Value of: Chicago wants your young 2C

[HockeyVirus]

Do rebuilding clubs sell 24/25 year olds though? You'd be selling off guys who are already into their UFA stages.

If the Blues wanted to do a full rebuild, a guy like Thomas would be a logical player to move and get value on and kick start the rebuild. Getting another 1st + some prospect they like would be a win for them. But again, just an example.

 

[FiveTacos]

If the Blues wanted to do a full rebuild, a guy like Thomas would be a logical player to move and get value on and kick start the rebuild. Getting another 1st + some prospect they like would be a win for them. But again, just an example.

I think even that's unlikely. You don't kickstart a rebuild unless you're getting a premier centerpiece prospect back.

So that prospect better be really good, or the pick really high. You giving up a top 5-10 pick for a 25 year old 2c? Or a true blue chipper? Doubt it. And if not, it doesn't really speed up the rebuild, if anything it makes the hole deeper.

 

[HockeyVirus]

I think even that's unlikely. You don't kickstart a rebuild unless you're getting a premier centerpiece prospect back.

So that prospect better be really good, or the pick really high. You giving up a top 5-10 pick for a 25 year old 2c? Or a true blue chipper? Doubt it. And if not, it doesn't really speed up the rebuild, if anything it makes the hole deeper.

He's not helping you rebuild, he is winning games. More picks = faster rebuild. Get 6 firsts in the next few drafts selling guys.

A guy like Broberg nah keep him he will still be young when they are ready to try and win. Same with Holloway

 

[FiveTacos]

He's not helping you rebuild, he is winning games. More picks = faster rebuild. Get 6 firsts in the next few drafts selling guys.

It's not a faster rebuild, because now you have to fill a significant hole in your top 6 with that pick, instead of having a good player in that spot for 7-8 years.

A guy like Broberg nah keep him he will still be young when they are ready to try and win. Same with Holloway

Broberg and Holloway are only 2 years younger. That's practically nothing.

 

[StreetHawk]

He's not helping you rebuild, he is winning games. More picks = faster rebuild. Get 6 firsts in the next few drafts selling guys.

A guy like Broberg nah keep him he will still be young when they are ready to try and win. Same with Holloway

Thomas is a year older than Broberg. 2017 draftee vs a 2018 one.
Chicago can land a 2C. But asking for a young guy like in the 24/25 range or even 26 signed for multiple years is going to be a lot more difficult barring a cap crunch which with the increase now, Barring having a lot of talent like TB did or poorly managed, not sure I see many options that fit what Chicago is looking for.

 

[Space umpire]

Could have just held onto a Kirby Dach instead of trading him at 21, but what do I know.

Not much if you think Dach is a 2C.

 

[MNRube]

Hawks need a 2C that has size and defensive chops. Moore, should he prove to be an NHL quality C, projects as a Haula type. Guys like Zegras & Frost won’t help them longterm. They will be way too easy to play against

 

[StreetHawk]

Hawks need a 2C that has size and defensive chops. Moore, should he prove to be an NHL quality C, projects as a Haula type. Guys like Zegras & Frost won’t help them longterm. They will be way too easy to play against

Can’t get everything at once.
Opted for the RHD over a big C in Lindstrom this past draft. Based on position and potential probably the right call as very good RHD are extremely hard to find.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Oliver Kapanen or Owen Beck (Whichever Hab's fans are willing to trade)

for

TJ Brodie + Leafs 1st or Hawks 2nd or Star's 2nd.

Brodie despite being old is a much better then Savard and hopefully would help with Hutsons development.

The only players on Chicago line-up that interest me are Murphy and Jones. I doubt Jones would be available and I would not give Beck or Kapanen for Murphy.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I think even that's unlikely. You don't kickstart a rebuild unless you're getting a premier centerpiece prospect back.

So that prospect better be really good, or the pick really high. You giving up a top 5-10 pick for a 25 year old 2c? Or a true blue chipper? Doubt it. And if not, it doesn't really speed up the rebuild, if anything it makes the hole deeper.

25 year olds are the perfect guys to trade when you want to rebuild. It may shock sensibilities, but that's true for 22 year olds as well. If you are honest that you need to acquire elite end talent via the NHL Draft and the most likely way to do that is to pick high, you also want to be surrounding them with a lot of other picks in the same time and play a numbers game in terms of seeing which players emerge. The issue with the RFA players is (a) they get in the way of the "tank", (b) their future UFA contracts eats up some of your cap space that could be spent when your high draft picks come of age and used as appropriate to build the ideal roster around them, (c) their personal timeline based on sub-section b gets in the way of the overall team's timeline.

The caliber of player we're talking here is usually going to be available at the then ages that they will be at when the team is theoretically coming out on the other end of the rebuild, a critical point that I think gets overlokoked. I'd be much more hesitant to trade 25 year olds for picks if there wasn't a salary cap/teams had unlimited resources. In the draft/cap world, getting everyone on the same timeline makes a lot of sense. The idea that you'll ride out your 25 year old through the rebuild and have them come out on the other end of it is usually more wishful thinking from GMs that have a tough time admitting something like that is a better move for the 10-year outlook of the team.

 

[belfour30]

25 year olds are the perfect guys to trade when you want to rebuild. It may shock sensibilities, but that's true for 22 year olds as well. If you are honest that you need to acquire elite end talent via the NHL Draft and the most likely way to do that is to pick high, you also want to be surrounding them with a lot of other picks in the same time and play a numbers game in terms of seeing which players emerge. The issue with the RFA players is (a) they get in the way of the "tank", (b) their future UFA contracts eats up some of your cap space that could be spent when your high draft picks come of age and used as appropriate to build the ideal roster around them, (c) their personal timeline based on sub-section b gets in the way of the overall team's timeline.

The caliber of player we're talking here is usually going to be available at the then ages that they will be at when the team is theoretically coming out on the other end of the rebuild, a critical point that I think gets overlokoked. I'd be much more hesitant to trade 25 year olds for picks if there wasn't a salary cap/teams had unlimited resources. In the draft/cap world, getting everyone on the same timeline makes a lot of sense. The idea that you'll ride out your 25 year old through the rebuild and have them come out on the other end of it is usually more wishful thinking from GMs that have a tough time admitting something like that is a better move for the 10-year outlook of the team.

See: why Davidson traded DeBrincat

 

[FiveTacos]

25 year olds are the perfect guys to trade when you want to rebuild. It may shock sensibilities, but that's true for 22 year olds as well. If you are honest that you need to acquire elite end talent via the NHL Draft and the most likely way to do that is to pick high, you also want to be surrounding them with a lot of other picks in the same time and play a numbers game in terms of seeing which players emerge.

So you're offering a high pick for that type of player (young 2c)? Or are you suggesting they turn that player into what is likely a lesser player just to tank? Because the average outcome for a late 1st is far less than a good do-everything 2C.

You're also talking about tearing it down to the studs and probably tanking for a good half decade or more. Problem is, the GM who does that won't survive long enough to reap the rewards.

How about they keep that player, and most likely still suck and get a high pick? A young high quality 2C isn't gonna move the needle much on most terrible teams, he's going to be asked to be a sucky 1C. And he's also going to be part of getting to the cap floor. Plus he's still young enough to still be good when their picks start developing. I don't see how it's preferable to pay more money for crappier UFAs to reach the floor ... most of the time to convince a guy to go to a terrible team, UFAs want to be overpaid on AAV and term.

And hey, the Hawks are rebuilding themselves, so why doesn't the same logic apply to them in that they should not keep the 25 year old around? Are they done rebuilding? If so, then trade prospects for win now guys. Or do they have all the "elite" talents they need already and just want to fill out the roster? Then trade your unprotected 1st and a prospect for that 2C.

 

[WarriorofTime]

And hey, the Hawks are rebuilding themselves, so why doesn't the same logic apply to them in that they should not keep the 25 year old around? Are they done rebuilding? If so, then trade prospects for win now guys. Or do they have all the "elite" talents they need already and just want to fill out the roster? Then trade your unprotected 1st and a prospect for that 2C.

I'm not really sure what you're asking. I won't be particularly pleased if the Hawks start sending picks/recent first round picks out the door for RFA players.

 

[Bizz]

Couture is still young.

We'll take Toronto's 2025 1st and one of your RHD prospects for him.

 

[StreetHawk]

See: why Davidson traded DeBrincat

DCat is a high skilled winger, doesn't play a cornerstone position like C or D. So, that was a wise decision.

When Yzerman took over Detroit in 2019, Larkin was 23 and signed for 4 more seasons. Raymond/Seider joined the team in 21/22 season when Larkin was 25. Yzerman held onto him as most would.

You can't expect a Playoff position draft pick from 17 onwards to match the level of the C that you would be moving out down the line. Might only be 2-4 players who might be close to as good. Like in 2014, with Larkin at 15, only Pastrnak is clearly better. Tuch (a few picks later) is a big body player. McCann similar style but not as good and Sanheim more of a 3 Dman.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Couture is still young.

We'll take Toronto's 2025 1st and one of your RHD prospects for him.

How can Chicago say no

 

[Mac Attack]

The typical age players hits ufa is 27/28 at the earliest. So at 25/26 the team still has 2/3 more years of team control. There would have to be a legit reason to move them. Be it a cap crunch or for an upgrade in another position.

Basically like Mittlestad from last year. Tough to find those guys. Although Colorado has done it twice now with Kadri from earlier as well. Both times they offered up an equivalent type Dman for the center. Not sure Hawks have the correct assets available to get that done. I highly doubt futures only gets you a guy like that aside from a big overpay.

 

[StreetHawk]

Basically like Mittlestad from last year. Tough to find those guys. Although Colorado has done it twice now with Kadri from earlier as well. Both times they offered up an equivalent type Dman for the center. Not sure Hawks have the correct assets available to get that done. I highly doubt futures only gets you a guy like that aside from a big overpay.

Based on the target age, again, there is no reason for a club to just give up a 24-26 year old 2C without a good reason to. So, futures, is unlikely unless a club is in a cap crunch like TB with Miller trade who was a $5 mill cap hit at the time.

 

[FiveTacos]

I'm not really sure what you're asking. I won't be particularly pleased if the Hawks start sending picks/recent first round picks out the door for RFA players.

Just that if the justification for dumping a 25yo 2C is that it's a rebuilding team and they should trade him for a pick or something, then why would the Hawks be looking to acquire someone like that? Or is the rebuild over?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Just that if the justification for dumping a 25yo 2C is that it's a rebuilding team and they should trade him for a pick or something, then why would the Hawks be looking to acquire someone like that? Or is the rebuild over?

No the rebuild is not over.

 

[FiveTacos]

No the rebuild is not over.

Well then either the premise of the thread is flawed (that the Hawks should acquire a young-ish 2C), or the idea that a 25yo 2C of high quality would/should be traded by a rebuilding team is wrong. Can't be both. Makes no sense to say a rebuilding team like the Hawks are looking for that kind of player, and to also suggest that they could get one from a team looking to dump said player because a guy like that doesn't fit with a rebuild.

Regardless, for cap floor reasons alone, no one tears it down to the point where all they have is 23 and unders.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Well then either the premise of the thread is flawed (that the Hawks should acquire a young-ish 2C), or the idea that a 25yo 2C of high quality would/should be traded by a rebuilding team is wrong. Can't be both. Makes no sense to say a rebuilding team like the Hawks are looking for that kind of player, and to also suggest that they could get one from a team looking to dump said player because a guy like that doesn't fit with a rebuild.

Regardless, for cap floor reasons alone, no one tears it down to the point where all they have is 23 and unders.

As I've said on the first page, Musto (the OP) speaks for nobody but Musto. His little schtick of trading away the particular prospects/young guys he dislikes (usually because it didn't agree with his own personal draft board) is hopefully not reflective of the overall Blackhawks strategy.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Hopefully Nazar takes over the 2C role but that would likely be in another year or two (if it happens.)

 

[Fatass]

What do the Hawks have that is equal to a young 2C? That’s a very valuable player who is playing 2C that’s young.

 

[LeBrun is a Clown]

I actually think part of the issue is Anaheim is trying to play him as a winger…. He’s much more comfortable/better at center.

As a center he has b2b 60+ point seasons(on a very terrible team) which is right on par with a 2c…. Issue is Anaheim for whatever reason refuses to play him there.

Yeah because he sucked defensively and they want size down the middle. That’s why they are working on his defense with him on the wing