Confirmed with Link: [COL, CAR, CHI] Rantanen-Hall to CAR, Necas-Drury-25 2nd-26 4th to COL, Chi 25 3rd to Chi (Ret 50% on Mikko)

[Foppa2118]

Honestly, I love Mikko but that's up for debate, and I'm not a huge fan of either player. But when they're on, they're play drivers.

Mikko is not a play driver. If he was, he'd have his money already. That's the #1 reason why the Avs moved him.

People that are OK with paying Mikko 13-14M need to ask themselves these questions:

1. Is Mikko Rantanen the best player on your team?
2. Are you comfortable paying a secondary player 13-14M?
3. If Mikko Rantanen is your best player, will you win the Stanley Cup?

I'm still adamant that the current version of Mikko was probably our 4th most important player. If Landy was healthy he'd likely be the 5th:

1a.&b.Mack & Makar
3 & 4. Toews and Nuke

In terms of importance to winning. People forget Mikko was a ghost for many playoff series - even the first couple of rounds during the Cup run. Last season his best game was the final Dallas game (too little too late). He's big and he can really help you in the offensive zone to set up and finish plays, but really doesn't provide much else.

In fact, I can see the rising cap as even more reason to move him. Rantanen's agent wasn't in a rush for negotiations and would likely use the fact that many other teams on the open market will now pay him in the realm of 14M, they would have extended discussions. They couldn't afford to risk letting him walk.

EDIT: And no, this isn't some post-trade cope. Check my post history if you'd like, I've been banging this drum for a year at least.

I get what you're saying, but I also think being a "play driver" is a bit of an overused phrase on HF.

However you want to define play driver, Mikko is a 55 goal scorer. You can't leach your way off MacKinnon to 55 goals.

Since 2012-13, there's only been seven 55+ goal scorers.

Mikko's career highs in points are 105, 104, 92, and 87 and he has career highs in goals of 55, 42, 36, and 31. This year, he's on a 41 goal 104 point pace.

EP has career high point totals of 102, 89, 68, and 66, with goal totals of 39, 34, 32, and 28. He's on a 20 goal 60 point pace this year.

Nylander has career high point totals of 98, 87, 80, and 59, with goal totals of 40, 40, 34, and 31. He's on pace this year for 47 goals and 82 points.

I'm ok with the trade, but I don't really see a case for EP or Nylander being better than Mikko.

 

[PAZ]

Why was so much secrecy so important? Worried another team (Canucks) would swoop in with a better offer?

Can't tell if this is a genuine question or a troll post with you

But this has been the Avs FO since... forever. But especially in this case they didn't want it being leaked that he was potentially being shopped. To me it sounds like there were a few options, where:

Plan A - re-sign Rants at $11.75 mil
Plan B - trade Rants if a suitable deal came up
Plan C - re-sign Rants between $12.5-14 mil

 

[Foppa2118]

Actually Mikko's second best season is 104 points.

If he stays healthy this year, he could have three seasons with more points than either EP or Nylander.

 

[Freaky Styley]

I get what you're saying, but I also think being a "play driver" is a bit of an overused phrase on HF.

However you want to define play driver, Mikko is a 55 goal scorer. You can't leach your way off MacKinnon to 55 goals.

Since 2012-13, there's only been seven 55+ goal scorers.

Mikko's career highs in points are 105, 102, 92, and 87 and he has career highs in goals of 55, 42, 36, and 31. This year, he's on a 41 goal 107 point pace.

EP has career high point totals of 102, 89, 68, and 66, with goal totals of 39, 34, 32, and 28. He's on a 20 goal 60 point pace this year.

Nylander has career high point totals of 98, 87, 80, and 59, with goal totals of 40, 40, 34, and 31. He's on pace this year for 47 goals and 82 points.

I'm ok with the trade, but I don't really see a case for EP or Nylander being better than Mikko.

I'm not saying EP or Nylander are better than Mikko. I said I'm not a huge fan of either guy, but if EP regains his form he's close (and younger) and plays a more important position. I also think Nylander is better at creating his own offense than Mikko.

That's all I'm saying, Mikkos isn't a great creator on his own, or at least hasn't been for about 2 years now. When Mack was injured a few years ago, he was dynamite, but that Mikko hasn't been around for a while. He's a finisher and offensive producer and that gets you paid but I'm not paying top dollar for a guy that isn't great at creating offense by himself.

With the minutes distribution and linemates Necas probably will produce similarly to Mikko making at least 6M less next season. Even after his next contract he'll still be paid less than Mikko while being a few years younger. That was always my justification - you can trade Mikko for a similar offensive weapon (+other assets), save money, age, while getting very similar production. CMac obviously agreed.

And as far as the EP/Nylander stuff goes.- Pastrnak is a better comp for me. I don't think Mikko is as good as Pastrnak, so I'm not paying him millions more. Canadian cities usually have to pay more to retain their stars.

 

[niwotsblessing]

The goal Necas scored yesterday is something I have not seen Moose do in quite some time. That illustrates part of the difference between them as players.

 

[Foppa2118]

I'm not saying EP or Nylander are better than Mikko. I said I'm not a huge fan of either guy, but if EP regains his form he's close (and younger) and plays a more important position. I also think Nylander is better at creating his own offense than Mikko.

That's all I'm saying, Mikkos isn't a great creator on his own, or at least hasn't been for about 2 years now. When Mack was injured a few years ago, he was dynamite, but that Mikko hasn't been around for a while. He's a finisher and offensive producer and that gets you paid but I'm not paying top dollar for a guy that isn't great at creating offense by himself.

With the minutes distribution and linemates Necas probably will produce similarly to Mikko making at least 6M less next season. Even after his next contract he'll still be paid less than Mikko while being a few years younger. That was always my justification - you can trade Mikko for a similar offensive weapon (+other assets), save money, age, while getting very similar production. CMac obviously agreed.

And as far as the EP/Nylander stuff goes.- Pastrnak is a better comp for me. I don't think Mikko is as good as Pastrnak, so I'm not paying him millions more. Canadian cities usually have to pay more to retain their stars.

Yes, but playing a more important position shouldn't get you the same or more money, if you're not really that close to being as good.

If EP regains his form, he's likely a point per game player. He's on a 60 point pace this year. That's a long way from 100+. His 102 point season was an outlier.

Mikko has two seasons with 100+ points at 105 and 104, and is on pace for a third with 104 again.

Pasta may be better, but as I mentioned his contract was 13.47% of the cap. If Mikko signed at $12.6M, it would be 12.99% of a $97M cap, which translates to about $500k less under the same cap.

 

[Freaky Styley]

Yes, but playing a more important position shouldn't get you the same or more money, if you're not really that close to being as good.

If EP regains his form, he's likely a point per game player. He's on a 60 point pace this year. That's a long way from 100+. His 102 point season was an outlier.

Mikko has two seasons with 100+ points at 105 and 104, and is on pace for a third with 104 again.

Pasta may be better, but as I mentioned his contract was 13.47% of the cap. If Mikko signed at $12.6M, it would be 12.99% of a $97M cap, which translates to about $500k less under the same cap.

EP is 26 and the Vancouver locker room has been toxic for a while. Next year will be the better indicator if it was an outlier or not, but 'back to form' indicates a ~100pt guy. And yes, centers get paid more for being centers.

I hear what you're saying but Mikko is going to get paid more than 12.6M with the rising cap. If he hadn't signed by now his agent would have waited until closer to the deadline to leverage a team like Chicago offering him 14M. If we were like Boston and Mikko was our best player it's a no-brainer. As I pointed out he's more around 5th in importance to this theam's success.

Who knows what the Avs final number was but obviously they weren't comfortable with the state of negotiations and didn't want to play that game, and they'll be better off for it IMO.

 

[Foppa2118]

EP is 26 and the Vancouver locker room has been toxic for a while. Next year will be the better indicator if it was an outlier or not, but 'back to form' indicates a ~100pt guy. And yes, centers get paid more for being centers.

I hear what you're saying but Mikko is going to get paid more than 12.6M with the rising cap. If he hadn't signed by now his agent would have waited until closer to the deadline to leverage a team like Chicago offering him 14M. If we were like Boston and Mikko was our best player it's a no-brainer. As I pointed out he's more around 5th in importance to this theam's success.

Who knows what the Avs final number was but obviously they weren't comfortable with the state of negotiations and didn't want to play that game, and they'll be better off for it IMO.

For the record if it wasn’t clear, I'm not upset they traded Mikko, or think it was a bad decision. I understand the rationale that it's hard to build a team with that many big salaries, especially with Cale's raise coming up.

I got the sense it was a possibility once Lavoie's report came out and even floated some trade ideas myself. I also think it could work well if they use his cap space on good players. Necas already looks like a great fit too and seems to have pretty good chemistry right off the bat with Nate.

I don't agree with a lot of the commentary about Mikko though. That he's super lazy or that he was greedy. I think $12.6M was totally fair for a player like Mikko given the market.

I think bigger players get unfairly called lazy too often, when at least some of it is optics, and style IMO.

I think it's very hard to play in today's NHL, let alone a Bednar team, and skate hard every game at Mikko’s size. You have to find ways to conserve your energy throughout games or seasons. This is what makes Val so special. Almost nobody else can have that kind of motor at his size, and I'm not totally sure it's all natural.

Mitts is half their size and it seems like he hit a wall halfway through the season trying to play all out every shift. The amount of force required for guy’s as big as Mikko or Val to skate their ass off and battle hard every shift, every game over a full season, is quite taxing on the body.

I think many learn the hard way after burning out during regular seasons or playoffs, they have to develop a style that allows them to still play at a high level, while skating the way it’s needed in today’s NHL at their size.

 

[Freaky Styley]

For the record if it wasn’t clear, I'm not upset they traded Mikko, or think it was a bad decision. I understand the rationale that it's hard to build a team with that many big salaries, especially with Cale's raise coming up.

I got the sense it was a possibility once Lavoie's report came out and even floated some trade ideas myself. I also think it could work well if they use his cap space on good players. Necas already looks like a great fit too and seems to have pretty good chemistry right off the bat with Nate.

I don't agree with a lot of the commentary about Mikko though. That he's super lazy or that he was greedy. I think $12.6M was totally fair for a player like Mikko given the market.

I think bigger players get unfairly called lazy too often, when at least some of it is optics, and style IMO.

I think it's very hard to play in today's NHL, let alone a Bednar team, and skate hard every game at Mikko’s size. You have to find ways to conserve your energy throughout games or seasons. This is what makes Val so special. Almost nobody else can have that kind of motor at his size, and I'm not totally sure it's all natural.

Mitts is half their size and it seems like he hit a wall halfway through the season trying to play all out every shift. The amount of force required for guy’s as big as Mikko or Val to skate their ass off and battle hard every shift, every game over a full season, is quite taxing on the body.

I think many learn the hard way after burning out during regular seasons or playoffs, they have to develop a style that allows them to still play at a high level, while skating the way it’s needed in today’s NHL at their size.

And I'm also not saying 12.6M isn't fair or market value for Mikko. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense for the Avs to have him sniffing 13M, and after watching Mikko the last couple of seasons I wouldn't be signing himto it.

I don't think he was greedy, I think his agent overplayed his hand with the Avs. And I don't think he's lazy per-se, but hasn't been as engaged/the difference maker he needs to be since the Cup win. It's definitely a fair point about size/Bednar's system. I think we see a more efficient Mikko in Carolina

 

[CobraAcesS]

For the record if it wasn’t clear, I'm not upset they traded Mikko, or think it was a bad decision. I understand the rationale that it's hard to build a team with that many big salaries, especially with Cale's raise coming up.

I got the sense it was a possibility once Lavoie's report came out and even floated some trade ideas myself. I also think it could work well if they use his cap space on good players. Necas already looks like a great fit too and seems to have pretty good chemistry right off the bat with Nate.

I don't agree with a lot of the commentary about Mikko though. That he's super lazy or that he was greedy. I think $12.6M was totally fair for a player like Mikko given the market.

I think bigger players get unfairly called lazy too often, when at least some of it is optics, and style IMO.

I think it's very hard to play in today's NHL, let alone a Bednar team, and skate hard every game at Mikko’s size. You have to find ways to conserve your energy throughout games or seasons. This is what makes Val so special. Almost nobody else can have that kind of motor at his size, and I'm not totally sure it's all natural.

Mitts is half their size and it seems like he hit a wall halfway through the season trying to play all out every shift. The amount of force required for guy’s as big as Mikko or Val to skate their ass off and battle hard every shift, every game over a full season, is quite taxing on the body.

I think many learn the hard way after burning out during regular seasons or playoffs, they have to develop a style that allows them to still play at a high level, while skating the way it’s needed in today’s NHL at their size.

Being 195 instead of 215 helps with that. Mack found that out the hard way.

 

[Foppa2118]

Being 195 instead of 215 helps with that. Mack found that out the hard way.

Yeah, at a certain point it's just a matter of physics. F = ma.

Easier for Nate to get down to around 200 lbs though than Mikko. Nate just had to go lean and cut down on the fat and carbs.

As a bigger man, Mikko would have to lose a lot of muscle mass to get to the same weight.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Yeah, at a certain point it's just a matter of physics.

Easier for Nate to get down to around 200 lbs though than Mikko. Nate just had to go lean and cut down on the fat and carbs.

As a bigger man, Mikko would have to lose a lot of muscle mass to get to the same weight.

Necas is 195, I bet he knows not to pack on a bunch of muscle at this point.

 

[Foppa2118]

Necas is 195, I bet he knows not to pack on a bunch of muscle at this point.

Yeah you can tell though, Necas is a tad shorter, and just isn't built quite the same as Mikko.

It's like Mitts vs MacKinnon. Mitts is is listed at 6'1" 195 lbs and Nate's listed at 6'0" 200 lbs, but they're just not built the same way. Nate's a tank. Mitts is a slender boi.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

The goal Necas scored yesterday is something I have not seen Moose do in quite some time. That illustrates part of the difference between them as players.

Necas is a creator. Mikko finisher.

If Necas could improve his scoring, he could reach next level with MacK. MacK would feed him a lot of goals and other way too.

Yeah you can tell though, Necas is a tad shorter, and just isn't built quite the same as Mikko.

It's like Mitts vs MacKinnon. Mitts is is listed at 6'1" 195 lbs and Nate's listed at 6'0" 200 lbs, but they're just not built the same way. Nate's a tank. Mitts is a slender boi.

Yeah its interesting. Its not about weight necessarily. It's about the core strength.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Necas is a creator. Mikko finisher.

If Necas could improve his scoring, he could reach next level with MacK. MacK would feed him a lot of goals and other way too.



Yeah its interesting. Its not about weight necessarily. It's about the core strength.

There is an opinion that his shot is good enough to pot 40 if you can get him to use it more too.

The Hejduk comp is looking pretty apt at the moment.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

There is an opinion that his shot is good enough to pot 40 if you can get him to use it more too.

I think so, but he likes passing. Don't mind if he becomes copy to MacK haha. That would be good too.

 

[Foppa2118]

It sounds like the the Avs were serious in signing Mikko if Rant's side accepted their offer. But trades are complicated, Tlusty was on record saying the deal was a very complicated dance and part of the negotiation was that there could be zero leaks about any of the negotiation. This implies they didn't already decide to trade him because a leak would've actually helped bring in more offers.

You can't sit down and tell Rants he may be expendable at the right price, because if the trade falls through than you have a player that knows they aren't valued. It wasn't 'we're trading Mikko regardless of the return' but rather 'we'll trade Mikko for the right return'. In this case it was Necas + Drury + picks which is a pretty damn good return all things considered.

If there weren't any decent offers on the table i'd bet CMac ups his offer or sets a deadline on when a deal needs to get done.

I disagree that it would have impacted the trade. Especially if done last minute.

In fact we kinda know it wouldn't, because It already leaked out that the Avs were thinking about trading him weeks before with the Lavoie report, and the Avs still got a good return. I think that leak might have come from the Avs to prepare fans a little bit too.

It's not like Carolina is gonna hear that the Avs were going to trade a player like Mikko and decide to reduce their offer thinking they have leverage. If anything, leaking out he's available would give the Avs leverage, and only increase the number of bidders and offers, from fans putting pressure on teams to acquire him.

I think the Avs might have done what I'm talking about anyway, but did it through the press, instead of directly with Mikko.

Doing it directly would have made sure everyone was on the same page, eliminated any potential bluffs, and shown a core player a little respect. I don't think they did it though, because I think the Avs were actually the ones bluffing that they wanted to re-sign him, unless he came with a pretty big discount for the market.

 

[NOTENOUGHRYJOTHINGS]

For the record if it wasn’t clear, I'm not upset they traded Mikko, or think it was a bad decision. I understand the rationale that it's hard to build a team with that many big salaries, especially with Cale's raise coming up.

I got the sense it was a possibility once Lavoie's report came out and even floated some trade ideas myself. I also think it could work well if they use his cap space on good players. Necas already looks like a great fit too and seems to have pretty good chemistry right off the bat with Nate.

I don't agree with a lot of the commentary about Mikko though. That he's super lazy or that he was greedy. I think $12.6M was totally fair for a player like Mikko given the market.

I think bigger players get unfairly called lazy too often, when at least some of it is optics, and style IMO.

I think it's very hard to play in today's NHL, let alone a Bednar team, and skate hard every game at Mikko’s size. You have to find ways to conserve your energy throughout games or seasons. This is what makes Val so special. Almost nobody else can have that kind of motor at his size, and I'm not totally sure it's all natural.

Mitts is half their size and it seems like he hit a wall halfway through the season trying to play all out every shift. The amount of force required for guy’s as big as Mikko or Val to skate their ass off and battle hard every shift, every game over a full season, is quite taxing on the body.

I think many learn the hard way after burning out during regular seasons or playoffs, they have to develop a style that allows them to still play at a high level, while skating the way it’s needed in today’s NHL at their size.

There is nothing unnatural about the leaves of the coca plant.

 

[Foppa2118]

Yeah its interesting. Its not about weight necessarily. It's about the core strength.

I think a lot of it is just natural muscle mass and bone structure too.

I also think they still like to bump up the listed weights for some guys.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I think a lot of it is just natural muscle mass and bone structure too.

I also think they still like to bump up the listed weights for some guys.

Not in Mikko's case.. if anything it's light.

 

[Foppa2118]

There is nothing unnatural about the leaves of the coca plant.

I don't really want to get into it, but that wasn't what I was referring to. Very hard to get super jacked with a low body fat percentage at the same time. I'll leave it at that.

 

[famicommander]

Mikko with a scoreless game.

Necas: 5 points in 4 games
Drury: 2 points in 4 games

Rantanen: 2 points in 4 games

 

[Foppa2118]

Not in Mikko's case.. if anything it's light.

Yeah I think they still fudge the numbers lower for bigger guys too.