CHL working on a deal with the NCAA, any truth?

[WarriorofTime]

To clear up the misinformation, the that needs to be addressed, and outright removed entirely is the one that just comes outright and says CHL teams are professional, no creative rule or "fast and loose" enforcement involved.

12.2.3.2.4 Major Junior A Ice Hockey. Ice hockey teams in the United States and Canada, classified by the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association as major junior A teams, are considered professional teams under NCAA legislation.

As far as why players can play in the World Juniors or even World Championships (see Cutter Gauthier and Lane Hutson playing for Team USA alongside NHL players, and then going back to NCAA), there is a provision that addresses that in place.

12.2.3.2.2 Professional Player as Team Member. An individual may participate with a professional on a team, provided the professional is not being paid by a professional team or league to play as a member of that team (e.g., summer basketball leagues with teams composed of both professional and amateur athletes).

No professional team (real professional like NHL or "professional" like the CHL) is assigning players to play in the World Juniors or World Championships, it's not part of their professional player obligations, and they aren't paid for it. The NHL DOES however "assign" players under professional contracts to the CHL. This is a big distinction and thus not a "loose" interpretation (in addition to just outright stating it)

Other things banned and makes you a professional league

12.1.2.1.1 Salary, Gratuity or Compensation. Any direct or indirect salary, gratuity or comparable compensation.

This is the issue NIL is dealing with right now, which is addressed in 12.4. Pay for play is not allowed, but it's getting there as it's occurring in all but name only. The CHL has the stipend/players receive a pay stub, pays sub-minimum wage because the Canadian governments said that's fine, but certainly looks and smells like a salary.

12.1.2.1.3.2 Educational Expenses from Outside Sports Team or Organization—After

Collegiate Enrollment. Educational expenses provided to an individual after initial collegiate enrollment by an outside sports team or organization that are based on any degree on the recipient’s athletics ability [except as specified in Bylaw 15.2.6.4-(h)], even if the funds are given to the institution to administer to the recipient.

"outside sports team", the CHL scholarship program based on years played in the league is right on the nose here.
Even if the CHL ridiculous contracts entered into with minors for little consideration are not enforceable, there is also this

12.2.5 Contracts and Compensation. An individual shall be ineligible for participation in an intercollegiate sport if he or she has entered into any kind of agreement to compete in professional athletics, either orally or in writing, regardless of the legal enforceability of that agreement.

Otherwise professional means any contract voids your eligibility, doesn't matter how enforceable it is.

 

[BadgerBruce]

The post right above mine by WarriorofTime should be read by everyone in this thread.

I’m not trying to go off topic — I had this post ready when I saw @WarriorofTime’s entry — so ignore mine if you wish.

A few thoughts about how the evolving status of US college athletes could impact international students, such as former CHL hockey players, in the near future.

First, F-1 Visa restrictions limit international students’ legal ability to earn money. With a few minor exceptions, the limit is 20 hours of work per week on-campus. Thus, NIL dollars are not available to international students.

Second, though this broad issue is not exactly new, the recent (February 05) National Labour Relations Board ruling at Dartmouth recognizes the players on the men’s basketball team as employees, not “amateur student-athletes,” and thus able to legally unionize and collectively bargain.

Alex Kirshner from Slate has a worthwhile article on the NLRB ruling here: College Athletes Just Got Even Closer to Becoming Employees

This line should get your attention: “Another real fear, one that appears likely to be realized on the Dartmouth basketball team, is that making college athletes into employees will wreak havoc on the visa status of international players.” To read about why, try this article in Sportico: Union Push Leaves Dartmouth International Players Up in the Air

Eye opening, and surely likely to impact international students who may not even be eligible to join a union (the negotiated benefits would exceed the F-1 visa restrictions).

All food for thought.

 

[bcspragu]

The post right above mine by WarriorofTime should be read by everyone in this thread.

I’m not trying to go off topic — I had this post ready when I saw @WarriorofTime’s entry — so ignore mine if you wish.

A few thoughts about how the evolving status of US college athletes could impact international students, such as former CHL hockey players, in the near future.

First, F-1 Visa restrictions limit international students’ legal ability to earn money. With a few minor exceptions, the limit is 20 hours of work per week on-campus. Thus, NIL dollars are not available to international students.

Second, though this broad issue is not exactly new, the recent (February 05) National Labour Relations Board ruling at Dartmouth recognizes the players on the men’s basketball team as employees, not “amateur student-athletes,” and thus able to legally unionize and collectively bargain.

Alex Kirshner from Slate has a worthwhile article on the NLRB ruling here: College Athletes Just Got Even Closer to Becoming Employees

This line should get your attention: “Another real fear, one that appears likely to be realized on the Dartmouth basketball team, is that making college athletes into employees will wreak havoc on the visa status of international players.” To read about why, try this article in Sportico: Union Push Leaves Dartmouth International Players Up in the Air

Eye opening, and surely likely to impact international students who may not even be eligible to join a union (the negotiated benefits would exceed the F-1 visa restrictions).

All food for thought.

So essentially if what I’m understanding is correct is that if the prevailing idea is that college athletes are employees, then it doesn’t matter that the NCAA considers the CHL a professional league, since all college athletes would then in turn be professionals as well. Opening the door for crossover.

Honestly I enjoy college hockey, hate the NCAA as an organization and am a fan of the CHL so seems like a win all around

 

[BadgerBruce]

So essentially if what I’m understanding is correct is that if the prevailing idea is that college athletes are employees, then it doesn’t matter that the NCAA considers the CHL a professional league, since all college athletes would then in turn be professionals as well. Opening the door for crossover.

Honestly I enjoy college hockey, hate the NCAA as an organization and am a fan of the CHL so seems like a win all around

My primary point is that non-US citizens (such as Canadian former CHLers) cannot “work” in the US under the provisions of the F-1 student visa.

 

[Oak]

So essentially if what I’m understanding is correct is that if the prevailing idea is that college athletes are employees, then it doesn’t matter that the NCAA considers the CHL a professional league, since all college athletes would then in turn be professionals as well. Opening the door for crossover.

Honestly I enjoy college hockey, hate the NCAA as an organization and am a fan of the CHL so seems like a win all around

Would be a beautiful thing bc NCAA can be gangsters with the way they treat student athletes. It's becoming a safer bet to sign a CHL contract than believe a college will honor their commitment.

Hockey will reap the benefits of what football players have suffered and fought for.

 

[Corso]

So essentially if what I’m understanding is correct is that if the prevailing idea is that college athletes are employees, then it doesn’t matter that the NCAA considers the CHL a professional league, since all college athletes would then in turn be professionals as well. Opening the door for crossover.

Honestly I enjoy college hockey, hate the NCAA as an organization and am a fan of the CHL so seems like a win all around

If the NLRB ruling stands after appeal, then yes, of course CHL players will become eligible because college athletics as you know it will cease to exist and will become simply another "minor league", albeit a very profitable and popular minor league. I'm not very confident that the ruling will stand, however, but if it does then CHL players will merely enter on P-1 visas.

What I am highly confident of is that the amateur model and rules in force by the NCAA will radically change. How much so? Enough that direct compensation (pay for play) will become a reality for the revenue sports.

NCAA president wants colleges to directly pay some student athletes

In a letter sent to more than 350 Division I schools Tuesday, NCAA President Charlie Baker said he wants to create a new tier of NCAA Division I sports.

www.nbcnews.com

Look, if the NLRB stands everything is moot because D-1 hockey will cease to exist as there are simply not enough schools that generate enough money to keep it viable. The question then becomes if the NCAA commissioner gets his way and separates a new tier of college athletics from the rest, then where does that leave most college hockey programs? Would only the big 10 teams make it? Right now, a lot of conference commissioners are opposed to Charlie Baker's plan of direct compensation for athletes in the top tier, but they wholeheartedly agree with his premise that the current amateur model has to be dismantled in order for some semblance of a new rule-based order to arise.

Hence in hockey the push to make CHL players eligible while throwing out the moribund rules currently keeping them out, Look I was told directly by a college coach that when all is said and done, do not be shocked to see college players at the end of the spring semester signing ATOs in the AHL and ECHL and then returning to play college hockey for the fall semester.

Yes, the changes coming could be that radical.

My primary point is that non-US citizens (such as Canadian former CHLers) cannot “work” in the US under the provisions of the F-1 student visa.

Would not be students any longer but rather employees

 

[bcspragu]

Would not be students any longer but rather employees

This. What I’m saying is they would just become employees on regular visas. It happens every day.

The NCAA can change its archaic rules tomorrow if they want to allow CHL players into the league. Best case scenario would be the elimination of the ncaa as an institution and a new organization overseeing a professional college sports program

 

[4thline]

My primary point is that non-US citizens (such as Canadian former CHLers) cannot “work” in the US under the provisions of the F-1 student visa.

But if they're deemed professional athletes wouldn't they be able to get *that* visa and be students while they work?

 

[MeHateHe]

They wont join the Hockey Canada umbrella, but they'll probably make some agreement that will at some point allow for the USHL to feature a team at a Memorial Cup as a member of USA Hockey. They already have some sort of CHL-USA Hockey prospect game coming up next season and if the CHL-NCAA barrier is coming down, the CHL-USHL barrier for Memorial Cup will also.

What incentive is there for the CHL to do this?

 

[Juniorhockeyguru]

What incentive is there for the CHL to do this?

All the top talent that wouldn't report, mostly will now.

 

[MeHateHe]

All the top talent that wouldn't report, mostly will now.

I mean why would the CHL want to let the USHL compete for the Memorial Cup?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Look I was told directly by a college coach that when all is said and done, do not be shocked to see college players at the end of the spring semester signing ATOs in the AHL and ECHL and then returning to play college hockey for the fall semester.

There is nothing like this anywhere in the NCAA. It is college football that has been the impetus for all of the various NIL-related reform, with men's basketball as the next behind. I doubt Men's Hockey occupies much, if any, headspace for the NCAA folks. I highly doubt such a drastic change towards NCAA rules on amateurism will ever occur in order to give hockey players an opportunity to play minor pro hockey.

Perhaps that day will come where players will sign ATOs, receive a per diem, be released and go back to NCAA, but it will likely be based around interpretation for rules that were built with football or basketball players in mind. Hockey won't be driving the bus on such a seismic level of change to college sports as we know it.

 

[Corso]

For those who fail to understand how fluid NCAA amateur rules can be (well really one poster here); please read this article posted on the Athletic

Once viewed as a threat, Overtime Elite now a valued resource for college coaches

Since introducing a scholarship option so players could retain eligibliity, OTE has become a recruiting hotbed, not just a college bypass.

theathletic.com

For those who do not subscribe the long and short of it is that OTE started off as direct competition to NCAA basketball, signing players to minimum salary deals of 100K. Major schools like Kentucky viewed this new upstart league as a massive threat. Eventually a compromise was reached. Players would have the option of either signing a professional contract with OTE or signing a contract that only offered a scholarship package and thus retaining NCAA eligibility.

In Year 1, all of Overtime’s players (most of them still in high school) signed professional contracts and were paid handsomely, thus forfeiting their NCAA eligibility. Thanks in part to the passage of NIL legislation, which allows college athletes to profit from their own personal brand, Year 2 has brought a second option for OTE players. Now, they can either take the guaranteed money and be pros or sign as scholarship students of the league’s in-house academy, where educational expenses are covered and they’re free to pursue NIL deals to earn income, thus maintaining NCAA eligibility.

So, you have "amateur" players signing on to play with and against professional players while still maintaining eligibility. Now if there are any real lawyers on this site, tell me, would you as the NCAA really attempt to argue in court that CHL players should remain ineligible because they play with and against professionals (similar to what OTE players do, similar to what several Euro players have done and all still are eligible) and receive a stipend that covers the cost of expenses to play (gas, food, other incidentals similar to what current NCAA athletes receive for cost of attendance)??

Sure, there is one poster on this site who thinks this is all a Hockey Canada conspiracy to take down the BCHL (laughable I know) but there are many insiders and even journalists (read Mike McMaohn's articles) who are saying this is all being driven by litigation or the fear of litigation.

One thing I do know from talking to more than one college hockey coach, is that there is support among many coaches to change the rules and allow for CHL eligibility. I also know that the NHL, USA Hockey, Hockey Canada and the CHL are all involved in the process as this really is going to be a sea change in the hockey landscape.

Here, I am speculating, there are many agents who despise the NCAA (like college hockey and think it's a great place for development but absolutely HATE the NCAA governing body and their archaic rules). I think that many of them are starting to make noise that a lawsuit is coming with the intention of tearing down many of the limitations that prevent not only CHL players from participating in the NCAA but also allowing for far more latitude in what current NCAA players are able to do.

 

[Bjindaho]

No professional team (real professional like NHL or "professional" like the CHL) is assigning players to play in the World Juniors or World Championships, it's not part of their professional player obligations, and they aren't paid for it. The NHL DOES however "assign" players under professional contracts to the CHL. This is a big distinction and thus not a "loose" interpretation (in addition to just outright stating it)

This is factually incorrect.

Case in point, Tristan Luneau was assigned to the WJHC by Anaheim and is still with Anaheim (he got sick, but the point remains that he was assigned by Anaheim). AFAIK, NHL teams still have to pay the player NHL money for the tournament.

 

[Bjindaho]

Ironically, NHL teams CANNOT pay players money to play in the CHL. The only money that a CHL player can receive is a signing bonus (at the time of signing).

I come back to the Charlie Coyle situation. Is there anything in place that would have stopped Coyle from signing with a USHL team for the second half (instead of Saint John), signing his ELC during the second half (like he did) and continuing to play in the USHL under the exact same conditions under which he played in the CHL?

It isn't a common situation, but does the USHL instantly kick the player out of the league if they sign an ELC to preserve this ridiculous status?

 

[Bjindaho]

A couple of things that could go hand in hand with this possibility.

It would lend itself well with the NHL changing the draft age from 18 to 19. Also, if the NHL changes the draft age, then they can also easily remove the Sep 21 cutoff (switching it to Dec 31). The cutoff is a legal one because anyone under 18 can't sign a contract, but if the players are 19, then that condition doesn't need to exist.

Also, if the draft age is 19 and any 20 in the CHL could move to the NCAA provided that they are good enough, the NCAA extended rights could apply to kids in the CHL who play NCAA.

 

[WarriorofTime]

This is factually incorrect.

Case in point, Tristan Luneau was assigned to the WJHC by Anaheim and is still with Anaheim (he got sick, but the point remains that he was assigned by Anaheim). AFAIK, NHL teams still have to pay the player NHL money for the tournament.

Think they’re technically “made available”. Dunno if they can “force” someone to go to the world juniors or have grounds for a breach if they just didn’t go. NCAA doesn’t seem to have ever considered that kind of stuff a professional league. Same with basketball players in the Olympics and other stuff. If Zach Edey plays for Canada, he won’t hurt his eligibility.

 

[Bjindaho]

Think they’re technically “made available”. Dunno if they can “force” someone to go to the world juniors or have grounds for a breach if they just didn’t go. NCAA doesn’t seem to have ever considered that kind of stuff a professional league. Same with basketball players in the Olympics and other stuff. If Zach Edey plays for Canada, he won’t hurt his eligibility.

It's a weird sitation, because there are so few sub 20 NHLers that could go to such a tournament and even less that would actually be assigned, but the clause of the rule itself seems to have precluded that an NHL team would assign a player to an in-season tournament as training.

The Olympics are weird because they are an offseason event. Imagine that there was, say an Under 23 invitational tournament hosted by someone like Overtime Elite and they invited NCAA teams. It would be in the best interest of Overtime Elite for their players to attend because it would help with their development.

Again, the whole problem is created by 12.2.3.2.4. If we take the logical understanding that an NCAA player should be have a signed ELC himself and that other players should not be earning wages on professional contracts (which they under currently contract rules they cannot), then that would protect the CHL and would theoretically allow the USHL to have signed players some day.

 

[WarriorofTime]

On the overtime elite topic, interesting case involving twins

Overtime Basketballers Sue NCAA After College Eligibility Denied

The moving target of what counts as name, image and likeness (NIL) is at issue in a federal lawsuit filed last week by two former Overtime Elite (OTE) players who are twin brothers and who contend …

www.sportico.com

They signed what appears to be the $100K salary option, now they’re trying to get into the ncaa. Notably they accepted “offers” from one of the worst ncaa teams, a good indication that ncaa coaches they wouldn’t be eligible. They are trying to cite to Robert Dillingham who received NIL comp out of overtime elite and was made eligible for Kentucky after a long and murky process.

The ncaa has wide discretion in determining eligibility into its organization. NIL was a game changer but the system is still being held up while the rules on amateurism and no pay for play are held up.

The provision directly states CHL is a professional league. It’s what needs to change. I think if ncaa does change (again we don’t know, all speculation for now) I think we may seeing something similar where there’s an option to preserve eligibility, which may involve waiving the right to per diem. Or perhaps the ncaa will just not care since it’s small amounts. Overtime Elite is working with ncaa to maintain eligibility and I suspect CHL would as well. I don’t think we will see a situation where players have professional (nhl) deals and are playing ncaa hockey anytime soon and if we ever do it will likely be as a result of changes that flow down from football or men’s basketball.

 

[WarriorofTime]

As I was saying, this is more speculative and doesn’t look like it’s happening. Maybe I’ll get an apology from a particularly overconfident poster…

 

[Hockeyville USA]

As I was saying, this is more speculative and doesn’t look like it’s happening. Maybe I’ll get an apology from a particularly overconfident poster…

Again, this screams USA Hockey protectionists influencing policy.