Player Discussion Cole Caufield: The little man with the big future.

[Gillings]

Do the Canadiens make the playoffs?

Will the Arrival of a healthy Mike Matheson boost what is already a clicking line-up?

What can the Canadiens get from Brendan Gallagher on the trade market? Does he become TradeBait or LTIRetired?

Can the Canadiens find another solid dynamic playmaker next to Cole Caufield? If so, do you feel the habs find him on the D line or on his Opposite wing?

 

[417]

Well it made it a lot easier to compete and to build a better squad. No guarantees to winning but it's always nice to stack all the odds on your side.

But that's the General Manager's job...not the player's.

I'd argue that one of the most important variables in building a winner and eventually Cup winning team, is to lock down your best players and pay them what the market says they should.

IF Cole Caufield, like Brad Marchand, is amenable to taking a discount. Great.

But it shouldn't the expectation or nor should he be criticized if he doesn't feel he has too either.

I'm not sure how Caufield taking 1M less annually, just so Hughes can toss a bit more money at overpaid UFA's helps the Habs?

Paying your best players the money they deserve has never/will never be the issue.

It's paying the average players more than they deserve that's the real issue.

 

[Adriatic]

But that's the General Manager's job...not the player's.

I'd argue that one of the most important variables in building a winner and eventually Cup winning team, is to lock down your best players and pay them what the market says they should.

IF Cole Caufield, like Brad Marchand, is amenable to taking a discount. Great.

But it shouldn't the expectation or nor should he be criticized if he doesn't feel he has too either.

I'm not sure how Caufield taking 1M less annually, just so Hughes can toss a bit more money at overpaid UFA's helps the Habs?

Paying your best players the money they deserve has never/will never be the issue.

It's paying the average players more than they deserve that's the real issue.

But taking less money was Marchand's choice, so he made it his job to help build a competitive squad. I'm sure Bruins gm was willing to pay up for Marchand but he decided otherwise. I don't expect that from everybody but players that want to win will do it.

 

[417]

But taking less money was Marchand's choice, so he made it his job to help build a competitive squad. I'm sure Bruins gm was willing to pay up for Marchand but he decided otherwise. I don't expect that from everybody but players that want to win will do it.

Key word being "choice".

I think it's unfair to label players who don't want to take a discount as less committed to winning.

Once more, it is the GM's job to build a team. Not the player's.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

But that's the General Manager's job...not the player's.

I'd argue that one of the most important variables in building a winner and eventually Cup winning team, is to lock down your best players and pay them what the market says they should.

IF Cole Caufield, like Brad Marchand, is amenable to taking a discount. Great.

But it shouldn't the expectation or nor should he be criticized if he doesn't feel he has too either.

I'm not sure how Caufield taking 1M less annually, just so Hughes can toss a bit more money at overpaid UFA's helps the Habs?

Paying your best players the money they deserve has never/will never be the issue.

It's paying the average players more than they deserve that's the real issue.

It does add up in the end though.

Let say that Suzuki, Caufield and Dach are our forward core moving forward. If they all are on 1m “sweetheart” discount deals to help the team win, that’s 3m of liquid flexibility for the GM to add another impact player.

You remove a Drouin or Hoffman from the equation and you’re look at a 8m salary under the books by simply removing 1 underperforming commodity instead of trying to move two or three of them.

That could make or break a signing/trade for a player of PLD’s ilk.

I agree with what you’re saying though, but getting guys to buy in on a hometown discount to try and build a winner should be at the forefront of any GM’s agenda.

Would you rather be Toronto with this core:

Matthews 11m
Marner 11m
Tavares 11m

Or Montreal with this core:

Suzuki 7.8m
Caufield 7.8m
Dach 7m (example only, I know he currently makes less)
PLD 7.5m

Toronto paid their stars market value and they still can’t put together a winner, because outside of 4 forwards and Rielly they are a dumpster fire.

 

[Adriatic]

Key word being "choice".

I think it's unfair to label players who don't want to take a discount as less committed to winning.

Once more, it is the GM's job to build a team. Not the player's.

It's the gm's job but it can also be the player's choice to help the process along, I don't think that can be debated. Taking a little less money to increase your chances to win is pretty much as committed as you can get.

 

[417]

It does add up in the end though.

Yep, but that's the challenge of building a competitive team.

Let say that Suzuki, Caufield and Dach are our forward core moving forward. If they all are on 1m “sweetheart” discount deals to help the team win, that’s 3m of liquid flexibility for the GM to add another impact player.

You remove a Drouin or Hoffman from the equation and you’re look at a 8m salary under the books by simply removing 1 underperforming commodity instead of trying to move two or three of them.

That could make or break a signing/trade for a player of PLD’s ilk.

Entry-level contracts are where teams get "sweetheart" discount deals.

After that, you pretty much have to pay players their worth + whatever you project them to be. Or in the worst of cases, you're paying them for what they were (see Gallagher, Price).

In the example you gave above, the problem is the Drouin & Hoffman contracts. Not whatever Suzuki or Caufield or Dach will earn moving forward.

I agree with what you’re saying though, but getting guys to buy in on a hometown discount to try and build a winner should be at the forefront of any GM’s agenda.

I don't think GM's getting players to take "hometown" discounts is a strategy they do or should employ. It's more of a player thing, if the player is willing too, great.

It should never be expected or even demanded at the negotiating table. You should always approach players, as a GM, with a contract negotiation that represents their market value.

Would you rather be Toronto with this core:

Matthews 11m
Marner 11m
Tavares 11m

Or Montreal with this core:

Suzuki 7.8m
Caufield 7.8m
Dach 7m (example only, I know he currently makes less)
PLD 7.5m

Toronto paid their stars market value and they still can’t put together a winner, because outside of 4 forwards and Rielly they are a dumpster fire.

Toronto screwed up the moment they put their entire salary structure out of whack by signing John Tavares.

Furthermore, signing Matthews & Marner to shorter deals is what we want to avoid. So that's not quite the best example.

But to answer your hypothetical above. That's not quite how it would break down.

Suzuki 7.8M
Caufield 8.5M (let's just say for example)
Dach 3.3M
Dubois 7.5M (kind of a guess)

Even under this scenario, which again is purely hypothetical, the Habs still end up paying 4 players a total of just over 27M annually for 4 players, while the Leafs are paying over 33M for 3 players.

So the Habs have MORE than enough wiggle room to factor in a contract extension for Caufield that represents his market value IF the "hometown discount" option isn't available.

 

[CHfan1]

As far as Caufield’s next contract goes I’m more concerned with the term than the AAV. I’m hoping Caufield is signed for the max length 8 year term. I don’t think he should get more than Suzuki and a 8 year $63 million contract seems fair, but if he gets a bit more whatever.

Having two impact players in Suzuki and Caufield as Habs for the foreseeable future is vital to the Habs success.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

Yep, but that's the challenge of building a competitive team.

Entry-level contracts are where teams get "sweetheart" discount deals.

After that, you pretty much have to pay players their worth + whatever you project them to be. Or in the worst of cases, you're paying them for what they were (see Gallagher, Price).

In the example you gave above, the problem is the Drouin & Hoffman contracts. Not whatever Suzuki or Caufield or Dach will earn moving forward.

I don't think GM's getting players to take "hometown" discounts is a strategy they do or should employ. It's more of a player thing, if the player is willing too, great.

It should never be expected or even demanded at the negotiating table. You should always approach players, as a GM, with a contract negotiation that represents their market value.

Toronto screwed up the moment they put their entire salary structure out of whack by signing John Tavares.

Furthermore, signing Matthews & Marner to shorter deals is what we want to avoid. So that's not quite the best example.

But to answer your hypothetical above. That's not quite how it would break down.

Suzuki 7.8M
Caufield 8.5M (let's just say for example)
Dach 3.3M
Dubois 7.5M (kind of a guess)

Even under this scenario, which again is purely hypothetical, the Habs still end up paying 4 players a total of just over 27M annually for 4 players, while the Leafs are paying over 33M for 3 players.

So the Habs have MORE than enough wiggle room to factor in a contract extension for Caufield that represents his market value IF the "hometown discount" option isn't available.

It comes down to the salary structure being set and players buying into the structure. Now that the bar has been set to 7.8M for Suzuki, Hughes should try and set that as somewhat of a glass ceiling.

I’m not saying that Cole shouldn’t or couldn’t get more than Suzuki did, but I think it’s important to try and keep it as close and team friendly as possible. I think the 8.5m you mentioned is fair and respectful to both parties. But I think we both agree if Caufield finishes the year more or less as he’s pacing now (45-50g and ~PPG) he could be realistically worth 9.5-10.5m based on what others have got.

How do you feel about Caufield making 2m more than Suzuki? Personally, I don’t like it.

 

[417]

It's the gm's job but it can also be the player's choice to help the process along, I don't think that can be debated. Taking a little less money to increase your chances to win is pretty much as committed as you can get.

Well i've acknowled that several times now, that if Cole Caufield and his agent want to take that "hometown discount" approach.

That's amazing.

But IMO, it's unlikely (and personally, would be ill-advised).

How can you guarantee that Cole Caufield taking LESS money increases his chances to win?

Again, Patrice Bergeron took less money...the Bruins haven't won.

In the summer of 2013, Patrice Bergeron signed an 8 year 55M deal (6.875M/yr), so he took less so that he could help his GM build a better team around him. That contract expired this past summer, let's see how the Boston Bruins performed during those years where they were presumably, helped by Bergeron taking less.

2014-15: Missed the playoffs
2015-16: Missed the playoffs
2016-17: Lost in round 1
2017-18: Lost in round 2
2018-19: Lost in Finals
2019-20: Lost in round 2
2020-21: Lost in round 2
2021-22: Lost in round 1

So Bergeron did his job, took less, performed amazingly over that time.

Where's the promise of the team winning more as a result?

He lost out on millions of $ for one Finals appearance?

Again, i'm all about the player's maximizing their earnings over their careers. Go out and get paid, it's not your job to do the GM's job.

If a player goes out and performs and EARNS his market value, then he should be PAID his market value.

The only person who benefitted from Bergeron taking a discount was Jeremy Jacobs. That's it.

 

[Picaroon]

Call me crazy , but i just put a few dollars down on Caufield TO WIN the Rocket Richard trophy .


They gave me 44 to 1 odds.

Lay down $2 get back $88
Lay down $10 get back $440
Lay down $50 get back $2200

Got Guhle for the Calder at 84-1. Put a ten sheet on it.

 

[417]

It comes down to the salary structure being set and players buying into the structure. Now that the bar has been set to 7.8M for Suzuki, Hughes should try and set that as somewhat of a glass ceiling.

Glass is breakable lol

I’m not saying that Cole shouldn’t or couldn’t get more than Suzuki did, but I think it’s important to try and keep it as close and team friendly as possible. I think the 8.5m you mentioned is fair and respectful to both parties. But I think we both agree if Caufield finishes the year more or less as he’s pacing now (45-50g and ~PPG) he could be realistically worth 9.5-10.5m based on what others have got.

How do you feel about Caufield making 2m more than Suzuki? Personally, I don’t like it.

Why should that bother me?

If Caufield ends up signing 9.5M+, it means he had a historical season for the Habs and i'll sign up for that every day of the week.

I'd be thrilled.

One really, has nothing to do with the other.

When the Tampa Bay Lightning were negotiating with Mikhail Sergachev this past summer, they didn't use Victor Hedman as the glass ceiling and he's the best Dman in the NHL and has been for the past 6-7 years.

But Sergachev is gonna make 8.5M next season while Hedman is at 7.8M.

Do Lightning fans care?

Vasilevski: 9.5M
Kucherov: 9.5
Point 9.5
Stamkos: 8.5
Sergachev: 8.5
Hedman: 7.8M

Why are Habs fans acting like Cole Caufield making 8.5 or 9M is going to cripple their cap structure?

Let's say Caufield signed for 8.5M/yr...speaking right at this moment, that would put his cap hit 40th in the NHL amongst all players.

Why are we acting like he'd be breaking the bank? Not to mention the cap is rising...when the cap rises, salaries have to rise along with them. That's the system the players/owners negotiated.

 

[Adriatic]

Glass is breakable lol

Why should that bother me?

If Caufield ends up signing 9.5M+, it means he had a historical season for the Habs and i'll sign up for that every day of the week.

I'd be thrilled.

One really, has nothing to do with the other.

When the Tampa Bay Lightning were negotiating with Mikhail Sergachev this past summer, they didn't use Victor Hedman as the glass ceiling and he's the best Dman in the NHL and has been for the past 6-7 years.

But Sergachev is gonna make 8.5M next season while Hedman is at 7.8M.

Do Lightning fans care?

Vasilevski: 9.5M
Kucherov: 9.5
Point 9.5
Stamkos: 8.5
Sergachev: 8.5
Hedman: 7.8M

Why are Habs fans acting like Cole Caufield making 8.5 or 9M is going to cripple their cap structure?

Let's say Caufield signed for 8.5M/yr...speaking right at this moment, that would put his cap hit 40th in the NHL amongst all players.

Why are we acting like he'd be breaking the bank? Not to mention the cap is rising...when the cap rises, salaries have to rise along with them. That's the system the players/owners negotiated.

Apples and oranges. Hedman signed his contract in 2017 not one year before Serge.

 

[Matthew McConaughay]

Glass is breakable lol

Why should that bother me?

If Caufield ends up signing 9.5M+, it means he had a historical season for the Habs and i'll sign up for that every day of the week.

I'd be thrilled.

One really, has nothing to do with the other.

When the Tampa Bay Lightning were negotiating with Mikhail Sergachev this past summer, they didn't use Victor Hedman as the glass ceiling and he's the best Dman in the NHL and has been for the past 6-7 years.

But Sergachev is gonna make 8.5M next season while Hedman is at 7.8M.

Do Lightning fans care?

Vasilevski: 9.5M
Kucherov: 9.5
Point 9.5
Stamkos: 8.5
Sergachev: 8.5
Hedman: 7.8M

Why are Habs fans acting like Cole Caufield making 8.5 or 9M is going to cripple their cap structure?

Let's say Caufield signed for 8.5M/yr...speaking right at this moment, that would put his cap hit 40th in the NHL amongst all players.

Why are we acting like he'd be breaking the bank? Not to mention the cap is rising...when the cap rises, salaries have to rise along with them. That's the system the players/owners negotiated.

Sergachev won't keep the same pace all season, he's good, but not that good.

 

[Adriatic]

.

 

[417]

Apples and oranges. Hedman signed his contract in 2017 not last season.

And Suzuki signed his contract in 2021 (with a flat cap mind you), Caufield is gonna sign his contract in 2023.

So yeah…apples and oranges too.

 

[417]

Sergachev won't keep the same pace all season, he's good, but not that good.

He’s already signed his contract, that’s besides the point.

The point was he negotiated a deal that paid him more than Victor Herman because 98% of players want to maximize their earnings.

The Lightning didn’t stick to some arbitrary internal salary cap, they had a player they wanted to keep long term and paid him market value.

That’s how it works.

When the Bruins signed MacAvoy to his massive extension, they didn’t use Bergeron as the benchmark.

Great players, get a lot of money.

 

[MarioLeMoose]

Call me crazy , but i just put a few dollars down on Caufield TO WIN the Rocket Richard trophy .


They gave me 44 to 1 odds.

Lay down $2 get back $88
Lay down $10 get back $440
Lay down $50 get back $2200

Can’t go wrong at all with those odds. The kid does nothing but score goals and he’s getting better and better. Biggest drawback to his rocket chances is our PP. Even strength he scores as well as anyone.

 

[Adriatic]

7 million is max for him, not a penny more. Anything more and you're overpaying.

 

[Beaker]

7 million is max for him, not a penny more. Anything more and you're overpaying.

You’ll be disappointed

 

[Toene]

I give him 9x8 without hesitation. He's that good.

 

[habdynasty]

Sniper, first one in decades in Montreal.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

The AAV can definitely come down if he were to get a 6 year deal instead of 8. I personally think he'll do a 6 year if his agent is smart. So a fair contract is 7 AAV x 6 yrs

 

[salbutera]

I think guys like Bergeron and Marchand are the exceptions, not the norm. Pastrnak is going to get over 10 million. That being said, it's hard to justify giving him over 8 million with one elite season (not even half a season yet really). Kaprizov got 9 million and he's a much better player. 8x8 is reasonable for Cole.

Bergeron signed his last long term deal pre-skills competition NHL era which started circa 2015-2016 season, when he was a regular 50-60 pts C

 

[Deebs]

Sniper, first one in decades in Montreal.

Who was our last pure sniper? I'd like to say Max but I'm not sure he qualifies. Good goal scorer and everything but he couldn't score multiple ways.

Would it be Richer? That's so sad