GWT: Champions League Semi-Finals

[YNWA14]

I don't know that you can ever really crown one person as the best manager in the world. How can you really say Pep is the best when he's only ever managed literally the two best teams in the world? His consistency in getting those top teams to play like top teams is definitely great, but he'll never have an accomplishment like say Ranieri who just created possibly the biggest underdog title win the history of any sport (mostly because he'll always play for the best teams with the most money).

I think it's kind of pointless to try and say one manager is the best in the world. They're not comparable in the same way that players are.

Some would say Carlo or Simeone. Already explained why saying Simeone doesn't cut it. He's shown some great tactics but nobody proclaimed Benitez the best when he did the same things and won a CL.

Benitez's accomplishments were great, but the footballing landscape was also different back then. He also never won the league with Liverpool facing modern day RM and Barca.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Not gonna get mired into it. I think Pep's a world-class manager, I just don't like him managing my favorite club. I'm bittersweet that he's leaving, he's definitely improved a lot of things but I feel like his unorthodoxy eventually became his orthodoxy - the intense pressing, high-possession behemoth at times became a lazy, rely-on-the-wingers, low-tempo borefest.

The match was a cracker, all the credit to Atletico and I hope they win it - they certainly deserve it after the show they put on in the first leg, utter domination.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Not gonna get mired into it. I think Pep's a world-class manager, I just don't like him managing my favorite club. I'm bittersweet that he's leaving, he's definitely improved a lot of things but I feel like his unorthodoxy eventually became his orthodoxy - the intense pressing, high-possession behemoth at times became a lazy, rely-on-the-wingers, low-tempo borefest.

The match was a cracker, all the credit to Atletico and I hope they win it - they certainly deserve it after the show they put on in the first leg, utter domination.

Well that's more credit than a lot of Bayern fans gave him and a fair assessment. I don't want him managing your favorite club either.

 

[Evilo]

Not gonna get mired into it. I think Pep's a world-class manager, I just don't like him managing my favorite club. I'm bittersweet that he's leaving, he's definitely improved a lot of things but I feel like his unorthodoxy eventually became his orthodoxy - the intense pressing, high-possession behemoth at times became a lazy, rely-on-the-wingers, low-tempo borefest.

The match was a cracker, all the credit to Atletico and I hope they win it - they certainly deserve it after the show they put on in the first leg, utter domination.

Yes, possession teams tend to forget that second gear exists. They're happy to keep the ball away and can lack urgency.
Clearly not in yesterday's game, but it does happen very often.
PSG fans can confirm that.

 

[les Habs]

Some laughable commentary on Guardiola in this thread. Sure he is responsible to some degree for Bayern going out, but people who think that Gotze would have changed the tie or that Muller not starting in the first leg would have either are being quite speculative at best. That's not to mention the pass that the players are getting for their role in Bayern going out.

As for Pep's track record, sure he's had two great sides at his disposal, but there's so much more to it than that. When he took over Barça the team was on a downward spiral and he turned it around completely in just his first season in charge, and that was with offloading the likes of Ronaldinho and Deco. People make ridiculous statements like "any manager could have done that" when it's not remotely the case. And the same applies to Bayern if you look at the level of play. At the end of the day Pep has won the following in just six seasons:

-5 league titles
-2 CLs
-2 Cups
-3 Club World Cups
-3 Uefa Super Cups
-3 Spanish Super Cups

When this season is all said and done it could very well be another league and another cup. Even if it's not that's a tremendous track record. Not a single manager would have done what he did in 08-09 much less with the same teams during this period. And now compare that to Mourinho's record in nearly twice the time. Fair enough if you don't like Guardiola, I'm not a big myself at the moment, but at least try and post with some sense. Making the CL Semis every season you've managed at the top flight is a helluva achivement no matter where you're managing.

As for Messi, I agree that he'd be the best in the World regardless of Guardiola's presence. That said Guardiola surely made an impact. What's more who ever heard of Busquets or Pedro before Guardiola came along? Neither player was considered a future star and now Busquets is the best player in his position in the World. You've also got the likes of Xavi who Guardiola actually knew how to utilize and who also became the best player in the World in his position. Mascherano who wasn't a CB and has since been one of the best in the World multiple seasons since. Seydou Keita who clearly was a better player under Guardiola. Abidal too, and that's just Barça and just off the top of my head. Guardiola has a proven track record of making players better.

 

[Evilo]

As for Messi, I agree that he'd be the best in the World regardless of Guardiola's presence. That said Guardiola surely made an impact. What's more who ever heard of Busquets or Pedro before Guardiola came along? Neither player was considered a future star and now Busquets is the best player in his position in the World. You've also got the likes of Xavi who Guardiola actually knew how to utilize and who also became the best player in the World in his position. Mascherano who wasn't a CB and has since been one of the best in the World multiple seasons since. Seydou Keita who clearly was a better player under Guardiola. Abidal too, and that's just Barça and just off the top of my head. Guardiola has a proven track record of making players better.

There's a difference between making them better and them being under the spotlight.

To think Abidal was made better under Guardiola is laughable.

 

[les Habs]

There's a difference between making them better and them being under the spotlight.

To think Abidal was made better under Guardiola is laughable.

And yet the players I said he did make better he did make better, Abidal included. You can argue the degree, but they were better, Abidal included.

 

[Power Man]

How did he make Abidal better?

Not arguing, just curious tbh

 

[Evilo]

Really curious. Since he was a dominant defenseman with Lyon. And a member of the NT already.

 

[hatterson]

Yes, possession teams tend to forget that second gear exists. They're happy to keep the ball away and can lack urgency.
Clearly not in yesterday's game, but it does happen very often.
PSG fans can confirm that.

United fan. Can confirm.
Spent soooo many hours this seasons yelling at the team to stop freaking cycling it back to half, up the wing, back to half, up the other wing, back to half, back to De Gea, etc without ever taking a shot or trying to get a real chance.
Granted that's not entirely the same since they're far from world class right now, but it's the same base problem cause they were doing it against teams they had a large talent advantage over.

 

[BSHH]

No team in the 53 years of the Bundesliga had ever won it 4 times in a row, up until this Bayern run. Pep was in charge of three if them. In fact only two other times had German team won three in a row, Bayern and BMG in the 70's. No way is he a failure at Bayern, though I still believe it is debatable whether he is the best manager in the world.

The financial advantage Munich had over its competition has grown exponentially over the last years. Right now, Munich is going to lure away the third key player from its lone competitor. Thus, repeating the BL championship is an accomplishment, yet not an overly impressive one.

When interviewed by German TV yesterday (in Spanish by the way, which was very unusual), he answered that making an evaluation of his time in Munich would be a task for the journalists. However, according to a Guardian article, Guardiola himself said he considers missing out on the CL title a failure. I second that.

Some would say Carlo or Simeone. Already explained why saying Simeone doesn't cut it. He's shown some great tactics but nobody proclaimed Benitez the best when he did the same things and won a CL.

Benitez' win with Liverpool was a bit of a fluke. His team sucked in the national championship in that same season, so the former proud club had to whine and beg to have the rules changed. Anyway, I considered Benitez one of the best coaches in the world then. He came down really hard afterwards, though...

The seems to be consensus that this current era is dominated by three clubs, Barcelona, Real and Munich. Simeone's Atletico has closed the gap to all of these while constantly giving away star players like Falcao, Diego Costa or Arda Turan.

Gruß,
BSHH

 

[Ben Grimm]

Good North Americans always root for Britain against the world!

 

[Ivan13]

The financial advantage Munich had over its competition has grown exponentially over the last years. Right now, Munich is going to lure away the third key player from its lone competitor. Thus, repeating the BL championship is an accomplishment, yet not an overly impressive one.

When interviewed by German TV yesterday (in Spanish by the way, which was very unusual), he answered that making an evaluation of his time in Munich would be a task for the journalists. However, according to a Guardian article, Guardiola himself said he considers missing out on the CL title a failure. I second that.


Benitez' win with Liverpool was a bit of a fluke. His team sucked in the national championship in that same season, so the former proud club had to whine and beg to have the rules changed. Anyway, I considered Benitez one of the best coaches in the world then. He came down really hard afterwards, though...

The seems to be consensus that this current era is dominated by three clubs, Barcelona, Real and Munich. Simeone's Atletico has closed the gap to all of these while constantly giving away star players like Falcao, Diego Costa or Arda Turan.

Gruß,
BSHH

Agreed wholeheartedly. It makes no sense to compare Bayern as it stands right now, to the eras in the past. And this doesn't just ring true with them, today's football means that the cash strongly dictates the strength of the team, and the gap between the elite teams and the very good ones has never been greater.

Winning 4 straight in the BuLi with their budget is an expectation, not something noteworthy, had they not won it in any year of his reign it would be seen as a massive failure.

 

[hatterson]

Money doesn't always equal a dominant team. Wolfsburg spent ~80% of what Bayern did on net for the last 4-5 years (until this year) and didn't get anything from it.

His first two years they spent a total of 26M, so it's not like he's maintained top form by just going gangbusters with buying talent. Granted in the 2 years prior they had dropped a total of 116.9M (primarily highlighted by Javi and Neuer) so it's not like he was walking into an empty house, but he still gets credit for making smart purchases, selling the excess he had and maintaining top form.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Winning 4 straight in the BuLi with their budget is an expectation, not something noteworthy, had they not won it in any year of his reign it would be seen as a massive failure.

Boy I'm glad I'm not a Bayern fan if winning the league means nothing

 

[Luigi Habs]

Boy I'm glad I'm not a Bayern fan if winning the league means nothing

As a Juve fan who won the scudettos for 5 consecutive years, for me if Juve don't get to the CL semis I consider it as a failure, regardless of what happens in Serie A because at this point I expect them to win it every year, until the Milan clubs get their **** together.

 

[Ivan13]

Boy I'm glad I'm not a Bayern fan if winning the league means nothing

Yeah, that's what I said

Please tell me with a straight face that Bayern not winning in any of those four years wouldn't be seen as a massive disappointment.

 

[Ivan13]

Money doesn't always equal a dominant team. Wolfsburg spent ~80% of what Bayern did on net for the last 4-5 years (until this year) and didn't get anything from it.

His first two years they spent a total of 26M, so it's not like he's maintained top form by just going gangbusters with buying talent. Granted in the 2 years prior they had dropped a total of 116.9M (primarily highlighted by Javi and Neuer) so it's not like he was walking into an empty house, but he still gets credit for making smart purchases, selling the excess he had and maintaining top form.

He came in into a team that just had won it all, and that was beyond stacked. Bayern had been in the Final for the 3 out of the 5 previous editions of the Champions league.

As for his purchases, he missed on as many as he scored on.

 

[Deficient Mode]

As a Juve fan who won the scudettos for 5 consecutive years, for me if Juve don't get to the CL semis I consider it as a failure, regardless of what happens in Serie A because at this point I expect them to win it every year, until the Milan clubs get their **** together.

My condolences.

Yeah, that's what I said

Please tell me with a straight face that Bayern not winning in any of those four years wouldn't be seen as a massive disappointment.

It wouldn't have been a massive disappointment if they had lost this year. Leicester City wrapped up their league before Bayern.

 

[Ivan13]

My condolences.



It wouldn't have been a massive disappointment if they had lost this year. Leicester City wrapped up their league before Bayern.

With all due respect to BVB (a club I like more than FC Hollywoood) looking at the rosters, one would surely expect that Bayern comes on top during the course of the season.

As for Juve, as a fan of Milan, they have no real competition in the Serie A, which is a double edged sword, makes it easy to win the league, but hinders you in international competition because you aren't tested on even semi-regular basis in your domestic competitions.

 

[Deficient Mode]

With all due respect to BVB (a club I like more than FC Hollywoood) looking at the rosters, one would surely expect that Bayern comes on top during the course of the season.

As for Juve, as a fan of Milan, they have no real competition in the Serie A, which is a double edged sword, makes it easy to win the league, but hinders you in international competition because you aren't tested on even semi-regular basis in your domestic competitions.

If Bayern had started the season like Juve did, they wouldn't have won the league. The game isn't played on paper. One would expect Bayern to come out on top, but it shouldn't have been a "massive disappointment" if they hadn't.

I don't buy the second paragraph at all. It's just as much of an unfounded narrative as its opposite, which is also used to excuse the performance of EPL teams in this competition, namely that they have too much domestic competition that wears them out.

 

[Evilo]

Lol, Blanc is going to win two trebles in a row and he's still considered half-bad because he fails in the CL QF.

 

[hatterson]

He's also spent 250 million in a league where only 2 other teams have negative transfer balances over that time and one of those (Marseille) is only around -6M. And that doesn't include the 250M they spent the two years before he got there.

If someone wants to mention how Pep winning the league isn't impressive because it should just be assumed with finances, PSG is the ultra example of that. They've spent more money than anyone else while he's been there and they play in the worst of the big leagues. Winning the treble should be the expectation for them.

 

[Evilo]

Well, that's my point. It IS the expectation. And if he doesn't, he out in a NY minute.
If did, and got eliminated one round before Bayern and yet this year was seen as a massive disapointment.
Bayern should win the league every year and any other result is a disapointment.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Good North Americans always root for Britain against the world!

As a French Canadian, all I have to say to this is: LOL