. It takes time to find new combinations and chemistry. I agree that the 2nd line isn't working and that Coleman was the driving force in that line. Wood doesn't seem to be the answer, but maybe someone else is, maybe Merkley, Hughes, Zacha or Bratt gets it going. I'd also consider trading Gusev away if the line doesn't work. He'd bring good return, and I feel there's very little chance he resigns with us.

And yes there is no guarantee that any pick ever pans out, but the odds with Foote are good and worth taking. Let's remember it took Coleman almost 10 years to develop to what he is, people were even mad when he originally made the team instead of others. There's a huge chance he signs in Dallas in 1,5 years when he hits UFA. There's also no guarantee he keeps this level of play up for the next 5 years. For all we know he could be the next Clarkson.

 

[NJDevs26]

The Avalanche turnaround started all the way back with Landeskog in 2011, followed by MacKinnon in 2013, then Rantanen in 2015 and finally the recent kids like Makar with the foundation fully in place. It took time, they didn’t just become contenders overnight.

Sports with salary caps are all about maximizing assets. Keeping an aging Coleman at his absolute peak with zero guarantee that he resigns in 18 months when he’s unrestricted would be atrocious asset management, especially when you consider the package that came back. And sure he’s a fan favorite, but let’s not act like we traded Patrik Elias in his prime here.

The Avs also weren't dogmeat for the better part of a decade either, in fact they haven't had more than one or two bad seasons in a row at any one time. They had back-to-back seasons of 112 and 90 points in 2013-14 and 2014-15, it's not like they were completely devoid of proven talent two years later when they re-booted. You don't need to lose for ten-twelve years in a row to win again.

All that said, the Coleman deal was good value, now let's see the new management team make something of it.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

I really love him as a player. If he gets traded, it better be a ****ing haul.

Tell me as a Tampa fan, what to expect? Why was the price so high? Other then cap hit for next year

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

You could certainly see his absence tonight. The second line has vanished. Gusev is really hung out there with nobody to work with and Gusev - being somewhat stationary - needs to be with someone who skates.

So I ask myself, what are the odds that anyone we get in this deal or with the pick ever develops into the player Coleman is? No guarantees here. Everyone is always so excited by picks. But how many of them pan out?

Coleman was the bird in the hand.

Watching the Devils tonight, it felt like the end of last season only in some ways worse.

What guarantee is there that Coleman will be producing in 3 years or so? Those are the years the Devils are targeting. We saw how much trading picks for proven players like Subban and signing free agents like Simmonds guarantee winning this year.

Everyone knows this trade makes the Devils worse in the short run. Time frame trades can work for both teams. I know Blues fans were thrilled with the Shenn trade. He helped them win a Cup. My Flyer fan buddies are thrilled with it also since Farabee looks like he will be a good player in the years the Flyers were targeting to be a playoff team. They could care less they were marginally worse the last few years because of the trade. If Frost hits they like the trade even more.

 

[johnny pierogi]

Tell me as a Tampa fan, what to expect? Why was the price so high? Other then cap hit for next year

The cap hit is the major reason obviously, but he's a guy that was as of recently playing all situations for the Devils. He's always been a mainstay on the PK but was getting PP time lately as well. A lot of posters here think that if he'd been getting minutes on the PP all season he'd have closer to 30 goals right now. If he plays with some of your top end forwards you're going to see even more out of him. I was totally gutted when I found out he got traded because he was truly one of our only identity players, Palmieri and Hischier probably being the others.

 

[devilsblood]

All that said, the Coleman deal was good value, now let's see the new management team make something of it.

I think it's good value if you think you are losing him anyway, but if you think Coleman can be a guy you have around for awhile then I'd much rather have the proven guy.