Confirmed Trade: [CGY/ARI] Michael Stone at 50% retained FOR 2017 3rd round pick and a 2018 cndl 5th

[Del Preston]

Now we're using team records to show how good a player is? What?

EDM as of Feb. 1, 2012:
7-3-2 w/ Cam Barker
12-23-3 w/o Cam Barker
So Cam Barker is a good dman now?

EDM had a better record last year when McDavid was off the ice, so now McDavid is a bad player now?

It's literally all luck, you fail to factor in 19 other players on the ice and a billion other things.

The point is he's not nearly as bad as the advanced stats crowd says he is.

The Russell/Barker comparison doesn't work. One sample size is 256 games, the other is 12. Russell has played the most or 2nd most EV TOI/g for three different teams over the past four seasons. Barker was 7th among Oilers' defensemen in EV TOI/g in 2011-12.

ftr I'm not even a huge Russell fan.

 

[Blue Goose]

When I first saw the return, I thought it seemed underwhelming, but then I read this article.

“My wife is from Calgary and has lots of family out there. This way, she has a lot of help. We had twins in September so she’s going to need a lot of it. It’s an ideal situation if that’s the route it was going to go.â€

Looks like Chayka may have taken a little less to put Stone and his family in the best spot. Good on him.

 

[McSuper]

Stone is having a brutal year but worth giving up a 3rd for a UFA rental and see how it goes

not a "steal" as some people have said, but a worthy risk

And whats the chances of that 3rd becoming a NHL player ? Very low . Even if Stone is a bottom pairing D that is likely better then a 3rd round pick will ever be

 

[Dertell]

13-14 Flames: 31-31-6 with Russell, 4-9-1 without; 2nd most EV TOI
14-15 Flames: 44-28-7 with, 1-2-0 without; 2nd most
15-16 Flames: 22-26-3 with, 4-5-1 without; 2nd most
15-16 Stars: 7-2-2 with, 5-2-0 without; most
16-17 Oilers: 26-13-8 with; 5-6-0 without; most

That can't all be luck.

That table really doesn't say much and lol where are the "CONTEXT" people when you need them?

14-15 Flames: One L was a meaningless game the Heats played. The other two were against Chicago and Anaheim
15-16 Flames: Ramo (.909) started two of those games, Hiller (.879) five.
Stars and Oilers: Don't know, don't care.

Also, Engelland and Smid were the likely candidate for a large minute bump with Russell out of the lineup. Kinda important. There's Wideman as well but we were winning when that happened.

 

[playasRus]

The point is he's not nearly as bad as the advanced stats crowd says he is. The luck argument is just completely stupid. It's an excuse because they can't find any numbers to dispute why his teams are better when he plays.

Lol @ comparing Russell to Barker. One sample size is 256 games, the other is 12. Russell has played the most or 2nd most EV TOI/g for three different teams over the past four seasons. Barker was 7th among Oilers' defensemen in EV TOI/g in 2011-12.

ftr I'm not even a huge Russell fan.

With Russel 130-100-6, without 19-24-2 without though is much more telling of a sample size, especially since it replicates on multiple teams.

Barker's probably didn't replicate that 20 game trend on multiple teams.

 

[Del Preston]

That table really doesn't say much and lol where are the "CONTEXT" people when you need them?

14-15 Flames: One L was a meaningless game the Heats played. The other two were against Chicago and Anaheim
15-16 Flames: Ramo (.909) started two of those games, Hiller (.879) five.
Stars and Oilers: Don't know, don't care.

Also, Engelland and Smid were the likely candidate for a large minute bump with Russell out of the lineup. Kinda important. There's Wideman as well but we were winning when that happened.

302 games spread over four seasons and three teams is a big sample size.

Ramo and Hiller also started most or all of the games Russell was playing in. What's your point?

Engelland and Smid, two guys who I assume have better advanced stats than Russell, tried to fill in for him and the team suffered. Huh?

 

[Machinehead]

****ing corsi graph's are the moost stupid thing a fan can follow.

It's not really a matter of will or won't read them.

It's generally a matter of can or can't read them.

 

[Dertell]

You're right, 301 games spread over four seasons and three teams doesn't say much.

And how many of those he missed? Something like 45? That's an average 15 per teams. And the win% itself isn't that different for two of them. So, yeah, it's doesn't say much.

Ramo and Hiller also started most or all of the games Russell was playing in. What's your point?

Ramo didn't when Russell wasn't playing in. That's the point. And that year it was a 3% difference.

Engelland and Smid, two guys who I assume have better advanced stats than Russell, tried to fill in for him and the team suffered. Am I reading this correctly?

No.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

It's not really a matter of will or won't read them.

It's generally a matter of can or can't read them.

That's not true.

I can understand advanced stats, but I use them as a minor tool to evaluate a player, not as the main basis on which I evaluate them. There are many things that go into evaluating a player. Play style, shooting, passing, defense, hitting, IQ, stats, eye test, advanced stats, etc.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Chychrun, Crouse

Chychrun was a draft pick.

 

[joestevens29]

As an Oiler fan I see this as a solid pickup for the Flames.

They really gave up nothing at a chance to improve their team.

 

[Del Preston]

And how many of those he missed? Something like 45? That's an average 15 per teams. And the win% itself isn't that different for two of them. So, yeah, it's doesn't say much.

His team's points percentage each season is better when he plays. Kinda matters.

Ramo didn't when Russell wasn't playing in. That's the point. And that year it was a 3% difference.

So five games out of the 46 game sample is enough to ignore the stat? Hiller was 2-3-0 in those games. Ramo 2-0-0 and Ortio 0-2-1.

No.

You just implied the reason for those losses were because Engelland and Smid got more minutes.

Why is it so hard to admit his teams have done better when he's in the lineup?

 

[SniperHF]

Chychrun was a draft pick.

That fell in the draft despite the Coyotes having him much higher ranked. Coyotes made a trade specifically to get the pick to draft Chychrun. They didn't trade for the pick a week earlier and had to think about who to take later. If Chychrun wasn't there to be drafted the Wings make that pick.

 

[Machinehead]

That's not true.

I can understand advanced stats, but I use them as a minor tool to evaluate a player, not as the main basis on which I evaluate them. There are many things that go into evaluating a player. Play style, shooting, passing, defense, hitting, IQ, stats, eye test, advanced stats, etc.

That's not true for you. You're a good poster; pretty bright and more importantly, not rude.

Most people don't ask you to explain anything or try to debate you. They see something they don't like and immediately resort to "charts r stoopid u dnt watch hockey."

Sad thing is, there's plenty of discourse to be had about Kris Russell. He's a very interesting player. But after six years you run out of patience with the "spreadsheet" jokes.

 

[MMC]

Flames projected defense:

Giordano-Hamilton
Brodie-Engelland
Bartkowski-Stone

WTF.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Explanation

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=127271319&postcount=147

Labels

Lidstrom was not buried...

 

[Volica]

Flames projected defense:

Giordano-Hamilton
Brodie-Engelland
Bartkowski-Stone

WTF.

Brodie and Engelland were fairly solid together, I think this is a way to ease Stone into the lineup. If you're paired with Brodie, you're going to get some absolutely horrendous match-ups and zone time. Let Stone start his career with Calgary playing in a better match-up role and some light minutes.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Brodie and Engelland were fairly solid together, I think this is a way to ease Stone into the lineup. If you're paired with Brodie, you're going to get some absolutely horrendous match-ups and zone time. Let Stone start his career with Calgary playing in a better match-up role and some light minutes.

Yep. Doubt Stone has had a chance to practice with the club or anything yet. Lets him ease into things.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Kris Russell will always have terrible advanced stats because of the style of defender he is. He's not big enough to play the aggressive box out, and not fast or skilled enough to try for takeaways consistently. He plays prevent defence where he gives up the blue line, basically invites the forward to try and shoot through him and either blocks it or deflects it into the netting. That's his method of turning the puck over for better or worse.

Whether or not this is a sustainable method of defending is another story, but Hartley wasn't the only coach who employed it and there's a reason Tortorella coached teams are usually high on the PDO ranks. Kris Russell just happens to be better than most at it. He was good in Calgary for the most part and was a major reason they made the playoffs in 14-15 after Giordano went down.

 

[Machinehead]

Lidstrom was not buried...

No, but it's just a metaphor to indicate that you're having an absolutely magical season if you land there.

Exactly one defenseman in the entirety of the NHL is in that box right now.

One million tacos to anyone who can figure out who it is (I've mentioned him in this thread)

 

[MMC]

No, but it's just a metaphor to indicate that you're having an absolutely magical season if you land there.

Exactly one defenseman in the entirety of the NHL is in that box right now.

One million tacos to anyone who can figure out who it is (I've mentioned him in this thread)

I figured it out but I cheated. No idea how that is.

 

[Lunatik]

Flames projected defense:

Giordano-Hamilton
Brodie-Engelland
Bartkowski-Stone

WTF.

Why would a team throw a guy with one practice/gameday skate under his belt into the top 4? It makes perfect sense to play him in a lesser role this quickly.

 

[muddywaters]

Kris Russell will always have terrible advanced stats because of the style of defender he is. He's not big enough to play the aggressive box out, and not fast or skilled enough to try for takeaways consistently. He plays prevent defence where he gives up the blue line, basically invites the forward to try and shoot through him and either blocks it or deflects it into the netting. That's his method of turning the puck over for better or worse.

Whether or not this is a sustainable method of defending is another story, but Hartley wasn't the only coach who employed it and there's a reason Tortorella coached teams are usually high on the PDO ranks. Kris Russell just happens to be better than most at it. He was good in Calgary for the most part and was a major reason they made the playoffs in 14-15 after Giordano went down.

Not having Russell has affected this team more than people think IMO ... I wonder if Treliving had an intent to sign him but was held up by the Gaudreau contract and ended up missing the boat ??? Russell seemed to have a positive effect with the Flames and now probably is bringing the same thing to Edmonton ... too bad for my Flames ...

 

[VoluntaryDom]

That's not true for you. You're a good poster; pretty bright and more importantly, not rude.

Most people don't ask you to explain anything or try to debate you. They see something they don't like and immediately resort to "charts r stoopid u dnt watch hockey."

Sad thing is, there's plenty of discourse to be had about Kris Russell. He's a very interesting player. But after six years you run out of patience with the "spreadsheet" jokes.

Thanks man. It means a lot.

As for my opinion on Russell, he is a fine 2nd pair defenseman. He is a good puck mover, with a decent shot, a very good penalty killer, and an elite shot blocker. He's by no means perfect though. The advanced stats paint him in a very different light, almost as if he purposely allows shot attempts so he can block them. He is ideally a #4 on a contender, a #3 on an average team.

 

[hbk]

Chychrun was a draft pick.

Arizona traded up to take Chychrun. They used cap space to move up in draft.