TSN: Cody Ceci + Hapur + Luchuk and pick for Nikita Zeitsev + Brown + Carcone

[JungleBeat]

Murray Pam tweet

As always. Smh

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Lots of people wanted Harpur gone. He's gone. Pretty much everyone wanted Ceci gone and he's gone. Seems a lot of guys are saying Zaitsev>Ceci. Brown is a solid pro that enables some young guys to ripen. Carcone might end an NHLer.

I don't really get why this trade is causing so much angst.

And it looks like the Leafs paying the bonus creates the money to sign Hainsey.

Given our limited resources... all in all not a bad day.

 

[Yak]

Ottawa Make Beleafs , not a fan of the moves today at all. Seems like lateral moves with potential for Zaitsev to be a Ceci for next 4-5 years. Meh. Leafs owe us for taking their garbage off their hands. Good day in leaf land.

This could be kind of move that gets Dorion fired, so that is a real plus for us.

 

[BonkTastic]

Lots of people wanted Harpur gone. He's gone. Pretty much everyone wanted Ceci gone and he's gone. Seems a lot of guys are saying Zaitsev>Ceci. Brown is a solid pro that enables some young guys to ripen. Carcone might end an NHLer.

I don't really get why this trade is causing so much angst.

And it looks like the Leafs paying the bonus creates the money to sign Hainsey.

Given our limited resources... all in all not a bad day.

Here are the counterpoints I can think of:

1) If we really wanted Ceci gone, we could have just not qualified him. We didn't need to trade for a contract (Zaitsev) that, for the sake of being conservative, we can call "less than ideal in both term and cap hit", regardless of how you feel about his potential to turn around his game in Ottawa.

2) If we really wanted Harpur gone, we could have just buried him in the minors and not qualified him next year. It wouldn't have cost us any assets to do so.

3) Toronto just gave up a 1st round pick to get rid of Marleau. While Zaitsev isn't Marleau and their situations ren't completely analogous, there still exists an argument that the Leafs were prepared to pay a small ransom to rid themselves of that contract in order to get the rest of their house in order, that they were probably in a somewhat similar position with the Zaitsev contract as they were in the Marleau one, and we were in a position to leverage their cap crunch and failed to do so.

4) People are mad that we are handing out draft picks in exchange for cash considerations, which is something the league saw as gross enough to officially remove from officla NHL trades (ie: you used to be able to to include cash in trades - see Lindros, E. - which you can't do anymore as a way to attempt to even some playing fields). People feel as though this signals alterior motivations by the team - that the trade is financially motivated by the organization rather than motivated by hockey reasons.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Ottawa Make Beleafs , not a fan of the moves today at all. Seems like lateral moves with potential for Zaitsev to be a Ceci for next 4-5 years. Meh. Leafs owe us for taking their garbage off their hands. Good day in leaf land.

This could be kina move that gets Dorion fired, so that is a real plus for us.

That’s never going to happen to Melnyk’s surrogate.

 

[Yak]

That’s never going to happen to Melnyk’s surrogate.

Well when we are near the bottom or at the bottom of the standings this year will see how our bipolar Owner reacts. PD is a pro-scout not a GM.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

With the 80th pick (mid third round) in 2015, draft was Brent Gates.....

The player selected first, in the third round of the 2015 draft, was Robin Kovacs

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

You are wrong. Very very wrong. You have no understanding about this sport.

Please enlighten me. Show me the light Swiftwin. Formulate some kind of coherent thought or argument, I'll wait.

 

[Micklebot]

Lots of people wanted Harpur gone. He's gone. Pretty much everyone wanted Ceci gone and he's gone. Seems a lot of guys are saying Zaitsev>Ceci. Brown is a solid pro that enables some young guys to ripen. Carcone might end an NHLer.

I don't really get why this trade is causing so much angst.

And it looks like the Leafs paying the bonus creates the money to sign Hainsey.

Given our limited resources... all in all not a bad day.

Limited resources is exactly why getting zaitsev is a bad move. We traded our whipping boys for one of their's only their's is locked up for 5 years. Upgrade over Ceci, sure but we are still stuck with a bad contract for no reason.

We are banking on Zaitsev turning it around here. Maybe he does but a good 3rd liner isn't worth the risk when we are flooded with 3rd liners and lacking top 6 guys.

We criticized the leafs all year, doubly in the playoffs and rightly so, and now we have a third of them here, not the good ones though.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

Ottawa Make Beleafs , not a fan of the moves today at all. Seems like lateral moves with potential for Zaitsev to be a Ceci for next 4-5 years. Meh. Leafs owe us for taking their garbage off their hands. Good day in leaf land.

This could be kind of move that gets Dorion fired, so that is a real plus for us.

Not a chance. Do you know how much money he just saved his boss?

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Ottawa Make Beleafs , not a fan of the moves today at all. Seems like lateral moves with potential for Zaitsev to be a Ceci for next 4-5 years. Meh. Leafs owe us for taking their garbage off their hands. Good day in leaf land.

This could be kind of move that gets Dorion fired, so that is a real plus for us.

Zaitsev is better than Ceci so at least he'll mentor his partner a bit better. The biggest issue is we didnt get a pick back in return. That's what the whole thing should have been about.

 

[JD1]

Here are the counterpoints I can think of:

1) If we really wanted Ceci gone, we could have just not qualified him. We didn't need to trade for a contract (Zaitsev) that, for the sake of being conservative, we can call "less than ideal in both term and cap hit", regardless of how you feel about his potential to turn around his game in Ottawa.

2) If we really wanted Harpur gone, we could have just buried him in the minors and not qualified him next year. It wouldn't have cost us any assets to do so.

3) Toronto just gave up a 1st round pick to get rid of Marleau. While Zaitsev isn't Marleau and their situations ren't completely analogous, there still exists an argument that the Leafs were prepared to pay a small ransom to rid themselves of that contract in order to get the rest of their house in order, that they were probably in a somewhat similar position with the Zaitsev contract as they were in the Marleau one, and we were in a position to leverage their cap crunch and failed to do so.

4) People are mad that we are handing out draft picks in exchange for cash considerations, which is something the league saw as gross enough to officially remove from officla NHL trades (ie: you used to be able to to include cash in trades - see Lindros, E. - which you can't do anymore as a way to attempt to even some playing fields). People feel as though this signals alterior motivations by the team - that the trade is financially motivated by the organization rather than motivated by hockey reasons.

I think people are pretty hung up about a 3rd round pick.

Who pays for a bonus and how it impacts a return on a trade is not a new subject in the NHL. Ryan O'Reilly's trade last summer occurred July 1 and St.L paid the bonus.

Of course there is a financial motivation. We're a budget team. It comes with the territory. Could we have kept the 3rd and paid the bonus? Sure I suppose. But seems like that money was used on Hainsey.

 

[Viletho]

Don't worry I understand, this is not a new thing, Hawks or even Ottawa back then went through this. Need cap space to sign more important players. But if you are in the Sens shoes, and according to this board, Zaitsev is a major upgrade on Ceci who will cost 3.9 in real money for the next 5 years while Ceci would have cost AT THE MINIMUM 4.3 per year.

Connor Brown is a decent forward who was a bit buried in Leafs offensive depth so yeah he's a good sweetener.

Carcone and Luchuk are AHL players and cancel each others, but Carcone is more proven and should help the B-Sens more. Harpur was the worst D-man to me on the Sens after Borowiecki, he has interesting strengths but is lacking quickness to really succeed in the NHL.

Harpur + 3rd for Brown? I would have done that deal on its own. So basically Sens wanted to replace Ceci by a cheaper/better RHD already signed (3.9 x 5 seasons). All Zaitsev has to do is be better than Ceci, which really shouldn't be hard if you read this board the last 2-3 years.

It works well for both teams, Leafs should flip back Ceci to another team unless the cap saving from Brown-Zaitsev to Ceci-forward at a minimum salary were enough for them.

We are on the Senators side here, it's not about "for The Leafs", it's about what it does for the Sens



Oh you don't say. The same posters who complained non-stop about Ceci (and even insulted him without any barriers) are now crying that the Sens got fleeced? The irony is pure gold.

Zaitsev for Ceci
Brown for Harpur + 3rd?
Carcone for Luchuk?

Upgrade on all 3 parts of the deal. I could be mistaken though, because my evaluation of Ceci is somewhat influenced by this board's opinion. I have read countless times that he is garbage, he is terrible, he sucks, awful, etc. So seriously, I can't see how it's a bad deal for the Sens now? Or maybe it's just a whole lack of coherence of this board? Who knows?

Stop it with all that logic.

You can also add that the money we saved bring Hainsey. Who in my mind isn't that bad as a veteran presence. rather have him then Boro as the leadership presence.

 

[Yak]

Not a chance. Do you know how much money he just saved his boss?

Zaitsev contract will be no savings, he will be the Bobby Ryan /Zack Smith of our defense, untradeable contract.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Well when we are near the bottom or at the bottom of the standings this year will see how our bipolar Owner reacts. PD is a pro-scout not a GM.

I think you mean he'll get an extension. That was Melnyk's reaction to Dorion finishing 2nd last 2 years ago. He was rewarded for that.

 

[JD1]

Limited resources is exactly why getting zaitsev is a bad move. We traded our whipping boys for one of their's only their's is locked up for 5 years. Upgrade over Ceci, sure but we are still stuck with a bad contract for no reason.

We are banking on Zaitsev turning it around here. Maybe he does but a good 3rd liner isn't worth the risk when we are flooded with 3rd liners and lacking top 6 guys.

We criticized the leafs all year, doubly in the playoffs and rightly so, and now we have a third of them here, not the good ones though.

I'm not sure I agree that Zaitsev is an upgrade on Ceci. IF he is, the contract is bargain. He can't be both an upgrade on Ceci and a bad contract at the same time.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Senators acquire Zaitsev and Brown as Cody Ceci sent to Leafs in huge deal

Zaitsev asked for a trade at the end of the season and had to waive his “no move” clause to come to the Senators. It’s believed he agreed to the deal after having a heart-to-heart chat with Ottawa coach D.J. Smith last week. The two were together the last three years in Toronto and that’s a big reason why these talks started in the first place.

The deal had been in the works for the last two days and was all but completed Saturday, but had to wait until a $3 million bonus due to Zaitsev Monday was paid out along with another $500,000 collected by Brown. It made no sense for the Senators make the deal before the bonuses were due and every team in the league would have waited.

 

[Micklebot]

I think people are pretty hung up about a 3rd round pick.

Who pays for a bonus and how it impacts a return on a trade is not a new subject in the NHL. Ryan O'Reilly's trade last summer occurred July 1 and St.L paid the bonus.

Of course there is a financial motivation. We're a budget team. It comes with the territory. Could we have kept the 3rd and paid the bonus? Sure I suppose. But seems like that money was used on Hainsey.

People were panning the trade when it was rumoured just ceci for zaitsev and Brown. Nobody knew we were giving up a pick and the same pople hated it then.

 

[Micklebot]

I'm not sure I agree that Zaitsev is an upgrade on Ceci. IF he is, the contract is bargain. He can't be both an upgrade on Ceci and a bad contract at the same time.

Really, you don't see how flawed your logic is? Both can be bad contracts and one can still be a worse deal than the other

I can trade a ford pinto for a rusted out tempo thats constantly in the shop. Is it an upgrade? Sure maybe. Do i want either car? No.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Stop it with all that logic.

You can also add that the money we saved bring Hainsey. Who in my mind isn't that bad as a veteran presence. rather have him then Boro as the leadership presence.

He's fine... unless you pair him with Zaitsev where they become a sub 35% corsi for duo...

I'm kidding, Hainsey is terrible. These 2 were the 2 worst D on Toronto who were a poor defensive team. Our defense went from being the worst in the league to still being the worst in the league.

 

[Qward]

Zaitsevs corsi was -5 last season.
Ceci was -338

 

[JD1]

Really, you don't see how flawed your logic is? Both can be bad contracts and one can still be a worse deal than the other

I can trade a ford pinto for a rusted out tempo thats constantly in the shop. Is it an upgrade? Sure maybe. Do i want either car? No.

Sorry man... your example here is rather meaningless

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Sens apparently offered 4 x 4.5. That's a more than fair offer for what Ceci brings. Probably similar to what he'd get on the open market. I would not sign him to that contract in the Senators shoes though, too much uncertainty over his performance. I will say, I am probably less down on Ceci than most posters here. I think he will be a solid #4-5 for Toronto if they use him that way.

Ceci was asking 5-6 at 5-5.5. I don't think he was wrong to ask for that given how he has been used by the Senators, but I don't think he's worth that much. I would be surprised if he would get anything close to that on the open market today. Although, I think there's a possibility he gets more than that next year if the Leafs use him in a certain way and if he is a better fit in their system. I see it as a dynamic situation in terms of what Ceci is worth so I can see why both sides offered what they did.

Quote from Ceci....

“They have some pretty strong defencemen that they want me to play with and to help them out with shutting down other teams top lines. To hear that from them is pretty special and I’m just grateful for it,” Ceci said.

Not sure he is going to work as a shut down d-man. I'd like to see Toronto use him differently than Ottawa did, but maybe that isn't in the cards.

Also sounds like he expected to get traded. I remember there were rumblings at the deadline that a team was pursuing him.

 

[BondraTime]

With the 80th pick (mid third round) in 2015, draft was Brent Gates.....

The player selected first, in the third round of the 2015 draft, was Robin Kovacs

80th pick since 2010 (extremely foolish way to determine the value of a 3rd, nonetheless, the amount of great players taken within 5 picks of 80th is large...)

2010 - Bryan Rust (250+ games)
2011 - Andy Andreoff (160+ games)
2012 - Jake Patterson (0 games) (Matt Murray and Oscar Sunqvist taken with 2 of next 3 picks..)
2013 - Anthany Duclair (287+ games)
2014 - Louis Belpado (3 games) (Brayden Point taken 79th...)
2015 - Brent Gates (o games played, literally signed out of NCAA 3 months ago...)
2016 - Brendan Gignac (1 game, 0.5ppg D man in AHL, NHLer in 2019 or 2020)
2017 - Kirrill Ustimenko (0 games, just signed to play in AHL as a goalie. 20 years old)
2018 - Marcus Karlberg (0 Games, 19 years old).

Guys taken within a few (74-86) picks of the arbitrary 80th overall:
Brayden Point
Matt Murray
Oscar Sundqvist
Cody Eakin
Blake Coleman
Logan Shaw
Nick Shore
Josh Leivo
Shane Ghostebhere
Matt Grezlyk
Colton Parayko
Fredrick Anderson
Chandler Stephenson
Esa Lindell
Jake Guentzel
Pavel Buchenvich
Mattias Janmark
Sven Andrighetto
Anthony Cirelli
Joey Anderson

What was the point you were trying to make?

 

[Qward]

Also sounds like he expected to get traded.

Turris contract comes up, gets traded
Karlsson contract comes up, gets traded
Stones contract comes up, gets traded
Duchenes contract comes up, gets traded

Wonder why he felt that way.