Confirmed with Link: CDH and Saarela to CHI for Forsling and Anton Forsberg

[Svechhammer]

Yet, they didn't.

I find it hard to believe that the FO turned down a better package just to do Chicago a favor. It's more likely that de Haan had very slight negative value (if you think Forsberg and Forsling, in particular, are valueless) in the sense that there probably weren't many teams that would take on $4.55 mil without sending a decent amount of cap back.

Like the Skinner trade, you have to assume that the team traded the player for market value. de Haan's valuation should be treated as an internal benchmark, not an external one. Are the Canes better off keeping him, not trading him for that type of return? Let's wait a few weeks and then judge this trade in the broader context.

Now what fun is that if we could instead just freak out and burn down the walls now?

 

[Chrispy]

Now what fun is that if we could instead just freak out and burn down the walls now?

Calvin de Haan is Calvin de Haan, but cap space could be anything.

Cap space could even be a Calvin de Haan!

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

tinfoil hat explanation:
- Acquire TML protected 1st round pick
- clear cap
- offer sheet and sign Toronto's best player (Marner) causing them to be a lottery pick team the next 2 years
- profit

 

[Lempo]

Now what fun is that if we could instead just freak out and burn down the walls now?

Have we come to this that we burn down our own village?

 

[Drivebytrucker]

We never saw any indication he was offered elsewhere, only that Chicago called about him and that was the final deal.

If that's truly the most value he has around the league, he has significantly more value to this team and it's poor asset management to give him up for very little.

Your explanation requires me to believe that DonWaddell is too lazy to pick up a phone and call other GMs and has no idea what the appropriate value for his players are.

Neither of those I believe

 

[Ippenator]

Dude, chill.

Context.

Pls refer to my earlier posts. I don’t there there’s a chance in hell Duchene signs with CAR, nor can they afford both he and Aho. Just pointing out that Dundon doesnt care if a player is a prick or not as long as they perform on the ice.

But I’m pretty sure that Brindy does care for what kind of attitude his players have. And I’m pretty sure that he, DW and Dundon have had at least some kind of discussions of what kind of players are needed in the future, and what kind of players are more expandable. At least smart management and coaching do have these kind of discussions. And at least so far I want to believe that the present Canes management and coaching are smart.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Your explanation requires me to believe that DonWaddell is too lazy to pick up a phone and call other GMs and has no idea what the appropriate value for his players are.

Neither of those I believe

It’s remarkable to me that people really think

1) There was a better offer to be had for CDH + Saarela, and we didn’t take it.

2) That if #1 can’t be true, it could still also be true that we know the full extent of CDH’s injury situation.

Think this all the way through, folks. If this was just a cap dump, then Waddell wasn’t up against any kind of wall to pull the trigger on such a **** return. He might not be a supergenius, but he’s also not a blithering idiot who trades a good player on the first phone call.

Something like this has necessarily been in the works for a while, given the financial and medical factors involved. Given that it couldn’t have been a snap decision, DW must have had time to shop this around. Given that, we can presume there were no other takers. And given that, there must have been a reason there were no other takers, leaving CDH + Saarela with bargain-basement levels of value. CDH’s cap hit alone does not justify bargain-basement value. Clearly there is a more significant negative hanging over him, and we know this player is coming off multiple shoulder surgeries. Everything points to the same explanation here.

 

[Tryamw]

Another option would be if CDH asked for a trade and we wanted to keep contracts back to a minimum. Weren't we near the contact cap?

 

[Chrispy]

It’s remarkable to me that people really think

1) There was a better offer to be had for CDH + Saarela, and we didn’t take it.

2) That if #1 can’t be true, it could still also be true that we know the full extent of CDH’s injury situation.

Think this all the way through, folks. If this was just a cap dump, then Waddell wasn’t up against any kind of wall to pull the trigger on such a **** return. He might not be a supergenius, but he’s also not a blithering idiot who trades a good player on the first phone call.

Something like this has necessarily been in the works for a while, given the financial and medical factors involved. Given that it couldn’t have been a snap decision, DW must have had time to shop this around. Given that, we can presume there were no other takers. And given that, there must have been a reason there were no other takers, leaving CDH + Saarela with bargain-basement levels of value. CDH’s cap hit alone does not justify bargain-basement value. Clearly there is a more significant negative hanging over him, and we know this player is coming off multiple shoulder surgeries. Everything points to the same explanation here.

Which still doesn't explain why de Haan has to go at all. If the value is that low, the value play is to hang onto him and let the shoulder rehab rather than pay to get rid of him. Then you move him once he's back on the ice and shown to be healthy if the D looked good in his absence.

Will it come back that there's a major addition coming from a cap-strapped team or UFA? I hope so, but as I said earlier we waited for over a year for the Borg to leverage the top 4 D surplus into a forward. Now it's been leveraged into cap/budget space, and we're still waiting.

 

[My Special Purpose]

It’s remarkable to me that people really think

1) There was a better offer to be had for CDH + Saarela, and we didn’t take it.

Again, the point of this deal was to take no salary back, so that we could afford to take on Marleau and get a first-rounder.

The team was criticized for not getting a first-rounder out of Skinner because they were backed into a corner. This time, they knew they needed to dump a d-man, and they set about doing it with the goal of ending up with a first-rounder out of the deal. Offers for Faulk weren't doing it. de Haan by himself wasn't going to bring a first, so we had to get creative. So we dumped de Haan for a few borderline prospects and took on Marleau's buyout. Presto: first-rounder.

Another option would be if CDH asked for a trade and we wanted to keep contracts back to a minimum. Weren't we near the contact cap?

Not even remotely. We could sign all our RFAs (note: we won't) and we'd be at 39 contracts.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Which still doesn't explain why de Haan has to go at all. If the value is that low, the value play is to hang onto him and let the shoulder rehab rather than pay to get rid of him. Then you move him once he's back on the ice and shown to be healthy if the D looked good in his absence.

Y'know, you post this line of thinking a lot. And you *never* take the other side into consideration. It's always, "why not wait until his value is higher at some point in the future." But you *never* consider what if this is as high as his value ever gets, and it goes down from here. Which happens in the NHL A lot.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but what if de Haan comes back in November and gets hurt again. Another shoulder surgery. Out for the season. It's very likely we're now looking at $13.65 million over three years for a guy who may never play for us again. There is *serious* risk to keeping de Haan. Eliminating that risk has value, in and of itself.

 

[Hinterland]

So friggin Forsling is the 2nd LD going forward? This is rough. It's also gonna hurt the Canes chances of landing more quality FA's whitout clauses because they could get treated the same way.

I don't see a single reason why the Canes would wanna do this deal. If they wanted cap space then just continue to let Toronto have fun with Paddy M.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

I wonder if his current contract is insured what with his injury history. I think someone else already mentioned this as a possible motivating factor.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

So friggin Forsling is the 2nd LD going forward? This is rough. It's also gonna hurt the Canes chances of landing more quality FA's whitout clauses because they could get treated the same way.

I don't see a single reason why the Canes would wanna do this deal. If they wanted cap space then just continue to let Toronto have fun with Paddy M.

Pesce is the 2LD

 

[NotOpie]

I have said this before, but I'm much higher on Pulju than the rest of the league and I don't see any reason to send him down. I think getting out of Edmonton with a fresh start under RBA he would replace hole Ferland leaves in top 6 and be a steal as soon as upcoming season.

Couple of things....first, on no Rod Brind'Amour team is a player going to be gifted a Top 9 role; he'll have to earn it. Assuming JWilly comes back, there's no room in the Top 6 for Pool Party. At best he's going to be fighting with McGinn, Foegele, and Necas for a 3rd line spot. This is a case where he's not good enough to force his way into the Top 6 and doesn't play with enough heart to play on our 3rd line.

As far as the CDH/Saarela trade, I'm in the minority in thinking the return, while not great, wasn't a complete steaming pile of shit either. Forsberg has the potential to be a solid #2. Forsling is a guy who has confidence issues, but who has put NHL minutes in. I'm thinking he's a #7 placeholder at the moment.

A bunch of us have said that we should wait until "the other shoe drops". I believe that is the gist of this move....and the Marleau one as well. There's just too much sense to the thought of acquiring assets and clearing some additional cap space to make a run at somebody, most likely in trade.

 

[zman77]

There's a lot more to the CDH Trade.

 

[Chrispy]

Y'know, you post this line of thinking a lot. And you *never* take the other side into consideration. It's always, "why not wait until his value is higher at some point in the future." But you *never* consider what if this is as high as his value ever gets, and it goes down from here. Which happens in the NHL A lot.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but what if de Haan comes back in November and gets hurt again. Another shoulder surgery. Out for the season. It's very likely we're now looking at $13.65 million over three years for a guy who may never play for us again. There is *serious* risk to keeping de Haan. Eliminating that risk has value, in and of itself.

Yes, there's risk inherent with sports and injury.

But you keep talking about not holding onto players with any emotional investment and thinking of them effectively as acquisitions to maximize. This doesn't maximize de Haan's value, and it didn't maximize the value of the depth on the blue line that we've been trying to leverage for over a year.

What if this is the highest de Haan's value is? Then he drops down to a $1.5M buyout next year, a little more than Darling. That's assuming he's unable to return to play effectively but able to return to play period.

I guess we will see if de Haan will play again. I think it's likely he does and he's effective. Because if his shoulder were so bad that a return is unlikely, I don't think Chicago would have even done this move.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I understand the money behind it BUT
I would much rather have de Haan as the 2LD than Faulk as the 2RD.
Yes CDH would have been hurt for a while this season but, we have Fleury / Bean to cover down.
This deal hurts our chances of signing UFAs

The MGMT team must really see something in the two we got back.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yes, there's risk inherent with sports and injury.

But you keep talking about not holding onto players with any emotional investment and thinking of them effectively as acquisitions to maximize. This doesn't maximize de Haan's value, and it didn't maximize the value of the depth on the blue line that we've been trying to leverage for over a year.

What if this is the highest de Haan's value is? Then he drops down to a $1.5M buyout next year, a little more than Darling. That's assuming he's unable to return to play effectively.

I guess we will see if de Haan will play again. I think it's likely he does and he's effective. Because if his shoulder were so bad that a return is unlikely, I don't think Chicago would have even done this move.

The question is, what if he returns and plays 20 great games and then blows that shoulder back out?

This isn’t a Skinner concussion situation. A defenseman isn’t going to just avoid using his shoulders. Shoulder injuries specifically tend to recur, and an NHL defenseman has to abuse his shoulders if he’s going to be any good to his team.

So you hold him till he comes back close to the New Year, and you showcase him for a month or two ahead of the TDL, and he gets re-injured. Then what?

That’s most likely what the Canes are trying to avoid here, and the risk the Hawks are taking on. It’s the injury, not the cap hit, which more logically gives CDL close to zero value. And you can infer something about the post-surgery condition of his shoulder by the fact that Forsberg/Forsling was the best offer on the table.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Yes, there's risk inherent with sports and injury.

Oh come on. You're being disingenuous now, on top of everything else. So the risk with de Haan is only the standard "risk inherent with sports and injury?" There's no additional risk for a guy who's completely out of healthy shoulders and *best case* has him not ready for the start of training camp after coming off this *third* major shoulder surgery?

But you keep talking about not holding onto players with any emotional investment and thinking of them effectively as acquisitions to maximize. This doesn't maximize de Haan's value, and it didn't maximize the value of the depth on the blue line that we've been trying to leverage for over a year.

We *did* maximize de Haan's value because we were able to make another move that we would not have been able to make unless we found somebody to take de Haan. We got more out of an injured de Haan than we did for a 40-goal scoring winger.

I guess we will see if de Haan will play again. I think it's likely he does and he's effective. Because if his shoulder were so bad that a return is unlikely, I don't think Chicago would have even done this move.

The risk is manageable from Chicago's side because they didn't give up anything.

 

[My Special Purpose]

I would much rather have de Haan as the 2LD than Faulk as the 2RD.

I think we all feel this way, but Faulk has now been offered around at *two* drafts and we haven't received an offer we liked. So evidently, trading Faulk just isn't in the cards.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Not everyone.

de Haan for effectively nothing > Faulk for a Braun-like return

 

[DougieSmash]

Yeah, i'll take Faulk over CDH every day of the week.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Again, the point of this deal was to take no salary back, so that we could afford to take on Marleau and get a first-rounder.

The team was criticized for not getting a first-rounder out of Skinner because they were backed into a corner. This time, they knew they needed to dump a d-man, and they set about doing it with the goal of ending up with a first-rounder out of the deal. Offers for Faulk weren't doing it. de Haan by himself wasn't going to bring a first, so we had to get creative. So we dumped de Haan for a few borderline prospects and took on Marleau's buyout. Presto: first-rounder.

I just don’t think this all played out as a result of cap concerns. If he’s playing, CDH is worth his contract. And while it makes sense to deal from our defensive depth, by no means did we “need to dump” a defenseman. We could have cruised right along with what we had... nothing forced Waddell’s hand here.

I think what you’re saying above makes a lot of sense if it begins in the aftermath of his post-surgery report, and Canes management having an “oh ****” moment about his prognosis. Folks looking for the Why behind this deal should seriously consider what happens if this guy becomes the Tuomo Ruutu of defensemen and we’re sitting here for the next 3 years watching him fall apart while also taking a $4.5M payday. That’s where it changes from having strength to deal from our depth, to needing to dump the guy any way we can.

 

[FreshSeabass]

Faulk == CDH
Would prefer CDH much more solid defensively. I still think Faulk gets traded before the offseason is over.