GWT: Champions League Semi-Finals

[YNWA14]

Guardiola is the one who had the foresight to play Messi as a striker when all his other coaches played him in midfield or on the wing. To act like Guardiola had nothing to do with Messi's success is extremely wrong. The best player in the world has won one CL since Guardiola left four seasons ago so maybe he had a lot more to do with it than you think.

Messi would have become the best player in the world if Alan Pardew were coaching Barcelona.

 

[Live in the Now]

Yeah he missed Guardiola so much he scored 46 goals when he left...

Amazing...

You can revisit posts on Messi from 10 years ago on this website. Make a search. You'll see that when Messi toyed in the U18 WC, some posters here said he might already be the best in the world.

And Guardiola was nowhere to be found then.

You know I watched all those games and that I was here so I don't have to search them. In 2008, when Pep was not at Barcelona, he was not the best player in the world. The best player in the world at that particular moment led United to the CL Final and then won the CL with 42 goals in 49 games. Or was Kaka. But Messi wasn't the best player in the world before Guardiola got there and there's no revising that history. He also, like I just said, was not played in the position where he went on to flourish until Guardiola got there.

 

[Live in the Now]

Messi would have become the best player in the world if Alan Pardew were coaching Barcelona.

You don't really know that. Let's deal in some reality here. He was at his absolute best with 73 goals in a season and winning nearly everything with Guardiola at Barcelona. Not with anyone else. Xavi and Iniesta also became much better players with Pep to name a few. In the haze of what's just happened people tend to become reactionary.

 

[Vipers31]

You know I watched all those games and that I was here so I don't have to search them. In 2008, when Pep was not at Barcelona, he was not the best player in the world. The best player in the world at that particular moment led United to the CL Final and then won the CL with 42 goals in 49 games. Or was Kaka. But Messi wasn't the best player in the world before Guardiola got there and there's no revising that history. He also, like I just said, was not played in the position where he went on to flourish until Guardiola got there.

Yeah, it's kinda hard to not at least give credit to Pep for helping Messi fulfill his potential as well as he did, as quickly as he did.

Although I find the debate to be comically misplaced tonight (not that I blame you for its existence), but that's just Bayern fan in me, I guess.

 

[Live in the Now]

I don't remember everyone swallowing Benitez when he did the same thing as Simeone, playing similar football, plus actually winning a CL in the process. Nobody called him the best manager in the world then. Let's be serious right now.

 

[BSHH]

Did Simeone punch an UEFA official or - so it seems to me - an Atletico staff member? The latter is obnoxious nonetheless, but would not lead to him being banned.

That is a bitter, undeserved and painful end for Munich's campaign. But when I think of the time when Guardiola arrived in Munich, seemingly everybody went overboard about how much he would improve the team (which won the triple a few weeks before). That's when I wondered if Guardiola might be a bit overrated. This was a very unlucky result, but I consider Munich to have at least the second best roster, which once again fell a bit short when it mattered.

Gruß,
BSHH

 

[Power Man]

lol Pep Jackson not starting Muller in the 1st leg

 

[Live in the Now]

Yeah, it's kinda hard to not at least give credit to Pep for helping Messi fulfill his potential as well as he did, as quickly as he did.

Although I find the debate to be comically misplaced tonight (not that I blame you for its existence), but that's just Bayern fan in me, I guess.

Everyone is trying to tear down all of Pep's accomplishments. It's silly for sure. But if it was so easy to do it why is Pep the only manager currently going to make four CL SF's in a row. It's actually a lot more now that I think about it. He's never MISSED a CL SF. I'm not trying to tear down Ferguson at all, but Ferguson only ever made two straight CL SF's. That's extreme consistency on Pep's part.

Why is everyone asking him to do this with City to prove himself when somebody else is doing this with them right now? That's a strange standard in my opinion. Bayern is certainly obviously not as good as his Barcelona teams were, and the players didn't fit to ever make them as good. Still they've won a boatload of trophies and made the last four in this competition routinely. The consistency is something to be applauded. The only reason we are even talking about him at this moment is because his squads have been remarkably consistent.

 

[hatterson]

Did Simeone punch an UEFA official or - so it seems to me - an Atletico staff member? The latter is obnoxious nonetheless, but would not lead to him being banned.

That is a bitter, undeserved and painful end for Munich's campaign. But when I think of the time when Guardiola arrived in Munich, seemingly everybody went overboard about how much he would improve the team (which won the triple a few weeks before). That's when I wondered if Guardiola might be a bit overrated. This was a very unlucky result, but I consider Munich to have at least the second best roster, which once again fell a bit short when it mattered.

Gruß,
BSHH

I'm not entirely sure who it was. It wasn't the 4th official, although it did look like he was holding the 4th officials board for him so I'd have to assume it was a FIFA official. Either way he stayed right near the 4th official so it *shouldn't* have been an Atleti staff member as they wouldn't have been allowed to stay there.



That's a cap of it, but it's not available in my country so I can't tell for sure.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Simeone pushed a UEFA official. He'll probably be suspended for the final.

 

[Vipers31]

It's not like you're allowed to punch your teammates / team officials. Still unsportsmanlike and due a red card, anyway.

 

[HajdukSplit]

The guy Simeone slapped is actually an Atletico official, which will probably spare him from a touchline ban or they simply delay it for next season

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Apparently that was not a UEFA official, but an Atleti one.

http://fotos00.diarioinformacion.com/2013/11/29/318x200/sixto-marco.jpg

 

[Live in the Now]

I'm sure that guy has been smacked by Simeone numerous times. He's probably the only one with the temperament to handle being smacked, that's why Simeone did it to him.

 

[Vipers31]

The guy Simeone slapped is actually an Atletico official, which will probably spare him from a touchline ban or they simply delay it for next season

Apparently that was not a UEFA official, but an Atleti one.

http://fotos00.diarioinformacion.com/2013/11/29/318x200/sixto-marco.jpg

It doesn't make a difference by the rules, mind you. Still a red card.

It just takes a bit of pressure off UEFA to enforce it. Simeone is the main storyline for Atletico, so I can see them wanting him in there.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Two CL finals (at least), a Liga title and a good challenge to Barca and Real in this year's race.
Somehow you don't feel it's more than what Guardiola's done with Munich?

And with a quarter of his ressources player wise?

Guardiola's team has been stronger overall the past three years than Atletico, yes. He didn't reach the CL final, but that has a lot to do with the way the draw worked out. Both times Bayern faced the eventual champion in the semifinals. Last year they were imo the second strongest team in the competition.

How can you be the best manager in the world when you can't even get the best squad in the world to the final three straight seasons?

Besides walking into the best player in the world in his prime, Pep has done nothing to deserve this reputation. His team's play nice football, but so do Arsene Wenger's.

Barca and Real both have better squads. Pep is like Wenger...if Wenger were actually great at counterpressing.

Pep didn't walk into ****. He also is responsible for the career of one of the best players in the world (Busquets), and he also revitalized the careers of Iniesta and Xavi.

 

[Deficient Mode]

second or third best then. There is no way I can even entertain a discussion that Bayern has had anything less than a top 3 squad the last three seasons. I feel like there's more depth in Bayern's squad than Barca, and RM's squad has so many big names but they don't fit well together. Bayern has a good mix of cohesion, depth and top level players.

Depth of a squad doesn't matter if the entire first team stays healthy like Barca's did! The same goes for arguments about Atletico having a quarter of the resources... they still had the resources to buy a first 11 with multiple world class players. At some point, the resources available to a football club have more to do with securing the club in the future and buying depth players in the case of injuries. If everyone stays healthy, the playing field is far more even.

 

[Live in the Now]

Barca and Real both have better squads. Pep is like Wenger...if Wenger were actually great at counterpressing.

Wenger also had arguably the best team in the world at one point. Imagine if he didn't win a European trophy with it in this era of social media, with them going out in the QF and Porto eventually winning it. Would be pure anarchy.

It seems like the notion is that being great isn't great enough unless the team wins every single honor available. Treble or bust mentality. I think that's an incredibly unrealistic standard to say the least.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Everyone is trying to tear down all of Pep's accomplishments. It's silly for sure. But if it was so easy to do it why is Pep the only manager currently going to make four CL SF's in a row. It's actually a lot more now that I think about it. He's never MISSED a CL SF. I'm not trying to tear down Ferguson at all, but Ferguson only ever made two straight CL SF's. That's extreme consistency on Pep's part.

Why is everyone asking him to do this with City to prove himself when somebody else is doing this with them right now? That's a strange standard in my opinion. Bayern is certainly obviously not as good as his Barcelona teams were, and the players didn't fit to ever make them as good. Still they've won a boatload of trophies and made the last four in this competition routinely. The consistency is something to be applauded. The only reason we are even talking about him at this moment is because his squads have been remarkably consistent.

Absolutely. Pep does a lot of unconventional things that many reactionary fans hate. Most of them work extraordinarily well (e.g. exchanging Toure for Busquets) but some of them don't, and these fans focus on the latter. As I've said before, I doubt Ancelotti will be nearly as consistent with Bayern, even if Bayern do win this competition under him.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Wenger also had arguably the best team in the world at one point. Imagine if he didn't win a European trophy with it in this era of social media, with them going out in the QF and Porto eventually winning it. Would be pure anarchy.

It seems like the notion is that being great isn't great enough unless the team wins every single honor available. Treble or bust mentality. I think that's an incredibly unrealistic standard to say the least.

A lot of ex-Bayern players and coaches, as well as some of their executive figures, have played into this with comments in the media. The media has made little effort to understand what Pep does, and simply magnifies his most obvious unexpected decisions ("didn't play Müller") to ridiculous proportions.

 

[Virtanen18]

Leading up to that he was also playing keepaway with the ball not letting Bayern make a throw-in. On a scale of class to trash, there's no denying which end he feels more at home in

He pulled the ball back for a second cause he wanted to make a sub.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Depth of a squad doesn't matter if the entire first team stays healthy like Barca's did!

So do substitutions not happen during a game? Pep made 1 sub and left Thiago and Goetze on the bench in this match, not taking advantage of his team's superior depth when he needed a goal.

Besides, Atletico's 11 is no where near as good as Bayern's. They have a few players who could get into the Bayern team, but the rest would be deemed not good enough to play for Bayern. Fernando Torres plays a pivotal attacking role for Atletico, lets not act like this team has great players at every position.

 

[cgf]

The fact is that a superior roster isn't enough to guarantee results in a two legged tie. That's not undefendable at all. Any team - even Barca last year - needs a fair share of luck to win this competition.

Pep obviously gets way too much **** from so many people. But he's a prime example of making you own bad luck, with his over-cautiousness and overly conservative decisions in big matches. That are made from a place of fearing something going wrong, instead of from the irrational self-belief needed to make things go right.

And that's absolutely a fair critique of him, even today; where Bayern were much more threatening and dominant than in the first leg.

 

[Live in the Now]

A lot of ex-Bayern players and coaches, as well as some of their executive figures, have played into this with comments in the media. The media has made little effort to understand what Pep does, and simply magnifies his most obvious unexpected decisions ("didn't play Müller") to ridiculous proportions.

Those people are also ignoring certain circumstances. For example how big a part Thiago would have played in his Bayern squad had he not gotten injured. He was integral to Pep's plans when he took the Bayern job and he got hurt and didn't really become the player he could have been.

People will say it's Bayern and they could have replaced Thiago, but that's not how football works. He was the perfect fit for Pep's plan and we'll never know how that would have gone. Point is about all the things I've said here, it doesn't always come down to the manager. The manager's job is to guide the team to these big games as best they can.

If anything is at Pep's feet it has to be not being aggressive enough in the away leg. All the top managers have been guilty of this at some point. Muller absolutely should have made the penalty though. Given Bayern wouldn't have been so aggressive after that, we'll never know how the rest of the game would have gone.

 

[Deficient Mode]

So do substitutions not happen during a game? Pep made 1 sub and left Thiago and Goetze on the bench in this match, not taking advantage of his team's superior depth when he needed a goal.

Besides, Atletico's 11 is no where near as good as Bayern's. They have a few players who could get into the Bayern team, but the rest would be deemed not good enough to play for Bayern. Fernando Torres plays a pivotal attacking role for Atletico, lets not act like this team has great players at every position.

Your obsession with Pep omitting Götze is absurd. Pep had a great tactical approach to this match and his players executed it really well to the end. Götze had no place in what Bayern was doing.