CHL can now play NCAA - change everything !

WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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Believe me, changes are coming to the CHL-NHL agreement.
Wasn't really my point, but agree, they pretty much have to. The smartest course would be to just do a universal 4-years or delayed until entering class's graduation (if they go college), increase spots on reserve list if teams are running up against that (not sure).
 

Hockeyville USA

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Wasn't really my point, but agree, they pretty much have to. The smartest course would be to just do a universal 4-years or delayed until entering class's graduation (if they go college), increase spots on reserve list if teams are running up against that (not sure).
4 years for all rights holding period makes most sense
 

Wieters

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Mar 2, 2024
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Just attempting to counter the widespread and ignorant POV that the CHL sucks and is a children’s league and the best place ever to develop is the ncaa.
You don't have to attack the NCAA in order to praise the CHL (and the same goes the other way too). This isn't a zero-sum game.
 

Breakers

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The main company for those NIL deals said a canadian would have been the highest last year above dion's kid but he was canadian, and he missed out on probably $4 million.

That unibrow kid in basketball who just got drafted

so no, they aren't getting that bag in the states if you're canadian and in the CHL and thinking about this.
 

WarriorofTime

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The main company for those NIL deals said a canadian would have been the highest last year above dion's kid but he was canadian, and he missed out on probably $4 million.
Zach Edey

fwiw, this can get fixed with a stroke of a pen, these are immigration regulations, they can write an exception in tomorrow. If Men's Basketball and Men's Football were flipped in their popularity levels in the States, this would have been fixed already. There just aren't really a lot of non-U.S. nationals in College Football where most of the money is, and people aren't too stressed about Punters. A Ray Guy Award Winner Aussie Punter on a blue blood that is in the national title hunt and it'll probably get more attention. Like 2023, the Iowa Punter (Australian) was amazing and the team had no offense, so he was getting a lot of attention. Take that same situation but for Michigan and people will be wanting to give him NIL.
 
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Blue and Green

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4 years for all rights holding period makes most sense
I doubt that the NHLPA would agree to this, and I don't think that the CHL would like it, either. Certainly not without an ELC offer on the table to the player. And when does the clock start? Draft age? Draft eligibility age? The adage of as simple as possible but not simpler seems to apply.
 
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Bjorn Le

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May 17, 2010
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The worst NCAA teams wipe the floor with any team in the CHL. It’s men vs boys and a massive disparity. CIS teams beat CHL teams, NCAA teams beat CIS teams.
The 2023-24 Stonehill squad wouldn’t win a single game against a competitive CHL team. You’re forgetting the bottom rungs of the NCAA are filled with players who wouldn’t have even made a CHL farm team (Junior B). The difference between a top NCAA team full of professional level talent and the bottom quartile of D1 hockey is a bigger gap than between the Florida Panthers and the Florida Everblades.
 
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WarriorofTime

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As I said, I believe that (for now) a good percentage of high-end American players will still choose to play college hockey for at least a year or two before signing. I don't expect that most players, however, will delay signing ELC just to play college hockey for a year.
Just not understanding how this is supposed to work.

Canadian Michael Hage says "I want to play in college at Michigan, that's a goal of mine and a thing I want to do"

He goes "well I can still play at Michigan if I go to Kitchener, the OHL team that drafted me 9th overall, I don't have to go move to the United States and play for Chicago in the USHL, so I'll reject my tender offer and sign with Kitchener"

So he gets drafted 1st round out of Kitchener in the OHL, and not Chicago in the USHL... but now he's signing his ELC and not going to Michigan at all?

It just doesn't make a lot of sense. Why is he going to the OHL at all if the OHL path means not going to college at Michigan where he wanted to go all along? Somehow going to the CHL to retain NCAA eligibility results in... less notable players playing NCAA than before? That's saying there will be a built-in inefficiency to the process.
 

Hockeyville USA

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Just not understanding how this is supposed to work.

Canadian Michael Hage says "I want to play in college at Michigan, that's a goal of mine and a thing I want to do"

He goes "well I can still play at Michigan if I go to Kitchener, the OHL team that drafted me 9th overall, I don't have to go move to the United States and play for Chicago in the USHL, so I'll reject my tender offer and sign with Kitchener"

So he gets drafted 1st round out of Kitchener in the OHL, and not Chicago in the USHL... but now he's signing his ELC and not going to Michigan at all?

It just doesn't make a lot of sense. Why is he going to the OHL at all if the OHL path means not going to college at Michigan where he wanted to go all along? Somehow going to the CHL to retain NCAA eligibility results in... less notable players playing NCAA than before? That's saying there will be a built-in inefficiency to the process.
This will basically turn into a slightly different version of what we see in baseball: HS kids have NCAA commitments, most go through, but the top end guys just sign right away and skip the NCAA to turn pro.

Difference is in hockey, ELCs are all the same money basically and you can still go to the NCAA and the team who drafts you retains your rights for X period of time. CHL-NHL Agreement will need to get reworked a bit, CBA changes, and tons of butterfly effects.

The Court ruling just gives kids more options. How they pick and leverage their options is up to them, and agreements will dictate outcomes to certain extents.
 
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Wieters

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Mar 2, 2024
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Just not understanding how this is supposed to work.

Canadian Michael Hage says "I want to play in college at Michigan, that's a goal of mine and a thing I want to do"

He goes "well I can still play at Michigan if I go to Kitchener, the OHL team that drafted me 9th overall, I don't have to go move to the United States and play for Chicago in the USHL, so I'll reject my tender offer and sign with Kitchener"

So he gets drafted 1st round out of Kitchener in the OHL, and not Chicago in the USHL... but now he's signing his ELC and not going to Michigan at all?

It just doesn't make a lot of sense. Why is he going to the OHL at all if the OHL path means not going to college at Michigan where he wanted to go all along? Somehow going to the CHL to retain NCAA eligibility results in... less notable players playing NCAA than before? That's saying there will be a built-in inefficiency to the process.
People here seem to think that the exclusive consideration for all prospects is what the optimal path is to get to the NHL as soon as humanly possible. I suppose it makes sense to conclude that is the case from the vantage point of a fan who is tracking these prospects' career arcs, but it does not seem connected to the reality that these are kids and some of them have ambitions that go beyond making decisions that maximize their chances of reaching the NHL at the youngest age they possibly could.
 

WarriorofTime

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This will basically turn into a slightly different version of what we see in baseball: HS kids have NCAA commitments, most go through, but the top end guys just sign right away and skip the NCAA to turn pro.

Difference is in hockey, ELCs are all the same money basically and you can still go to the NCAA and the team who drafts you retains your rights for X period of time. CHL-NHL Agreement will need to get reworked a bit, CBA changes, and tons of butterfly effects.

The Court ruling just gives kids more options. How they pick and leverage their options is up to them, and agreements will dictate outcomes to certain extents.
In the case of a kid like Hage, he could have signed an ELC over the summer, he could sign an ELC today, he could sign an ELC tomorrow. While signing an ELC and going to training camp is a nice little present, it’s also not a huge deal because all but the tippy top have their agreement slid and they’re sent back to juniors anyways so unless they’re a formerly ncaa player they aren’t really turning pro yet.
 

wickedwitch

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Mar 21, 2010
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There are a lot of ways this could play out, but the one I cannot imagine is that the NCAA will end up with less talent. That is completely illogical. It may not gain talent, but it definitely won't lose it.
 
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Corso

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Aug 13, 2018
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Just not understanding how this is supposed to work.

Canadian Michael Hage says "I want to play in college at Michigan, that's a goal of mine and a thing I want to do"

He goes "well I can still play at Michigan if I go to Kitchener, the OHL team that drafted me 9th overall, I don't have to go move to the United States and play for Chicago in the USHL, so I'll reject my tender offer and sign with Kitchener"

So he gets drafted 1st round out of Kitchener in the OHL, and not Chicago in the USHL... but now he's signing his ELC and not going to Michigan at all?

It just doesn't make a lot of sense. Why is he going to the OHL at all if the OHL path means not going to college at Michigan where he wanted to go all along? Somehow going to the CHL to retain NCAA eligibility results in... less notable players playing NCAA than before? That's saying there will be a built-in inefficiency to the process.

Hage made the decision to go the college route and forgo the OHL at 15. He was locked on to that path. He entered a league, the USHL, that had a strong working relationship with the NCAA as a whole and a team that had a strong working relationship with some prominent programs, specifically Michigan. Chicago knew Hage would be gone at 18 and the league as a whole encouraged players to play college as soon as they were ready and celebrated that fact. Hage, drafted near the end of the first round, could have signed an ELC but knew he wasn't ready for the AHL and why sign now only to have to play in the OHL, a decision that he decided against three years prior.

Fast forward to today. Hage no longer has to make the decision between playing in the OHL or the NCAA. He now has the opportunity to do both so he gladly reports to Kitchener, with a verbal commitment in hand from Michigan. The OHL, however, is not the USHL and Kitchener is certainly not Chicago. He is in an environment that has a completely different culture, one that is focused first and foremost on advancing to the pro game.

He plays two years for the Rangers, enjoying a rabid fan base. with well over 5k fans coming to see him every home game and a ton of media attention to go along with it (unlike what he experienced playing for the Steel and the USHL where he played in an empty arena). The coaching staff at Kitchener is top notch and he has access to all the bells and whistles expected for high end players. He is still thinking about playing for Michigan though but wants to see how the draft goes. He's drafted 21st overall by his favorite NHL team and now he has a decsion to make. Unlike what his USHL club was telling him, Kitchener is urging him to hold off on going to Michigan just yet. They are telling him, hey why don't you attend the Habs rookie camp and see how that goes. He does so and really enjoys it. The Rangers then tell him, hey why enroll in school just yet, you have a great thing going here so why don't you attend the main camp and who knows, maybe you might even get to play some games with the big club and just remember we will still be here waiting for you.
Let's also say that by now the CHL-NHL agreement has changed, allowing 18 year old players the opportunity to play at least part of the year in the AHL. So Kitchener and his agent say, hey why not sign, earn a nice signing bonus, play a bit in the AHL and by the time you come back to us, we will hand you the captaincy. So Hage does just that and never makes it to Michigan.

Now who knows, maybe Hage does make it to Michigan but there is now a distinct possibility that he doesn't because he is playing in a league that does not see itself nor want to be a feeder system to the NCAA. What the CHL wants above all else, is for the NCAA to be nothing more than a fall back option.

Can't imagine that helping Canadians to make NIL money is on the State Department's list of priorities.

LOL no it's not but remember, we are talking hockey here and NIL deals in hockey aren't worth all that much to begin with for the vast majority of players.
 
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WarriorofTime

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Hage made the decision to go the college route and forgo the OHL at 15. He was locked on to that path.
Hage could have changed his mind at any point and they would have found a spot for him. He could leave Michigan tomorrow and play for Kitchener the next game.
 

Corso

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Hage could have changed his mind at any point and they would have found a spot for him. He could leave Michigan tomorrow and play for Kitchener the next game.

But he wasn't playing for a team that was encouraging him not to go to college. Kitchener and just about any CHL team will do everything in their power to discourage their players from leaving early to the NCAA. That is the fundamental difference.
 
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Leviathan899

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There are a lot of ways this could play out, but the one I cannot imagine is that the NCAA will end up with less talent. That is completely illogical. It may not gain talent, but it definitely won't lose it.
When I say less talent I meant that the American birth years which will soon make up most of ncaa hockey, the 06-08, are not strong for the US. It had some golden years with the 04’s being elite and some high end 05’s like Buium, Leonard, Smith, Perrault, but after this season they’ll all be gone. The 07’s from the NTDP, which are all committed to the best schools, are not a strong group. That’s what I mean when the quality will drop. But could he offset by good 20-21 year olds from the CHL, like a Donovan McCoy.
 
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WarriorofTime

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When I say less talent I meant that the American birth years which will soon make up most of ncaa hockey, the 06-08, are not strong for the US. It had some golden years with the 04’s being elite and some high end 05’s like Buium, Leonard, Smith, Perrault, but after this season they’ll all be gone. The 07’s from the NTDP, which are all committed to the best schools, are not a strong group. That’s what I mean when the quality will drop. But could he offset by good 20-21 year olds from the CHL, like a Donovan McCoy.
One bad USNTDP class and everyone is ready to shovel dirt on U.S. Hockey and ignore a 5-decade trend of uptick in terms of NHL numbers :laugh:
 
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Leviathan899

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Hage made the decision to go the college route and forgo the OHL at 15. He was locked on to that path. He entered a league, the USHL, that had a strong working relationship with the NCAA as a whole and a team that had a strong working relationship with some prominent programs, specifically Michigan. Chicago knew Hage would be gone at 18 and the league as a whole encouraged players to play college as soon as they were ready and celebrated that fact. Hage, drafted near the end of the first round, could have signed an ELC but knew he wasn't ready for the AHL and why sign now only to have to play in the OHL, a decision that he decided against three years prior.

Fast forward to today. Hage no longer has to make the decision between playing in the OHL or the NCAA. He now has the opportunity to do both so he gladly reports to Kitchener, with a verbal commitment in hand from Michigan. The OHL, however, is not the USHL and Kitchener is certainly not Chicago. He is in an environment that has a completely different culture, one that is focused first and foremost on advancing to the pro game.

He plays two years for the Rangers, enjoying a rabid fan base. with well over 5k fans coming to see him every home game and a ton of media attention to go along with it (unlike what he experienced playing for the Steel and the USHL where he played in an empty arena). The coaching staff at Kitchener is top notch and he has access to all the bells and whistles expected for high end players. He is still thinking about playing for Michigan though but wants to see how the draft goes. He's drafted 21st overall by his favorite NHL team and now he has a decsion to make. Unlike what his USHL club was telling him, Kitchener is urging him to hold off on going to Michigan just yet. They are telling him, hey why don't you attend the Habs rookie camp and see how that goes. He does so and really enjoys it. The Rangers then tell him, hey why enroll in school just yet, you have a great thing going here so why don't you attend the main camp and who knows, maybe you might even get to play some games with the big club and just remember we will still be here waiting for you.
Let's also say that by now the CHL-NHL agreement has changed, allowing 18 year old players the opportunity to play at least part of the year in the AHL. So Kitchener and his agent say, hey why not sign, earn a nice signing bonus, play a bit in the AHL and by the time you come back to us, we will hand you the captaincy. So Hage does just that and never makes it to Michigan.

Now who knows, maybe Hage does make it to Michigan but there is now a distinct possibility that he doesn't because he is playing in a league that does not see itself nor want to be a feeder system to the NCAA. What the CHL wants above all else, is for the NCAA to be nothing more than a fall back option.



LOL no it's not but remember, we are talking hockey here and NIL deals in hockey aren't worth all that much to begin with for the vast majority of players.
That’s a perfect breakdown of how a potential scenario could play out with a top guy. If this rule was in place prior to this season, does high end OHL draft picks Nyman, Valentini and Malholtra all opt for the OHL with their verbal commitments to BC and Michigan? Probably, and then who knows if they ever do end up there.

One bad USNTDP class and everyone is ready to shovel dirt on U.S. Hockey and ignore a 5-decade trend of uptick in terms of NHL numbers :laugh:
It isn’t just one bad team though, it’s multiple years of bad to mediocre teams. The 06’s didn’t win the U18’s either and outside of Hagens (who’s probably done in college after this season), Eiserman, Hensler and Emery, it’s not a deep group. The 08’s don’t look good either, outside of a few players. I just watched the entire Silverstick as well and the American teams aren’t that good. Mount St. Charles wasn’t there, which I realize they’re very good, but the rest were all pretty much the best US U16 teams. So I’d reckon the 09 NTDP will continue the trend of disappointing teams.
 
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WarriorofTime

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But he wasn't playing for a team that was encouraging him not to go to college. Kitchener and just about any CHL team will do everything in their power to discourage their players from leaving early to the NCAA. That is the fundamental difference.
So to quote myself earlier

That's like essentially saying they are going to get tricked.

"come play here, you can then still go to the NCAA school recruiting you, you'll be able to have it all!" turning into "what? College? You're still worried about that stuff? You some kind of nerd? Come on now, get over that and get serious about playing hockey"
 

Corso

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That’s a perfect breakdown of how a potential scenario could play out with a top guy. If this rule was in place prior to this season, does high end OHL draft picks Nyman, Valentini and Malholtra all opt for the OHL with their verbal commitments to BC and Michigan? Probably, and then who knows if they ever do end up there.

And that is why the top programs in the NCAA were so opposed to granting CHL players eligibility. They know that the CHL as a whole will not want to be subordinate to the NCAA as the USHL is and will do what ever they can from keeping the Valentni's of the world from ever playing college hockey.

So to quote myself earlier



"come play here, you can then still go to the NCAA school recruiting you, you'll be able to have it all!" turning into "what? College? You're still worried about that stuff? You some kind of nerd? Come on now, get over that and get serious about playing hockey"

I wouldn't say tricked but they will be in an environment with a totally different perspective on development, one that does not see the NCAA as the optimum pathway to the NHL.
 
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Leviathan899

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So to quote myself earlier



"come play here, you can then still go to the NCAA school recruiting you, you'll be able to have it all!" turning into "what? College? You're still worried about that stuff? You some kind of nerd? Come on now, get over that and get serious about playing hockey"
Well, it sort of is I guess. But these kids have agents and advisers and they’re not stupid. Plus, if the ncaa has guys like Brandon Naurato playing dirty and explicitly bad mouthing the CHL and crapping on its quality and reputation, make no mistake the CHL and Hockey Canada are going to fight dirty as well.
 

WarriorofTime

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It isn’t just one bad team though, it’s multiple years of bad to mediocre teams. The 06’s didn’t win the U18’s either and outside of Hagens (who’s probably done in college after this season), Eiserman, Hensler and Emery, it’s not a deep group.
So they lost a game to a good Canada team, big deal. Assuming Hagens and Hensler (late birthdays) go 1st round and a kid like Vansaghi (late birthday) goes, call it 2nd round (10 point sin 12 games at Michigan State), that'd make for

1st round: Hagens*, Hensler*, Eiserman, Emery
2nd round: Stiga, Bednarik, Plante, Hutson, Skahan, Vansaghi*
3rd round: Ziemer
4th round: Kempf
5th round: Whipple
7th round: Humphreys, Baker, Van Vliet

Plus a kid like Epperson, who went undrafted last draft, that's top 20 in OHL scoring probably goes somewhere in the mid rounds in his second go around.

It's not the best group ever but not a bad group. If that's considered bad, then we're just rolling with a t here.
 

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