Proposal: Chi-Col and Chi-Edm (Near or at Trade Deadline)

[Blackhawkswincup]

If MAF were to desire to move on to contender and if Avs decide to upgrade on Keumper

Trade #1
To
G Marc Andre Fleury (50% retained)

To
G Darcy Kuemper
Avalanche 2023 2nd round pick

Hawks then would flip Kuemper to Oilers

Trade #2
To
G Darcy Keumper

To
G Mikko Koskinen
Oilers 2024 3rd round pick

Both Avs and Oilers upgrade in net while Hawks get two picks towards rebuilding under what will probably be a new GM in offseason

Click to read more...

 

[Sniped90]

I mean hawks might want more but i mean as an oilers fan i wouldnt say no especially if theres an extension worked out

 

[John Mandalorian]

I give the OP credit. The value seems fair/realistic even though this outcome is unlikely.

 

[FameFlame069]

I actually like this from all 3 teams I think it'd be a smart trade all around, especially if MAF doesn't want to move to far

 

[Kevin Musto]

Seems pretty good for all teams involved

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Easy no for Colorado.


Kuemper has looked shaky so far this year but his last ~10 starts have gotten better.


Even still, he has far better numbers then Fleury this year. There's no indication yet that Fleury is actually an upgrade on Kuemper.



That said, I think the Avs would be wise to explore trading for Fleury to form a tandem with Kuemper. But not trading Kuemper for Fleury. We'll have to wait and see how Francouz plays between now and the deadline to really decide if an upgrade on Francouz is necessary or not.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

Done for the Oilers.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Easy no for Colorado.


Kuemper has looked shaky so far this year but his last ~10 starts have gotten better.


Even still, he has far better numbers then Fleury this year. There's no indication yet that Fleury is actually an upgrade on Kuemper.



That said, I think the Avs would be wise to explore trading for Fleury to form a tandem with Kuemper. But not trading Kuemper for Fleury. We'll have to wait and see how Francouz plays between now and the deadline to really decide if an upgrade on Francouz is necessary or not.

You/re right about the concern over the fact that Francouz is made of glass.

But the only reason this would be an easy no is because of sunk costs. If the Avs hadn't traded a 1st and Timmins for Kuemper, this becomes much more viable. Yes, it's true that sunk costs shouldn't drive decisions but that's easier said than done. And with that in mind, the Avs would have essentially traded the 2022 1st, Timmins, an a 2023 2nd for MAF.

In being fair, there's no way Vegas was ever going to trade MAF to the Avs. So you make peace with this reality too.

 

[Mandalorian]

Easy no for Colorado.


Kuemper has looked shaky so far this year but his last ~10 starts have gotten better.


Even still, he has far better numbers then Fleury this year. There's no indication yet that Fleury is actually an upgrade on Kuemper.



That said, I think the Avs would be wise to explore trading for Fleury to form a tandem with Kuemper. But not trading Kuemper for Fleury. We'll have to wait and see how Francouz plays between now and the deadline to really decide if an upgrade on Francouz is necessary or not.

Garbage for colorado.

Kuemper is better than Fleury this year and younger, add the 2nd pick on top of that and wow. Pure trash.

Colorado should target an upgrade on Kuemper.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Garbage for colorado.

Kuemper is better than Fleury this year and younger, add the 2nd pick on top of that and wow. Pure trash.

Colorado should target an upgrade on Kuemper.

What's funny about this is how willing so many people are willing to make excuses for goalies. The Avs have one of the very best defensive groups in the NHL. Still, you will see people blaming the D group for various goals against Kuemper. If that's fair and if that's the case, why shouldn't the same consideration be given to MAF while playing in Chicago this year? I mean, if the Avs D group is so horrible, then what does that make Chicago's D group? And why would MAF's numbers be better in this circumstance?

 

[Mandalorian]

What's funny about this is how willing so many people are willing to make excuses for goalies. The Avs have one of the very best defensive groups in the NHL. Still, you will see people blaming the D group for various goals against Kuemper. If that's fair and if that's the case, why shouldn't the same consideration be given to MAF while playing in Chicago this year? I mean, if the Avs D group is so horrible, then what does that make Chicago's D group? And why would MAF's numbers be better in this circumstance?

I'm not sure what is your stance on the matter or what is the point you try to make, but if you're trying to say that Fleury has been average at best this season, you are right.

 

[John Mandalorian]

I'm not sure what is your stance on the matter or what is the point you try to make, but if you're trying to say that Fleury has been average at best this season, you are totally right.

I'm sorry that my comment was so vague that it needs to be explained. To put it more simply, MAF is likely going to have lesser numbers when playing behind a substantially lesser defensive group in front of him. Kuemper is playing behind one of the best defensive groups in the NHL. Number comparisons are apples and oranges. If you look at skill sets and weaknesses (not simply numbers), MAF is probably better suited for a team like the Avs.

 

[Tyrolean]

Oilers don't have a 3rd round pick (Keith trade).

 

[Jayevs]

Hard no for the Avs

 

[Mandalorian]

I'm sorry that my comment was so vague that it needs to be explained. To put it more simply, MAF is likely going to have lesser numbers when playing behind a substantially lesser defensive group in front of him. Kuemper is playing behind one of the best defensive groups in the NHL. Number comparisons are apples and oranges. If you look at skill sets and weaknesses (not simply numbers), MAF is probably better suited for a team like the Avs.

Yes, playing for a dumpster fire like Chicago will do that to your number. But Kuemper also had good number playing for Arizona. His career average is higher than Fleury. Not conviced Fleury, especially at 37 years old, is a big upgrade on Kuemper. His only favorable asset in comparaison to another rumored available goaltender like Price is his contract.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Garbage for colorado.

Kuemper is better than Fleury this year and younger, add the 2nd pick on top of that and wow. Pure trash.

Colorado should target an upgrade on Kuemper.

Maybe, maybe not.


Like I said, he was shaky to start the year and he hasn't earned my trust yet by any means. But his last 10 games or so has been a lot better. He does have a track record of being a very good goalie at times for a pretty bad Arizona team. It could very well just be a matter of him taking some time to settle in on a new team and maybe he keeps getting better.


For now we should just wait and see how things go. Either way I dont see any scenario where Kuemper is traded this year. Sakic made his bed with him and will sink or swim with him as the starter.

I think what remains to be seen is whether we trust Francouz enough to be his backup and I could absolutely see us making an upgrade on that position to get someone who better pushes Kuemper to be as good as he can be(IE Fleury). But again we have to wait and see on that front. Francouz was simply phenomenal the last time he was healthy in the NHL. If he gets back to that level we're absolutely fine in net no question.


Fortunately for the Avs, we're winning games and scoring lots of goals so we're not in any immediate danger of losing the season and we have time to figure out what we have and what we need to go shopping for. A team like the Oilers don't have that luxury right now, they're seeing a potentially good year slip away from them right now.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Yes, playing for a dumpster fire like Chicago will do that to your number. But Kuemper also had good number playing for Arizona. His career average is higher than Fleury. Not conviced Fleury, especially at 37 years old, is a big upgrade on Kuemper. His only favorable asset in comparaison to another rumored available goaltender like Price is his contract.

For the bulk of the time in Arizona, they tried to win games by a score of 0-0. They'd pack everyone back and try to obstruct shots and passing lanes. This resulted in good numbers for Kuemper. The Avs don't play that way. The Avs play at the other end of the ice much more than Arizona did. But this also results in the occasional transiton opportunity where the goalie is on an island. MAF is more capable of coming up with those routine big saves that come in transition.

It's not like Kuemper has great numbers in spite of playing on the Avs.

 

[Mandalorian]

For the bulk of the time in Arizona, they tried to win games by a score of 0-0. They'd pack everyone back and try to obstruct shots and passing lanes. This resulted in good numbers for Kuemper. The Avs don't play that way. The Avs play at the other end of the ice much more than Arizona did. But this also results in the occasional transiton opportunity where the goalie is on an island. MAF is more capable of coming up with those routine big saves that come in transition.

It's not like Kuemper has great numbers in spite of playing on the Avs.

Maybe you're right, but do you really think Fleury is the guy that's going to push them over the playoff hump?

 

[John Mandalorian]

Maybe you're right, but do you really think Fleury is the guy that's going to push them over the playoff hump?

I'm not a fortune teller. All I can tell you is that as of this moment, I'd feel a little better with MAF than Kuemper. It's moreso based on skill set. I also have an impression that MAF is going to age well moreso than most goalies.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Maybe you're right, but do you really think Fleury is the guy that's going to push them over the playoff hump?

He's the best chance of anybody else on the market.

 

[Mandalorian]

He's the best chance of anybody else on the market.

Then if you truly think he is the best chance of anybody else on the market and you think this is improving the team, and 50% retention is offered, you make the move. Can't have your cake and eat it too. You won't get Fleury for whatever mediocre asset you probably have in mind if you're not ready to give Kuemper in exchange. That would be dishonest if you value Fleury that much.

 

[Freudian]

Sakic made his goalie move this summer. Kuemper is going to be Avs goalie for the playoffs.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Then if you truly think he is the best chance of anybody else on the market and you think this is improving the team, and 50% retention is offered, you make the move. Can't have your cake and eat it too. You won't get Fleury for whatever mediocre asset you probably have in mind if you're not ready to give Kuemper in exchange. That would be dishonest if you value Fleury that much.

Nowhere have I said this.

 

[Mandalorian]

Nowhere have I said this.

If you think he has the best chance of pushing Colorado over their playoff hump, which is what you replied too, when you have quality goaltender on the market like Ullmark, Halak and Quick. You must value Fleury pretty highly then, so I don't see how you would not consider him to be an improvement on the team. Unless you consider Kuemper to be a better goaltender than all of these starters, which is another story.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

If you think he has the best chance of pushing Colorado over their playoff hump, which is what you replied too, when you have quality goaltender on the market like Ullmark, Halak and Quick. You must value Fleury pretty highly then, so I don't see how you would not consider him to be an improvement on the team. Unless you consider Kuemper to be a better goaltender than all of these starters, which is another story.

I think Fleury is quite a bit better then Halak and Ullmark, about the same as Quick but no indication that he's on the market yet.


I dont think we can say either way yet whether Fleury is an upgrade on Kuemper or not. But I suspect the Avs didn't pay a 1st + Solid NHL player for Kuemper under the belief that he's not at least as good as Fleury is.