GWT: Champions League Semi-Finals

[Pouchkine]

I've refereed probably more than a thousand games I know the rules trust me on that...And most importantly I don't root for any of the teams involved!

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

How are you talking about the bigger picture? You call him the most overrated manager in the world on the presumed basis of three matches: at home vs. Real two years ago, away at Barca, and away at Atletico. You blame him for ignoring Götze when he helped along so many other great players.

When I say the big picture, I'm talking about the overall picture in the Champions League. He can make a mistake or two, its not the end of the day, if he's able to win the UCL at least 1 of 3 years. He didn't though.

Also, you keep saying that he helps players, and I'm not doubting that he helps out players, but coach's are not brought into a club primarily to help players. They are brought in to achieve results for the club.

 

[Vipers31]

When I say the big picture, I'm talking about the overall picture in the Champions League. He can make a mistake or two, its not the end of the day, if he's able to win the UCL at least 1 of 3 years. He didn't though.

Also, you keep saying that he helps players, and I'm not doubting that he helps out players, but coach's are not brought into a club primarily to help players. They are brought in to achieve results for the club.

When it comes to CL, three years, or six semifinal games, isn't a "big picture". It's an incredibly small picture. That's why the competition is so hard to win.

The club has no problems whatsoever with the results the coach brought, btw.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I've refereed probably more than a thousand games I know the rules trust me on that...And most importantly I don't root for any of the teams involved!

Good to know. I wasn't aware of that rule.

Have you ever referred a situation where an initial foul occurred outside the box but you gave the later foul that was on the edge or inside the box?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

When it comes to CL, three years, or six semifinal games, isn't a "big picture". It's an incredibly small picture. That's why the competition is so hard to win.

The club has no problems whatsoever with the results the coach brought, btw.

How about overall picture? You like the sound of that better?

 

[Deficient Mode]

When I say the big picture, I'm talking about the overall picture in the Champions League. He can make a mistake or two, its not the end of the day, if he's able to win the UCL at least 1 of 3 years. He didn't though.

Also, you keep saying that he helps players, and I'm not doubting that he helps out players, but coach's are not brought into a club primarily to help players. They are brought in to achieve results for the club.

The overall picture in the CL? You mean how three years in a row Bayern finished first in their group and won two more ties after that? Or do only the matches he lost count as part of the bigger picture?

Bayern has recently alternated between teacher/experimental type coaches (van Gaal and Guardiola) followed by more conventional coaches who take advantage of the advances the teachers made in the team (Heynckes and Ancelotti). That pattern could very well continue.

 

[cgf]

Simeone outcoached Pep over the two legs, as well. Pep way overthought leg 1. You don't leave your best player Muller on the bench for some questionable tactical reason.

In leg 2, you could say Bayern deserved to win convincingly, but this has been the theme of Bayern under Pep. They deserve to win these big games, but they don't. Maybe we should rethink it and just admit that despite their great football, they make way too many mistakes defensively and aren't as potent in the offensive third as they should be.

These Bayern defenders seem to have regressed under Pep, and it doesn't help when the manager is always playing such unconventional defensive formations with players out of position.

Simeone didn't out-coach Pep. He instilled a stronger self-confidence/self-belief in his men than Pep did, which in large part created the good fortune that they benefitted from...but his strategy for dealing with Bayern amounted to "keep the game close enough for a lucky break to decide it!" It worked because Bayern was poor in the first leg, but it's not like Athleti was able to take advantage of that to outplay Bayern at any point in this tie. That first match was an absolute toss up, one that Simeone's side managed to end up on the right side of; not a convincing triumph, like they achieved in the previous round. While in this leg, his tactics forced his team into the "hopefully they don't outplay us by too decisive of a margin, and maybe we even nick an away goal" strategem.

Simeone deserves much praise, but mostly for his motivational work, not his coaching.

 

[Live in the Now]

Atletico's players deserve the praise for being selfless and sacrificing the individual qualities they have in favor of the good of their team. As well as for being tactically adaptable because they don't play that defensively every week.

 

[Vipers31]

How about overall picture? You like the sound of that better?

I don't care about the sound, but sure, talking overall picture makes sense. And the overall picture isn't remotely as negative as you and many paint it. That's the entire point. If you make it all about winning the CL in one of these years, it's about six semfinal games - that isn't damning on any "overall picture", either. The actual overall picture is overwhelmingly positive; those six games are the only mark, and all of them have different tones. When it comes to singular games like those, "big picture" talk just doesn't mean much.

I'm not going to make you see it differently, though.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Simeone deserves much praise, but mostly for his motivational work, not his coaching.

I disagree. Simeone's defensive organization is outstanding and singular, and his switch from 4-4-2 to 4-1-4-1 at halftime had a positive effect. Pep did outcoach him in the second match, though. Just like he generally has outcoached Klopp, Mourinho, Tuchel, or whichever other coaches many fans put ahead of him

 

[Pouchkine]

The ones that happen the most often are holding the shirts stuff and that's the one I called maybe 2-3 times at most.The play we saw today is VERY RARE, I wouldn't be surprised the referee thought the initial contact was inside and didn't see the second one, so it's possible he saw it wrongly but by luck and good camera work on the replays made the right call!

You see "good defender" at times hold an opponent just outside the box and then let go just before the guy goes into the box! They know the rules!

 

[Power Man]

 

[cgf]

I disagree. Simeone's defensive organization is outstanding and singular, and his switch from 4-4-2 to 4-1-4-1 at halftime had a positive effect. Pep did outcoach him in the second match, though. Just like he generally has outcoached Klopp, Mourinho, Tuchel, or whichever other coaches many fans put ahead of him

He absolute does organize that team extremely well defensively, but that's only part of the overall tactical & strategic battle; which he lost in this tie. I'm not saying he's a liability tactically or anything of the sort. Only that, though he's a quality manager tactically, that isn't what makes him stand out. The inspiration he provided his men to buy into his defensive instructions and strategy, is what what he did that should be praised for helping decide this tie. Cause he lost this thing tactically.

 

[Deficient Mode]

He absolute does organize that team extremely well defensively, but that's only part of the overall tactical & strategic battle; which he lost in this tie. I'm not saying he's a liability tactically or anything of the sort. Only that, though he's a quality manager tactically, that isn't what makes him stand out. The inspiration he provided his men to buy into his defensive instructions and strategy, is what what he did that should be praised for helping decide this tie. Cause he lost this thing tactically.

Meh, I guess. Some combination of tactics and motivation. Atletico still did a lot of the things they normally do right in this match, and they did better at the Allianz than any other team that faced a fully motivated Bayern there this year.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

The overall picture in the CL? You mean how three years in a row Bayern finished first in their group and won two more ties after that? Or do only the matches he lost count as part of the bigger picture?

Bayern has recently alternated between teacher/experimental type coaches (van Gaal and Guardiola) followed by more conventional coaches who take advantage of the advances the teachers made in the team (Heynckes and Ancelotti). That pattern could very well continue.

Do you think he deserves credit for group stage games and first two knockout rounds? I personally don't think so. Harsh or not, when you manage one of the best clubs in the world, you are judged by very high standards. Last two stages of the UCL and winning your league.

Also, I said Guardiola was overrated, not that he's horrible. He's not been a complete disaster at Bayern, just didn't meet what I thought should've been the expectations. Plenty of good coaches, a category he fits in, don't meet expectations.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Simeone didn't out-coach Pep. He instilled a stronger self-confidence/self-belief in his men than Pep did, which in large part created the good fortune that they benefitted from...but his strategy for dealing with Bayern amounted to "keep the game close enough for a lucky break to decide it!" It worked because Bayern was poor in the first leg, but it's not like Athleti was able to take advantage of that to outplay Bayern at any point in this tie. That first match was an absolute toss up, one that Simeone's side managed to end up on the right side of; not a convincing triumph, like they achieved in the previous round. While in this leg, his tactics forced his team into the "hopefully they don't outplay us by too decisive of a margin, and maybe we even nick an away goal" strategem.

Simeone deserves much praise, but mostly for his motivational work, not his coaching.

His tactics are good for the side he has though. It makes no sense for them to do anything other than what you said. Sit tight because you don't have the technical and creative players that Bayern does while having a defensive that can keep in you in the tie even if they are under big pressure, and hope to capitalize on the mistakes of a team who has been known to make some defensive mistakes, despite dominating possession.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Do you think he deserves credit for group stage games and first two knockout rounds? I personally don't think so. Harsh or not, when you manage one of the best clubs in the world, you are judged by very high standards. Last two stages of the UCL and winning your league.

Also, I said Guardiola was overrated, not that he's horrible. He's not been a complete disaster at Bayern, just didn't meet what I thought should've been the expectations. Plenty of good coaches, a category he fits in, don't meet expectations.

He didn't meet my expectations either. This Bayern team wasn't as awesome as his Barca team, but he still put together the best teams ever in the Bundesliga. You have to see things with some perspective.

 

[Deficient Mode]

 

[theprofessor]

Now this is simply because old Bayern fans are typically idiots.

Das ist harte Kritik.

 

[Panteras]

RVN was so lethal back in his prime. My favorite striker.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Your "lately" last 3 years?

It's certainly not a long time and yet, Pep still has more trophies in that time.

He didn't even get them to the final three straight seasons. Thats the best squad in the world, has been since he got there. No UCL finals. He was a failure at Bayern, and his Barca record is hard to judge since he walked into a job with the GOAT.

What a loser how could he not!

Yeah, look at what brace's done with him there and without him. There's a reason that even after a table some are not convinced by Lucho.

 

[Hadoop]

Thrilled to hear Atletico were victorious. Really felt that Bayern playing at home would be able to overturn the deficit esp. with Boatang back and the expected tactical adjustments from Pep. Glad I was wrong.

Third year in a row I'll be rooting for one of the CL finalists. I'm 0 for 2... is it 3rd time lucky? .

 

[Halladay]

No team in the 53 years of the Bundesliga had ever won it 4 times in a row, up until this Bayern run. Pep was in charge of three if them. In fact only two other times had German team won three in a row, Bayern and BMG in the 70's. No way is he a failure at Bayern, though I still believe it is debatable whether he is the best manager in the world.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

No team in the 53 years of the Bundesliga had ever won it 4 times in a row, up until this Bayern run. Pep was in charge of three if them. In fact only two other times had German team won three in a row, Bayern and BMG in the 70's. No way is he a failure at Bayern, though I still believe it is debatable whether he is the best manager in the world.

Who would be the alternative?

 

[Live in the Now]

Who would be the alternative?

Some would say Carlo or Simeone. Already explained why saying Simeone doesn't cut it. He's shown some great tactics but nobody proclaimed Benitez the best when he did the same things and won a CL.