OT: Chess

[Ben Grimm]

Chess has been dominated by Carlsen and a guy named Garry for many of the recent years. This can cause casual fans to forget how great the non-champions are. Here's some links to the last two WCs before Nepo which feature two of the favorites (along with Ali, Ding, Giri, Nepo, and So) for the next WC. Both matches ended in a tie at classical time controls. Carlsen won both at speed chess. I hope you check them out. @Harbour Dog may agree with me.

Magnus Carlsen vs Sergey Karjakin (2016) First Blood (chessgames.com)

World Chess Championship 2016

Carlsen - Karjakin World Championship Match (2016) (chessgames.com)

World Chess Championship 2018

Carlsen - Caruana World Championship Match (2018) (chessgames.com)

 

[Ben Grimm]

What if it was possible to have a tourney to determine who the best players of all time are? The setting is the 58th Annual Hoogovens Chess Tournament held in Wijk aan Zee, The Netherlands from January 12th to January 29th, 1996. It's a double elimination tourney where you need 2 wins to advance. If there were no upsets the top 2 seeds would meet in the finals. The players with an asterisk finished top 4 in the real tourney and are their real selves in January 1996.​

The rest are the same age, fitness, and health as Carlsen is today. All the players have access to the best public resources available at the time which did not include Deep Blue I. None of them have post January 1996 chess knowledge. If you reply, please try to write more than just who you think the top 3 players of all time are. Please try to write what you think would happen. I'm looking forward to your replies. @Harbour Dog

1996 Hoogovens Group A Tournament​

1. Kasparov
16. Adams*
-
7. Kramnik
10. Alekhine
--
5. Karpov
12. Petrosian
-
3. Fischer
14. Ivanchuk*
---------------------
4. Capablanca
13. Morphy
-
6. Botvinnik
11. Anand*
--
8. Lasker
9. Tal
-
2. Carlsen
15. Topalov*​

 

[Brief Candle]

It's Wilhelm Steinitz, the first world champion haha

I haven't been following the SCC at all actually. Smart money would be on Hikaru though, unless he has an off day against So or Vachier-Lagrave.

Hikaru is just so...punchable. haha

 

[Brief Candle]

What if it was possible to have a tourney to determine who the best players of all time are? The setting is the 58th Annual Hoogovens Chess Tournament held in Wijk aan Zee, The Netherlands from January 12th to January 29th, 1996. It's a double elimination tourney where you need 2 wins to advance. If there were no upsets the top 2 seeds would meet in the finals. The players with an asterisk finished top 4 in the real tourney and are their real selves in January 1996. The rest are the same age, fitness, and health as Carlsen is today. All the players have access to the best public resources available at the time which did not include Deep Blue I. None of them have post January 1996 chess knowledge. If you reply, please try to write more than just who you think the top 3 players of all time are. Please try to write what you think would happen. I'm looking forward to your reply, @Harbour Dog

1996 Hoogovens Group A Tournament​

1. Kasparov
16. Adams*
-
7. Kramnik
10. Alekhine
--
5. Karpov
12. Petrosian
-
3. Fischer
14. Ivanchuk*
---------------------
4. Capablanca
13. Morphy
-
6. Botvinnik
11. Anand*
--
8. Lasker
9. Tal
-
2. Carlsen
15. Topalov*​

Oh man...

This is impossible. Given the same access to prep AND in their prime? This is impossible. Honestly, maybe Capablanca? He was such a genius. Fischer would pull some insane non-human computer stuff out of his ass for sure. His games were wild. Kramnike, Karpov and Kasperov are almost interchangeable. Could Carlsen best all of them? On his best day, I don't see why not, but then again on almost anyone on that list's best day they could as well.

 

[Ben Grimm]

Oh man ... This is impossible. Given the same access to prep AND in their prime? This is impossible. Honestly, maybe Capablanca? He was such a genius. ...

Agreed. I think the top 5 seeds would win their first match, but after that it's very difficult to say.

 

[Harbour Dog]

What if it was possible to have a tourney to determine who the best players of all time are? The setting is the 58th Annual Hoogovens Chess Tournament held in Wijk aan Zee, The Netherlands from January 12th to January 29th, 1996. It's a double elimination tourney where you need 2 wins to advance. If there were no upsets the top 2 seeds would meet in the finals. The players with an asterisk finished top 4 in the real tourney and are their real selves in January 1996.

The rest are the same age, fitness, and health as Carlsen is today. All the players have access to the best public resources available at the time which did not include Deep Blue I. None of them have post January 1996 chess knowledge. If you reply, please try to write more than just who you think the top 3 players of all time are. Please try to write what you think would happen. I'm looking forward to your replies. @Harbour Dog

1996 Hoogovens Group A Tournament​

1. Kasparov
16. Adams*
-
7. Kramnik
10. Alekhine
--
5. Karpov
12. Petrosian
-
3. Fischer
14. Ivanchuk*
---------------------
4. Capablanca
13. Morphy
-
6. Botvinnik
11. Anand*
--
8. Lasker
9. Tal
-
2. Carlsen
15. Topalov*​

Super tough.

Kasparov stomps Adams.
Fischer stomps Ivanchuk.
Carlsen stomps Topalov.

Alekhine comfortably over Kramnik. I like Vlad, but Alekhine was on top of the chess world for two decades. Gotta believe he's a head of him given the same resources and training.

Karpov edges Petrosian, but it's tooth and nail. Any format where you need to win a game against Petrosian is going to be a challenge.

Capablanca and Morphy is the best match of the first round for me. Capablanca is my pick to win, and Morphy was probably the most dominant player ever. Given 1990s resources, maybe he'd be able to transition to modern chess and be right there with the big four.

Anand gets past Botvinnik without too much trouble.

And Lasker turns to a steadier game to get past Tal.

For the overall winner: between Capablanca, Kasparov, Fischer, and Carlsen, I wouldn't be able to pick one with confidence. Capablanca is my guess. His accuracy isn't that far behind World Champions 50 years after him; give hik the same resources and it's probably an uphill fight for everybody else.

 

[Ben Grimm]

Thanks for posting. I like that you choose the "real" Anand over Botvinnik. I don't disagree with any of your points, but I'm taking Garry over Capablanca 2 wins to one win in the final.

 

[Brief Candle]

Thanks for posting. I like that you choose the "real" Anand over Botvinnik. I don't disagree with any of your points, but I'm taking Garry over Capablanca 2 wins to one win in the final.

My heart tells me Garry. Also because he's one of my favorites just as a person. He's impossible to dislike! Truth be told, I *hated* Carlsen early on because he began beating Garry.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Thanks for posting. I like that you choose the "real" Anand over Botvinnik. I don't disagree with any of your points, but I'm taking Garry over Capablanca 2 wins to one win in the final.

Oops, I meant to have Botvinnik over Anand haha. That was a typo!

Much respect to Anand, but I think that he *slightly* overachieved, just because of how early he adapted to using engines.

 

[Ben Grimm]

Oops, I meant to have Botvinnik over Anand haha. That was a typo! Much respect to Anand, but I think that he *slightly* overachieved, just because of how early he adapted to using engines.

White Wins	Black Wins
Fischer vs J Sherwin, 1957 Fischer vs Najdorf, 1962 Fischer vs Julio Bolbochan, 1962 [TBODY] [/TBODY]	Karjakin vs Anand, 2006 Adams vs Kasparov, 2005 Fischer vs Tal, 1959 [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I was gonna mention that in January 1996 he probably was the best super GM at using engines. They are great training tools. Looking at the masters is not a bad idea either. If someone wants to study one of the most popular variations the Najdorf, the games posted above are great. Speaking of Anand, he gives Karjakin a lesson on the Black side in 2006 at Wijk aan Zee. Someone nicknamed the game "A Corus Line". @Harbour Dog​

 

[Ben Grimm]

2022 FIDE Grand Prix To Start February 3 - Chess.com​

This is the Grand Prix you mentioned when we were discussing Rapport. I'm also looking forward to seeing his openings and overall play against the super GMs. As you said the following have already qualified for the Candidates:

• "GM Teimour Radjabov was the first to secure a spot, which he was promised by FIDE after he had withdrawn from the 2020 Candidates early in the pandemic;
• GM Jan-Krzysztof Duda for winning the 2021 FIDE World Cup;
• GM Sergey Karjakin as the runner-up of the 2021 FIDE World Cup;
• GM Alireza Firouzja for winning the 2021 FIDE Chess.com Grand Swiss;
• GM Fabiano Caruana as the runner-up of the 2021 FIDE Chess.com Grand Swiss"
• GM Nepo

The field includes "GM Ding Liren, GM Levon Aronian, GM Anish Giri, GM Wesley So, GM Shakhriyar Mamedyarov, GM Alexander Grischuk, GM Richard Rapport, GM Maxime Vachier-Lagrave, GM Leinier Dominguez, GM Nikita Vitiugov, GM Wei Yi, GM Vidit Gujrathi, GM Dmitry Andreikin*, GM Yu Yangyi, GM Sam Shankland, GM Alexei Shirov, GM Vladimir Fedoseev, GM Alexandr Predke, GM Grigoriy Oparin, GM Amin Tabatabaei, GM Etienne Bacrot, and GM Vincent Keymer".

I like the first four mentioned in the last paragraph to go to the semis. @Harbour Dog

 

[Ben Grimm]

Notable Games

Ivanchuk vs Kasparov, 1991 1-0
Ivanchuk vs Shirov, 1996 1-0
Kasparov vs Ivanchuk, 1995 0-1
Topalov vs Ivanchuk, 1999 0-1
Ivanchuk vs Karjakin, 2008 1-0
Ivanchuk vs Jobava, 2010 1-0
Ivanchuk vs Topalov, 1996 1-0
Ivanchuk vs Morozevich, 1996 1-0
Ivanchuk vs Topalov, 2007 1-0
Ivanchuk vs Kasparov, 1994 1-0​

Who is the greatest chess player who never became World Champion? Paul Keres, David Bronstein, Akiba Rubinstein, or Leonid Stein? Many think it was Victor Korchnoi. My personal favorite may not have been as good as those 5 but he was great in his own way.

Vassily Ivanchuk has been ranked at No. 2 on the FIDE world rankings three times. His highest rating was 2787 and he won 61.4% of 3,883 classical games. Some of his notable games are listed above including 3 wins against Kasparov who almost never lost. Kasparov beat Ivanchuk 11 to 4, with 22 draws in classical games. This is the first game listed above and it is one of his best. He may have even beaten @Harbour Dog on this day.

Vasyl Ivanchuk vs Garry Kasparov (1991) Planet Ivanchuk Rising
Linares, ESP, rd 1, Feb-23
Sicilian Defense: Canal Attack (B51) · 1-0​

 

[Ben Grimm]

He narrowly missed a chance at a world championship match on five occasions. Who is he?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

I'd love to see this senior citizen tourney. Levon was in The Band and Elton John wrote a song about him. Who'd win in the first round and overall? @Harbour Dog

1. Aronian
8. Harikrishna

4. Radjabov
5. Dominguez Perez
---------------------------
3. Grischuk
6. Wang, Hao

2. Mamedyarov
7. Vitiugov

 

[Harbour Dog]

He narrowly missed a chance at a world championship match on five occasions. Who is he?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

I'd love to see this senior citizen tourney. Levon was in The Band and Elton John wrote a song about him. Who'd win in the first round and overall? @Harbour Dog

1. Aronian
8. Harikrishna

4. Radjabov
5. Dominguez Perez
---------------------------
3. Grischuk
6. Wang, Hao

2. Mamedyarov
7. Vitiugov

By the description, I know it's Keres; but I wouldn't have recognized him. He's at the top of some people's lists as the best player to have never been world champion.

I think all the top seeds would advance, though Dominguez Perez could easily upset. And the winner would be a coin flip between Aronian and Mamedyarov; whoever is playing better that week. I have a feeling that Grischuk is about to take a step back at the Grand Prix.

 

[Ben Grimm]

Speed Chess Championship: Nakamura Beats Ding In Spectacular Armageddon Finish, Advances To Finals - Chess.com

"In the last semifinal match of the 2021 Speed Chess Championship Main Event, GM Hikaru Nakamura defeated GM Ding Liren in the culminating armageddon game after an unforgettable, back-and-forth, and epic four-hour struggle. The five-time U.S. Champion and number one seed will face GM Wesley So in the final match on Sunday, December 19, at 10 a.m. PT/19:00 CET. The American grandmaster's resilience and his ability to strike back despite unfavorable match situations was a recurring theme in this hand-wringing match. Winning on-demand in the final bullet game to send the match into tiebreaks, then drawing the final game of the tiebreaks in a precarious position and sending the match into armageddon, and ultimately winning the final game with the black pieces, Nakamura proved that even when he was knocked down, he was never out.

Speed Chess doesn't get much better than this and the Naka/So Final. @Harbour Dog​

 

[Harbour Dog]

I'll probably watch that. Hopefully So can make it a close one!

 

[Ben Grimm]

Elo oddities: the tortoise and the hare - 2/24/2012
​

"There has been ample debate on whether Magnus Carlsen would break Garry Kasparov's record 2851 rating. Though it might seem like quite a mountain to climb, an oddity in the FIDE rating system means he could do it without breaking a sweat. The good news is that if you are rated at least 1400 Elo, FIDE declares you have an 8% chance against the world number one. Expert discussion. Chinese GM Li Chao recently rejoined the 2700 club after winning 5.6 Elo from his 9.0/9 victory at the 5th Colombo International Chess Festival 2012. While nine in nine sounded impressive, the results page showed something quite odd: the Chinese player had a 2622 performance, considerably below his 2693 rating. Six of the eight rated opponents had ratings under 2000 and one was even rated 1405. In spite of this he had still managed to gain 5.6 Elo. How was that possible"?

Is 2021 Vidit, Santosh Gujrathi IND 2727 better than 1996 Anand,Viswanathan IND 2725? @Harbour Dog

 

[Brief Candle]

Kid: Mom can we have a chess championship?
Mom: We have chess championship at home.

Chess championship at home:


Admittedly this was super entertaining. Whomever Rey Engima is, he's gotta be close to, if not a GM. Not reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally a draw, but still. Not bad to hang with Karpov.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Elo oddities: the tortoise and the hare - 2/24/2012
​

"There has been ample debate on whether Magnus Carlsen would break Garry Kasparov's record 2851 rating. Though it might seem like quite a mountain to climb, an oddity in the FIDE rating system means he could do it without breaking a sweat. The good news is that if you are rated at least 1400 Elo, FIDE declares you have an 8% chance against the world number one. Expert discussion. Chinese GM Li Chao recently rejoined the 2700 club after winning 5.6 Elo from his 9.0/9 victory at the 5th Colombo International Chess Festival 2012. While nine in nine sounded impressive, the results page showed something quite odd: the Chinese player had a 2622 performance, considerably below his 2693 rating. Six of the eight rated opponents had ratings under 2000 and one was even rated 1405. In spite of this he had still managed to gain 5.6 Elo. How was that possible"?

Is 22 Vidit, Santosh Gujrathi IND 2727 better than 6 Anand,Viswanathan IND 2725? @Harbour Dog

I would say that that's not the case. Though with the advent of engines, it is very possible. There has also been a rating inflation that came along with chess engines; but I'm not sure if that impacts players at the highest level.

 

[Ben Grimm]

1 . Ivanchuk,Vassily UKR: 2735
2 . Kamsky,Gata USA: 2735
3 . Anand,Viswanathan IND: 2725
4. Gelfand,Boris BLR: 2700
5. Topalov,Veselin BUL: 2700
6. Shirov,Alexei ESP: 2690
7. Polgar,Judit HUN: 2675

It's unlikely WC Anand (2751) would lose. He's ranked 3rd in blitz and 16th in classical in the world in semi-retirement. I posted an article about ratings inflation. It's caused by a flawed system, not engines. It raises all players ratings.

In my humble opinion the 1996 team would have a 100% chance of winning 4/7 matches against the 19th-26th seeds today. The 1996 team simply has a better understanding of the game, Ivanchuk and Kamsky are the highest rated, Anand is a WC, Topalov is a 2 time WC challenger, Gelfand is a WC challenger, and Shirov and Polgar's peak ratings are 2755 and 2735 respectively.

 

[Brief Candle]

It brings up the same idea as "How would such and such a player do in the modern game/back in the old days" etc. I firmly believe those who were great, given today's technical advantage would be just as capable and dominate. In a way, it's why I fully back the idea that over-the-board chess has kind of seen it's day. It'll still be used for FIDE ratings, but rapid chess is where it's at! Even a garbage 1100 like me stands a chance when I have literal hours to spend calculating plausible outcomes, let alone the likes of the greats. I'd really love to see more validity be given to rapid chess, and I'm not alone in thinking that.

 

[Ben Grimm]

It brings up the same idea as "How would such and such a player do in the modern game/back in the old days" etc. I firmly believe those who were great, given today's technical advantage would be just as capable and dominate. In a way, it's why I fully back the idea that over-the-board chess has kind of seen it's day. It'll still be used for FIDE ratings, ...

Rapid

Carlsen, Magnus	GM	NOR	2856	2842	2892	1990
Ding, Liren	GM	CHN	2799	2836	2788	1992
Duda, Jan-Krzysztof	GM	POL	2760	2801	2792	1998
Nepomniachtchi, Ian	GM	RUS	2782	2798	2792	1990
So, Wesley	GM	USA	2772	2782	2814	1993

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Blitz

Carlsen, Magnus	GM	NOR	2856	2842	2892	1990
Artemiev, Vladislav	GM	RUS	2700	2714	2830	1998
Anand, Viswanathan	GM	IND	2751	2748	2825	1969
So, Wesley	GM	USA	2772	2782	2814	1993
Firouzja, Alireza	GM	FRA	2804	2656	2810	2003
Yu, Yangyi	GM	CHN	2713	2738	2808	1994
Caruana, Fabiano	GM	USA	2792	2770	2803	1992

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Anand is 3rd in blitz. @Brief Candle

 

[Brief Candle]

Funny, I thought Hikaru was further up there.

 

[Ben Grimm]

Funny, I thought Hikaru was further up there.

He's top 2-3 in the world, but because he hasn't played a FIDE rated classical game in more than 2 years, they removed him from their ratings system.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

SCC finals ongoing. Hikaru too stronk as usual.