Confirmed Trade: [CGY/ARI] Michael Stone at 50% retained FOR 2017 3rd round pick and a 2018 cndl 5th

[Machinehead]

I know, man.

You're the smartest guy in all of hockey. I haven't forgotten.

I did think that Zone Starts have no correlation to Corsi in any way shape or form, as per you, so I don't understand how any chart graphing the two on any comparative level is valid.

Oh, wait, yes I do...

I didn't make these charts nor I do I agree with every single thing on them.

 

[Lunatik]

Yeah, there's this thing called goaltending...



...and goaltending is exactly why.

the Flames goaltending was below average and you are using it as the reason he was on the ice for more goals for than against? This just gets more ridiculous with every post. But I'm done listening to this stupidity. You're welcome to continue but I won't be seeing it.

 

[1989]

Nice pickup for Calgary.

Pros:
- Paid a reasonable price in draft pick(s)
- Received 50% off the cap hit on a player who is overpaid at $4m (should be more of a $2-3m player upon potential re-signing)
- Moves Wideman down/off the top 6 (make your penalty jokes here)
- If slotted with Brodie, will be given more sheltered minutes than his former role with Ekman-Larsson; may see an improvement in overall performance
- Is a former Hitmen captain with family ties to the city, who is UFA and therefore does not need to be protected in the Expansion Draft but who has good reason to sign in Calgary post-Expansion Draft
- Lastly, but importantly: can be dumped easily if he cannot mesh with Calgary defence corps

Cons:
- Might perform well in Calgary and still lose him in UFA and therefore lose a pick for nothing
- Might really suck and leave for nothing
- Might suck and be re-signed for more than he's worth


Good trade for Arizona too, but there are fewer incentives for them. I do believe that Stone is more of a #4, and his trade price reflects that. If Calgary manages to make the playoffs, it's highly unlikely they'll sweat the draft pick or the impending UFA status (in case Stone makes it clear he has low interest in signing.)

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Simply put, if you think Russell was bad in Calgary, you are wrong. I don't give a **** what some stupid chart says. If you watched him in St. Louis, then watched him in Calgary the difference was night and day. Hockey is a game where not everything can be measured on some stupid graph.

"some stupid chart" is better than your, and most other people's, anecdotal "evidence"

and it's not even close

 

[Del Preston]

13-14 Flames: 31-31-6 with Russell, 4-9-1 without; 2nd most EV TOI
14-15 Flames: 44-28-7 with, 1-2-0 without; 2nd most
15-16 Flames: 22-26-3 with, 4-5-1 without; 2nd most
15-16 Stars: 7-2-2 with, 5-2-0 without; most
16-17 Oilers: 26-13-8 with; 6-6-0 without; most

That can't all be luck.

 

[Volica]

13-14 Flames: 31-31-6 with Russell, 4-9-1 without; 2nd most EV TOI
14-15 Flames: 44-28-7 with, 1-2-0 without; 2nd most
15-16 Flames: 22-26-3 with, 4-5-1 without; 2nd most
15-16 Stars: 7-2-2 with, 5-2-0 without; most
16-17 Oilers: 26-13-8 with; 5-6-0 without; most

That can't all be luck.

Hockey nerds hate Russ.
Teammates, and normal fans love the little warrior.


just about every GM says the same things about analytics; use them as a support tool. If people are interested in playing hockey with numbers, simply play NHL 2k-whatever stack the team up with +90 players and enjoy.

 

[JetsFan815]

Great trade for Chayka. Good for him for getting a good return on a struggling player.

Bad for Calgary. Nothing too disastrous but a shame they spent a 3rd when they could have claimed a much better or at the very least equal d-man for free off of waivers (Barberio, Redmond, Marchenko, Corrado) or gotten a much better player for much cheaper in a trade (Nesterov)

 

[Summer Rose]

Obviously I would have liked more for Stone; fans of teams who trade players almost always want more than what they actually get.

At the end of the day I think it's fair. Stone hasn't shown much more than a flash in the pan, and is struggling to recover from his injury. I view it more as a "maybe a change of scenery will get him going" trade, for which a 3rd and conditional 5th is fair. Flames take a chance but not a huge one, Coyotes aren't letting him walk for nothing. How he plays after the trade could turn the trade into a steal for Calgary. Sets the stage for future trades' returns.

 

[Batrous]

A good deal for both sides. The Coyotes get a pair of potential mid range picks in the next 2 drafts to help fill up the prospect pool for a d-men who on most teams is a 5/6 d-man. Assuming he is re-signed of course. For the flames they add more defensive and get an nhl d-men that could if needed fill in as a 2nd line d-man for a time.

This also goes to show what the real price of the market is for a d-man of this quality.

 

[Lunatik]

13-14 Flames: 31-31-6 with Russell, 4-9-1 without; 2nd most EV TOI
14-15 Flames: 44-28-7 with, 1-2-0 without; 2nd most
15-16 Flames: 22-26-3 with, 4-5-1 without; 2nd most
15-16 Stars: 7-2-2 with, 5-2-0 without; most
16-17 Oilers: 26-13-8 with; 5-6-0 without; most

That can't all be luck.

But it is apparently. He's a terrible player because Corsi and Hero charts say so.
Advanced stats people need to learn that these so called advanced stats are not the be all and end all of stats and anyone that takes them as such are limiting themselves to just a fraction of the truth.

 

[hatcher]

****ing corsi graph's are the moost stupid thing a fan can follow.

 

[Paralyzer008]

13-14 Flames: 31-31-6 with Russell, 4-9-1 without; 2nd most EV TOI
14-15 Flames: 44-28-7 with, 1-2-0 without; 2nd most
15-16 Flames: 22-26-3 with, 4-5-1 without; 2nd most
15-16 Stars: 7-2-2 with, 5-2-0 without; most
16-17 Oilers: 26-13-8 with; 5-6-0 without; most

That can't all be luck.

In 36 games, Russell owns a playoff record of 16-20 with a -5.

I think teams make the mistake of overrating Russell because of his warrior ability to block shots - at 5v5 (since joining CGY anyways) he's been leaning on it too much and that leads to extra chances in the defensive zone when he's on the ice. He has struggled to create a consistent transition game but he can still move the puck - the real problem is giving up the blueline every time to allow easy entries into the zone from the other team.

Russell ends up on a team's second pair and he's simply not good enough for that - those teams don't move onto the 3rd round or cup final. In the playoffs, when you allow easy entry like that, teams come at you faster and Russell has had issues handling that.

If a team (say, Edmonton) plays Russell on their 3rd pair with PK minutes - maybe averaging around 17-18 mins a game instead of 20+, I think he'd be MUCH more effective.

I think Michael Stone might be in a similar spot. Would be solid if he was playing 3rd pair minutes or something around 18 mins a night rather than 20+.

 

[Lunatik]

In 36 games, Russell owns a playoff record of 16-20 with a -5.

I think teams make the mistake of overrating Russell because of his warrior ability to block shots - at 5v5 (since joining CGY anyways) he's been leaning on it too much and that leads to extra chances in the defensive zone when he's on the ice. He has struggled to create a consistent transition game but he can still move the puck - the real problem is giving up the blueline every time to allow easy entries into the zone from the other team.

Russell ends up on a team's second pair and he's simply not good enough for that - those teams don't move onto the 3rd round or cup final. In the playoffs, when you allow easy entry like that, teams come at you faster and Russell has had issues handling that.

If a team (say, Edmonton) plays Russell on their 3rd pair with PK minutes - maybe averaging around 17-18 mins a game instead of 20+, I think he'd be MUCH more effective.

I think Michael Stone might be in a similar spot. Would be solid if he was playing 3rd pair minutes or something around 18 mins a night rather than 20+.

You completely mistook his point. The argument made was Russell is a terrible defenseman because of Corsi. He showed that teams are generally better with him in the lineup, if he was as bad as these Corsi bible thumpers claim, being removed from the lineup would benefit the team. No one is arguing that Russell should be in anyone's top 4. He's a #5 than can move up when there is an injury almost anyone whose seen him can attest to that.

 

[MMC]

Advanced stats and charts aren't everything but they can be useful to look at in addition to watching the game.

 

[Lunatik]

Advanced stats and charts aren't everything but they can be useful to look at in addition to watching the game.

In addition sure, but it should never be the crux of an argument

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Great trade for Chayka. Good for him for getting a good return on a struggling player.

Bad for Calgary. Nothing too disastrous but a shame they spent a 3rd when they could have claimed a much better or at the very least equal d-man for free off of waivers (Barberio, Redmond, Marchenko, Corrado) or gotten a much better player for much cheaper in a trade (Nesterov)

Yeah, none of those listed players are better than Stone. Barberio and Redmond are trash, Corrado is a meh #7, Marchenko is a #6 and Nesterov is a 5/6. Stone is a high end #4. Good trade for Calgary.

I would have loved for either the Bolts or Leafs to pony up a 2nd for him.

 

[InfinityIggy]

"some stupid chart" is better than your, and most other people's, anecdotal "evidence"

and it's not even close

Considering that 'buried' ect. is not a stat, but an extrapolation from a stat. The chart itself is pretty anecdotal because its making a correlation that may be untrue.

 

[Ashasx]

Great trade for Chayka. Good for him for getting a good return on a struggling player.

Bad for Calgary. Nothing too disastrous but a shame they spent a 3rd when they could have claimed a much better or at the very least equal d-man for free off of waivers (Barberio, Redmond, Marchenko, Corrado) or gotten a much better player for much cheaper in a trade (Nesterov)

As a Flames fan I'm not too high on Stone, but this is a 3rd round pick for an actual NHL player. Stone is having an exceptionally poor season coming off a serious injury, but I'll take the risk of him bouncing back (if even a little) if it's only a 3rd round pick. It's a trade that makes sense for both teams.

Out of the players you've listed, Barberio is the only one I'd prefer... and the Flames didn't even get a chance to claim him, so to fault the Flames for that is odd.

 

[McVirginOil]

Now we're using team records to show how good a player is? What?

EDM as of Feb. 1, 2012:
7-3-2 w/ Cam Barker
12-23-3 w/o Cam Barker
So Cam Barker is a good dman now?

EDM had a better record last year when McDavid was off the ice, so now McDavid is a bad player now?

It's literally all luck, you fail to factor in 19 other players on the ice and a billion other things.

 

[THall4]

Damn, was hoping the Oilers would've gotten Stone. Hopefully this trade sets the market on UFA's like Boyle, Vrbata, Hansen etc...

 

[Menzinger]

Ah the whole "that stats are wrong! because I said so!" Arguments coming out yet again.

Arizona gets a couple of picks for a lousy D man and Burke's team makes a trade for the sake of making a trade. Sounds about right

 

[Ashasx]

Ah the whole "that stats are wrong! because I said so!" Arguments coming out yet again.

Arizona gets a couple of picks for a lousy D man and Burke's team makes a trade for the sake of making a trade. Sounds about right

Stone has been bad this season, but he's coming off a serious injury after having trended up for many of his previous seasons. He was a good player last year. There is logic to this acquisition.

And a trade for the sake of making a trade? Tells us all you know about the Flames.

 

[SenzZen]

Genius GM John Chayka does it again!

 

[Charlie Conway]

Now we're using team records to show how good a player is? What?

EDM as of Feb. 1, 2012:
7-3-2 w/ Cam Barker
12-23-3 w/o Cam Barker
So Cam Barker is a good dman now?

EDM had a better record last year when McDavid was off the ice, so now McDavid is a bad player now?

It's literally all luck, you fail to factor in 19 other players on the ice and a billion other things.

Thing with McDavid, too, is that it wouldn't surprise me if his teammates work harder when he's not in the lineup.

But yeah, I agree. Record tells us nothing about players individually.

 

[tony d]

Good pickup for Calgary on Stone, was hoping Ottawa would have made a move for him.