Proposal: Ceci to Leafs

[Hale The Villain]

lol it's really nothing like that, but if that makes you happy then that's cool. Chabot does have the edge here, obviously. But it's not Ceci vs. Finn level

From the Ceci vs Finn thread:

08-25-2013 | 11:33 AM
HarrisonFord
I'm taking Finn here. I see similar upside offensively, but Finn is better defensively, and has leadership skills. I also really like that Finn is a year younger than Ceci.

Say what?

 

[God Says No]

From the Ceci vs Finn thread:



Say what?

LOL, that right there is what I'm talking about.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Anybody who actually watched London knows that Marner was the best player on that line. The difference between Marner and Kadri is actually that big though

I watched London almost 10 times last season. In the games I watched Dvorak was the best player on that line. Stats back up that assertion:

Dvorak: 59GP-52G-69A-121P (2.05 PPG, 0.88 GPG)
Marner: 57GP-39G-77A-116P (2.03 PPG, 0.68 GPG)

Dvorak, the better two-way player, had a higher point per game and far more goals per game. He played the more important position at center (and was the best face-off man in the leaggue). He out-scored, out-produced and out-paced Marner over the course of the regular season. Marner was better in the playoffs, but Dvorak was the better player of the two over a bigger sample size. Not that he's necessarily the better prospect, but he was the better player this season.

 

[HarrisonFord]

From the Ceci vs Finn thread:



Say what?

That was 3 years ago at that time, it was close. Clearly Ceci developed better since then than Finn did. Finn looked great in the OHL, but once he stepped onto the AHL roster his footspeed got exposed. At the time of the poll, I had only seen Finn play in the OHL, and he looked great there

 

[Pyrophorus]

I watched London almost 10 times last season. In the games I watched Dvorak was the best player on that line. Stats back up that assertion:

Dvorak: 59GP-52G-69A-121P (2.05 PPG, 0.88 GPG)
Marner: 57GP-39G-77A-116P (2.03 PPG, 0.68 GPG)

Dvorak, the better two-way player, had a higher point per game and far more goals per game. He played the more important position at center (and was the best face-off man in the leaggue). He out-scored, out-produced and out-paced Marner over the course of the regular season. Marner was better in the playoffs, but Dvorak was the better player of the two over a bigger sample size. Not that he's necessarily the better prospect, but he was the better player this season.

Dvo get those goals, if he didn't have someone feeding him?

When the games really mattered, he stepped up.

 

[HarrisonFord]

I watched London almost 10 times last season. In the games I watched Dvorak was the best player on that line. Stats back up that assertion:

Dvorak: 59GP-52G-69A-121P (2.05 PPG, 0.88 GPG)
Marner: 57GP-39G-77A-116P (2.03 PPG, 0.68 GPG)

Dvorak, the better two-way player, had a higher point per game and far more goals per game. He played the more important position at center (and was the best face-off man in the leaggue). He out-scored, out-produced and out-paced Marner over the course of the regular season. Marner was better in the playoffs, but Dvorak was the better player of the two over a bigger sample size. Not that he's necessarily the better prospect, but he was the better player this season.

Do you think that Dvorak is going to be the better player out of the two? Connor Brown outscored McDavid in 2013-2014 on the same team:

Brown: 68gp-45g-83a-128pts (1.88 PPG, 0.66 GPG)
McDavid: 56gp-28g-71a-99pts (1.77 PPG, 0.50 GPG)

Weird. Does that apply here too?

 

[garyturner3]

I watched London almost 10 times last season. In the games I watched Dvorak was the best player on that line. Stats back up that assertion:

Dvorak: 59GP-52G-69A-121P (2.05 PPG, 0.88 GPG)
Marner: 57GP-39G-77A-116P (2.03 PPG, 0.68 GPG)

Dvorak, the better two-way player, had a higher point per game and far more goals per game. He played the more important position at center (and was the best face-off man in the leaggue). He out-scored, out-produced and out-paced Marner over the course of the regular season. Marner was better in the playoffs, but Dvorak was the better player of the two over a bigger sample size. Not that he's necessarily the better prospect, but he was the better player this season.

I think you're in the minority with this opinion. Every game I've watched and every analyst that talks about London is always talking about how Marner is the main driving force of that line on a nightly basis. The guy just makes so much happen out there and he's involved in everything. Even if their numbers are similar it's always been Marner standing out when I've watched. The fact Marner won OHL and CHL MVP despite putting up less goals and playing a less important position should tell you who had the better year.

 

[trentmccleary]

That was 3 years ago at that time, it was close. Clearly Ceci developed better since then than Finn did. Finn looked great in the OHL, but once he stepped onto the AHL roster his footspeed got exposed. At the time of the poll, I had only seen Finn play in the OHL, and he looked great there

3 years ago was draft plus 1. They still would have been ranked heavily based on draft position, which is essentially what you guys are doing here with Mathews, Marner and Nylander. Nothing wrong with that, unless you show bias by saying that every Tom, Dick and Harry that your team drafted in later rounds is as good or better than every other teams 1st rounder.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Dvo get those goals, if he didn't have someone feeding him?

When the games really mattered, he stepped up.

Of course he had someone feeding him. Goals frequently have assists. I mentioned Dvorak's superior goal scoring numbers because goals are worth more than assists. With 2 assists often being awarded for a single goal, don't you think a guy who scores more goals than another guy, while also having more points, was the better offensive player?

Marner did step up in a big way in the playoffs. So did Tkachuk. If an amazing playoff run makes Marner the next Patrick Kane, Tkachuk must be the next Jamie Benn. Or perhaps a small sample size of domination should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when compared to a much larger sample size of lesser production.

Do you think that Dvorak is going to be the better player out of the two? Connor Brown outscored McDavid in 2013-2014 on the same team:

Brown: 68gp-45g-83a-128pts (1.88 PPG, 0.66 GPG)
McDavid: 56gp-28g-71a-99pts (1.77 PPG, 0.50 GPG)

Weird. Does that apply here too?

Like I said in the same post, I don't think Dvorak is a better prospect than Marner. Having said this, I don't think the difference between the two is monumental. Dvorak probably ends up a 50-60 point guy with a great two-way game. Marner probably ends up a 60-70 point guy with little impact beyond offense. Not exactly a huge gap between those two guys. The difference between Dvorak and Marner only seems huge if you think Marner is a future PPG superstar, which I do not.

In regards to your Brown and McDavid example, my point remains the same (even if your comparison is ripe with hyperbole). I don't think Brown is a better prospect than McDavid, but he was the better player in 2014. And it's worth mentioning that Marner is not comparable to McDavid in any way, shape or form.

 

[Atomos2]

Do you think that Dvorak is going to be the better player out of the two? Connor Brown outscored McDavid in 2013-2014 on the same team:

Brown: 68gp-45g-83a-128pts (1.88 PPG, 0.66 GPG)
McDavid: 56gp-28g-71a-99pts (1.77 PPG, 0.50 GPG)

Weird. Does that apply here too?

Well played.

 

[trentmccleary]

Do you think that Dvorak is going to be the better player out of the two? Connor Brown outscored McDavid in 2013-2014 on the same team:

Brown: 68gp-45g-83a-128pts (1.88 PPG, 0.66 GPG)
McDavid: 56gp-28g-71a-99pts (1.77 PPG, 0.50 GPG)

Weird. Does that apply here too?

19/20yo vs. 16/17yo? ... eye roll

And Tony Twist probably had his two goal game when McDavid was 2yo. Twist > McDavid

 

[Hale The Villain]

I think you're in the minority with this opinion. Every game I've watched and every analyst that talks about London is always talking about how Marner is the main driving force of that line on a nightly basis. The guy just makes so much happen out there and he's involved in everything. Even if their numbers are similar it's always been Marner standing out when I've watched. The fact Marner won OHL and CHL MVP despite putting up less goals and playing a less important position should tell you who had the better year.

I'm not shocked that I'm in the minority with that opinion, given that the majority is largely made up of Leafs fans and media personalities catering to Leafs Nation with constant attention and hype for TML prospects.

Marner should stand out more than Dvorak, he's the more talented player of the two, and talent always stands out, especially at the junior level. Dvorak is more subtle - producing because of his exceptional hockey sense and ability to be in the right place at the right time, while Marner produces largely as a result of his silky-smooth hands, great vision and playmaking ability. Marner is also a very flashy player, which again bodes well for him in regards to being noticed on the ice.

 

[Atomos2]

19/20yo vs. 16/17yo? ... eye roll

And Tony Twist probably had his two goal game when McDavid was 2yo. Twist > McDavid

You do realize Dvorak is older than Marner too right?

 

[TheDoldrums]

I watched London almost 10 times last season. In the games I watched Dvorak was the best player on that line. Stats back up that assertion:

Dvorak: 59GP-52G-69A-121P (2.05 PPG, 0.88 GPG)
Marner: 57GP-39G-77A-116P (2.03 PPG, 0.68 GPG)

Dvorak, the better two-way player, had a higher point per game and far more goals per game. He played the more important position at center (and was the best face-off man in the leaggue). He out-scored, out-produced and out-paced Marner over the course of the regular season. Marner was better in the playoffs, but Dvorak was the better player of the two over a bigger sample size. Not that he's necessarily the better prospect, but he was the better player this season.

Wouldn't the biggest sample size include both the regular season AND the playoffs? Marner scored 11 more points in the playoffs and Memorial Cup, that's a huge difference. He was on a completely different level from Dvorak. In the regular season, they were essentially equal. Dvorak only scored 5 more points with 2 more games played. If you look at everything they did in a London uniform this year, Marner was more productive.

 

[God Says No]

That was 3 years ago at that time, it was close. Clearly Ceci developed better since then than Finn did. Finn looked great in the OHL, but once he stepped onto the AHL roster his footspeed got exposed. At the time of the poll, I had only seen Finn play in the OHL, and he looked great there

Not sure what your point is. The argument was that Ceci vs. Finn is eerily familiar to Chabot vs Dermott (obviously biased) comparisons by leaf fans at the time of the comparison.

3 years ago was draft plus 1. They still would have been ranked heavily based on draft position, which is essentially what you guys are doing here with Mathews, Marner and Nylander. Nothing wrong with that, unless you show bias by saying that every Tom, Dick and Harry that your team drafted in later rounds is as good or better than every other teams 1st rounder.

Which is what is happening here again.

Anyhoo, I wouldn't do the original deal. Not enough coming back from the leafs.

 

[c3z4r]

You do realize Dvorak is older than Marner too right?

I think they were pretty even last year, but 1 year difference between Dvorak (19 years old) and Marner (18 years old) vs. 3 years difference between Brown (19 years old) and McDavid (16 years old) makes for quite a big difference.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

This is very brutal for Ottawa, They need just as much D help here then the Leafs and trade away one of their better younger D men why.

 

[howkie]

Leafs better pay up, D-men cost alot, not a a bunch of middle tier prospects that every team has 2 or 3 of...

 

[Atomos2]

I think they were pretty even last year, but 1 year difference between Dvorak (19 years old) and Marner (18 years old) vs. 3 years difference between Brown (19 years old) and McDavid (16 years old) makes for quite a big difference.

McDavid is McDavid, obviously so there is a difference.

But Dvorak is a 19 year old in junior, meaning this is his final year before he is labelled an overager. So he is facing players that are mostly one, two, three years younger than him. It should be expected that he dominant against players younger than him. The fact that Marner was as good as him as an 18 year old playing against players that are mostly within his age range makes a pretty big and significant difference.

 

[Micklebot]

You do realize Dvorak is older than Marner too right?

Jesus... do you seriously need it spelled out?

Brown was 3 years older than McDavid in the comparison that Harrison made, while Dvorak was 1 year older than Marner.

Edit: I see this had already been addressed, but now you've doubled down. Sorry, Harrison's comparison was ludicrous. Hale suggesting that he felt Dvorak was better this year (but not the better prospect) was not ridiculous.

The thread is going so far off topic, I don't even know what I'm doing here anymore... have fun glorifying your prospects that aren't even relevant to the trade proposal...

 

[BondraTime]

McDavid is McDavid, obviously so there is a difference.

But Dvorak is a 19 year old in junior, meaning this is his final year before he is labelled an overager. So he is facing players that are mostly one, two, three years younger than him. It should be expected that he dominant against players younger than him. The fact that Marner was as good as him as an 18 year old playing against players that are mostly within his age range makes a pretty big and significant difference.

Wait, what? You make it seem like the age is a huge difference. Instead of 1-2-3 years younger, Marner would face 1-2 years younger using that formula. But somehow they are mostly his age? There are about 25-30 (16) year olds in a league per season.

The CHL is dominated by 19 year olds. That is the age of the largest majority of players in the CHL.

17-18-19 year old's basically contribute 90% of the league.

No doubt you should be a better player as a pro prospect who is 19, but the way you are describing it to suit Marner is foolish.

Marner is clearly the better prospect of the two, you don't need to spin these type of arguments. His play speaks for itself. It just so happens he did that with another line-mate who is a special prospect.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Of course he had someone feeding him. Goals frequently have assists. I mentioned Dvorak's superior goal scoring numbers because goals are worth more than assists. With 2 assists often being awarded for a single goal, don't you think a guy who scores more goals than another guy, while also having more points, was the better offensive player?

Marner did step up in a big way in the playoffs. So did Tkachuk. If an amazing playoff run makes Marner the next Patrick Kane, Tkachuk must be the next Jamie Benn. Or perhaps a small sample size of domination should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when compared to a much larger sample size of lesser production.



Like I said in the same post, I don't think Dvorak is a better prospect than Marner. Having said this, I don't think the difference between the two is monumental. Dvorak probably ends up a 50-60 point guy with a great two-way game. Marner probably ends up a 60-70 point guy with little impact beyond offense. Not exactly a huge gap between those two guys. The difference between Dvorak and Marner only seems huge if you think Marner is a future PPG superstar, which I do not.

In regards to your Brown and McDavid example, my point remains the same (even if your comparison is ripe with hyperbole). I don't think Brown is a better prospect than McDavid, but he was the better player in 2014. And it's worth mentioning that Marner is not comparable to McDavid in any way, shape or form.

Glad you admitted you know nothing about Marner or his game. Sure you watched those 10 games closely?

 

[tony d]

Got to think Ottawa's going to keep Ceci especially with that proposal factored in.

 

[Atomos2]

Wait, what? You make it seem like the age is a huge difference. Instead of 1-2-3 years younger, Marner would face 1-2 years younger using that formula. But somehow they are mostly his age? There are about 25-30 (16) year olds in a league per season.

The CHL is dominated by 19 year olds. That is the age of the largest majority of players in the CHL.

17-18-19 year old's basically contribute 90% of the league.

No doubt you should be a better player as a pro prospect who is 19, but the way you are describing it to suit Marner is foolish.

Marner is clearly the better prospect of the two, you don't need to spin these type of arguments. His play speaks for itself. It just so happens he did that with another line-mate who is a special prospect.

Umm...I'm just trying to simplify it bud. Marner was dominating the OHL as a 17 year old and ended up sweeping the MVP awards at 18. And yes the age difference is significant.Why do you think Team Canada prefer 19 year old over 18 year olds? There's growth in maturity both mentally and physically. So yeah, age plays a huge role especially at a young age. Please tell me your argument isn't going to be that there isn't a significant difference between a 18 year old and a 19 year old because that would be just worthy.

If there wasn't why would Leaf fans be expecting Marner to make the NHL this year. If nothing changes for him from 18 yrs of age to 19 yrs then it should be a foregone conclusion that he is basically the same player he was the year before.

 

[BondraTime]

Umm...I'm just trying to simplify it bud. Marner was dominating the OHL as a 17 year old and ended up sweeping the MVP awards at 18. And yes the age difference is significant.Why do you think Team Canada prefer 19 year old over 18 year olds? There's growth in maturity both mentally and physically. So yeah, age plays a huge role especially at a young age.

Whatever works, guy