OT: Career advice

[SnowblindNYR]

If it is HR that is different, correct

Yeah, I edited what I posted up top. Usually your references are money in the bank because you hand pick them. If you're a current employee at the company and your company doesn't want to lose the employee, the decent thing to do is what was done to me a couple of times and say "sorry I can't give a reference to a current employee". Trashing that person after saying you'll give a reference is extremely unethical in my opinion.

 

[Alluckks]

Yeah, I edited what I posted up top. Usually your references are money in the bank because you hand pick them. If you're a current employee at the company and your company doesn't want to lose the employee, the decent thing to do is what was done to me a couple of times and say "sorry I can't give a reference to a current employee". Trashing that person after saying you'll give a reference is extremely unethical in my opinion.

It is unethical, often times not necessarily illegal, and even if what they did rose to the level of a suit it is very hard to prove (and costly)

Yes, references are your easy money

However, they often ask for who your supervisor was in the contact form (not the references portion)
- Unless you know they are going to say good things, just mark to not reach out
- However, the hiring firm can always reach out to HR regardless to ensure that you in fact did work there and do what you claimed (what you mentioned previously)

 

[darko]

Do you live in the US? I thought you were Australian. I believe that the law in the US is that HR isn't allowed to comment on your performance just how long you worked there and in what capacity. Maybe I'm wrong. References on the other hand are allowed to do so and do comment on your performance. If my understanding of the situation is true then if you're HR you just say it's company policy and in accordance with the law to not comment on performance. If you're a possible reference then make it clear that you wouldn't want to be the person's reference before you're asked about his/her performance.

If I'm wrong or you're asking a more philosophical question there has to be a way to say something diplomatically and leaving the situation ambiguous enough so that you don't lie AND don't throw the other person under the bus. I already gave a common example of a situation where you as a candidate are put in a similar position. When asked what did you not like about working in your previous company you MUST be diplomatic. No one wants to hire someone that will bad mouth their company later on. If you think being diplomatic will be pretty transparent well it's still better than trashing that person. I'd rather the other company have to piece together things about me and hypothesize about what they think MIGHT be wrong with me than my former boss telling them I'm a useless lazy bastard. It's still less of a negative.

You have to understand also "useless" and "lazy" are traits that are in the eye of the beholder and open to interpretation. It may well be possible that you put a creative person in the role of accountant or an analytical person in the role of copywriter at an ad agency and what looks like "useless" and "lazy" is just bad fit. There needs to be some empathy in this situation. The coming late often IS inexcusable, I will give you that.

I live in Australia.

Sometimes you don't get a choice whether you are a reference or not. Well kinda. I switched jobs 5 months ago and got another 7 months of probation/training phase. I got assigned to a mentor. If I decide to leave that guy becomes my default reference and he will get a phone call about me. Sure he could choose to say nothing but that's as bad as burying the person. New employees always ask about your previous employer and try to get as much info as they can.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

It is unethical, often times not necessarily illegal, and even if what they did rose to the level of a suit it is very hard to prove (and costly)

Yes, references are your easy money

However, they often ask for who your supervisor was in the contact form (not the references portion)
- Unless you know they are going to say good things, just mark to not reach out
- However, the hiring firm can always reach out to HR regardless to ensure that you in fact did work there and do what you claimed (what you mentioned previously)

I think I agree with everything in this post. All I'm saying is that your references if they're any kind of decent human being should decline being your references if you still work there and they want to keep you or if you were a legit bad employee and they don't want to lie. Trashing you after saying they'll be your reference is extremely unethical, even if it's not illegal.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I live in Australia.

Sometimes you don't get a choice whether you are a reference or not. Well kinda. I switched jobs 5 months ago and got another 7 months of probation/training phase. I got assigned to a mentor. If I decide to leave that guy becomes my default reference and he will get a phone call about me. Sure he could choose to say nothing but that's as bad as burying the person. New employees always ask about your previous employer and try to get as much info as they can.

Well you could find someone else to be your reference. Maybe that's not how it works in Aurstralia but you can find someone else or since you almost always just need 3 references can get a reference from another company you worked at. Maybe it HAS to be your boss and it HAS to be from every company in Australia. In the US there are work arounds.

 

[Alluckks]

I think I agree with everything in this post. All I'm saying is that your references if they're any kind of decent human being should decline being your references if you still work there and they want to keep you or if you were a legit bad employee and they don't want to lie. Trashing you after saying they'll be your reference is extremely unethical, even if it's not illegal.

Oh, yeah. But then it is your own fault to a certain degree, pick better references

 

[darko]

Well you could find someone else to be your reference. Maybe that's not how it works in Aurstralia but you can find someone else or since you almost always just need 3 references can get a reference from another company you worked at. Maybe it HAS to be your boss and it HAS to be from every company in Australia. In the US there are work arounds.

Nah you can get anyone to be your reference but guaranteed they'll want something from your last employer AND from someone in a position of power. "Work colleague" is open for interpretation, might as well write "a mate of mine".

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Oh, yeah. But then it is your own fault to a certain degree, pick better references

That's fair.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Nah you can get anyone to be your reference but guaranteed they'll want something from your last employer AND from someone in a position of power. "Work colleague" is open for interpretation, might as well write "a mate of mine".

When I left my first post-undergrad job to my second one my former boss who I'm friends with now declined to be a reference because I was still at the company. So I got my buddy who I'm really good friends with to do it and pretend he was in a position of power. Is that ethical? Maybe not, but my hands were tied.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I'm trying to remember, maybe I'm even overstating it. I think I said he was a senior analyst and he wasn't. I didn't pretend like he was the CEO or anything.

 

[darko]

When I left my first post-undergrad job to my second one my former boss who I'm friends with now declined to be a reference because I was still at the company. So I got my buddy who I'm really good friends with to do it and pretend he was in a position of power. Is that ethical? Maybe not, but my hands were tied.

I think we've all lied a bit on our CV's.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I think we've all lied a bit on our CV's.

Haha, that was for references not on my CV.

 

[darko]

Haha, that was for references not on my CV.

I suppose I was lucky enough to get into my field only few months after graduating. If not, would probably lie too.

Hey anything to get a leg up. It's a dog eat dog world.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Well if his/her's new employer asks you about them, what do you say? Do you lie?

As someone who has given references for bad employees, I can honestly say that you try to "sell" a 2nd hand car with some problems. You mention the problems but at the same time focus on the nice color, great tires and good experiences. I personally put more emphasis the positives by calling them areas to improve, rather than bad habits

 

[BBKers]

Its a harsh world. I have given hundreds, If not thousands of references throughout the years. You never praise someone that is extremely good a whole lot and you never totally shoot down a real screwup. Such is the code in the corporate world. We tend to learn to read between the lines though and personal contact almost always gives one a better and more insightful picture.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Its a harsh world. I have given hundreds, If not thousands of references throughout the years. You never praise someone that is extremely good a whole lot and you never totally shoot down a real screwup. Such is the code in the corporate world.

One of my favorite lines an old Director I worked with would use was: "you'd be lucky to get him/her to work for you."

Can be read two very different ways

 

[silverfish]

Who's hiring marketing/digital/media analytics people?

I need to gtfo of my current situation.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Who's hiring marketing/digital/media analytics people?

I need to gtfo of my current situation.

I don't know but I will tell you this, job seekers have all the power right now, especially in the state I live in. Salaries are going through the roof with record low unemployment and it is a good time to be a job seeker.

 

[silverfish]

I don't know but I will tell you this, job seekers have all the power right now, especially in the state I live in. Salaries are going through the roof with record low unemployment and it is a good time to be a job seeker.

Well, I'm kind of f***ed. For the industry I'm in, my current job is way too niche. I'm having issues getting interviews because, while I know how to code (kind of), and have a basic understanding of stats (kind of), none of that appears on my professional resume because we don't do that sort of stuff where I am. So when I'm on a phone screening, and they're asking me if I have Tableau or R/Python experience, which is basically a requirement now, I have to say that I'm familiar with the tools, but we don't use them on a daily basis at my current job.

I should probably just start lying

 

[Gardner McKay]

Well, I'm kind of ****ed. For the industry I'm in, my current job is way too niche. I'm having issues getting interviews because, while I know how to code (kind of), and have a basic understanding of stats (kind of), none of that appears on my professional resume because we don't do that sort of stuff where I am. So when I'm on a phone screening, and they're asking me if I have Tableau or R/Python experience, which is basically a requirement now, I have to say that I'm familiar with the tools, but we don't use them on a daily basis at my current job.

I should probably just start lying

If they ask you if you have experience and you do, you say yes?

What do you love, like and not like about your job? Of the things you love and like, could you find alternative employment elsewhere centered around those things? Could you find alternative employment elsewhere doing what you're doing now for a higher pay and with more room for growth?

From what I gleaned in the above post, it seems like you want a career in doing something you have no professional experience doing? That sometimes requires taking a step back. Although, I will say, companies are so desperate they are hiring people into Sr. level roles when person has a year of experience. It is crazy.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Well, I'm kind of ****ed. For the industry I'm in, my current job is way too niche. I'm having issues getting interviews because, while I know how to code (kind of), and have a basic understanding of stats (kind of), none of that appears on my professional resume because we don't do that sort of stuff where I am. So when I'm on a phone screening, and they're asking me if I have Tableau or R/Python experience, which is basically a requirement now, I have to say that I'm familiar with the tools, but we don't use them on a daily basis at my current job.

I should probably just start lying

Yes - I will be real with you...you need to "spin it" as much as possible without outright lying. I did something similar when trying to switch to a real estate finance role...basically learned as much of the skills as I could online / from talking to people then found something tangentially related I could take on in my current role. From there I "rebranded" my resume bullet and interview story to make sure it was closer to what would be done in my next job while still being mostly grounded in what I actually did.

It is definitely harder to get away with embellishing technical skills so I wouldn't recommend completely lying...but if you KNOW your stuff from own time/work then finding ways to squeeze it into your work experience is more doable.

1. How can you bring any of the above into your current role? Stay late and take on something extra...get creative. Ideas:

a. If your role requires presenting data at all it should be possible to bring in Tableau. Throw a few slides together summarizing your team's work or something using Tableau and give to your manager for her next meeting with her boss. I'm sure there are some metrics your team tracks and Tableau can be a really powerful way to visualize them...is there a dashboard everyone looks at? If not, create one.

b. There are a ton of data sources on the web...how can you use Python to incorporate them into what your team currently does? I work in a very non-coding area but am trying to do just that..linking in some more diverse data with what we have historically looked at.

2. Do you have any published work online you can point to? 1-2 new resume bullets at your current job plus a good "other" bullet point indicating work you've done in your spare time could go a long way to rebranding your background.

EDIT - worst case scenario consider a data science bootcamp? I considered going to one before deciding on doing an MBA

 

[silverfish]

If they ask you if you have experience and you do, you say yes?

What do you love, like and not like about your job? Of the things you love and like, could you find alternative employment elsewhere centered around those things? Could you find alternative employment elsewhere doing what you're doing now for a higher pay and with more room for growth?

From what I gleaned in the above post, it seems like you want a career in doing something you have no professional experience doing? That sometimes requires taking a step back. Although, I will say, companies are so desperate they are hiring people into Sr. level roles when person has a year of experience. It is crazy.

Not really. The industry pivoted very recently and is going that way, and my agency just did not follow. I now only do partial what my peers are doing in the same position.

Yes - I will be real with you...you need to "spin it" as much as possible without outright lying. I did something similar when trying to switch to a real estate finance role...basically learned as much of the skills as I could online / from talking to people then found something tangentially related I could take on in my current role. From there I "rebranded" my resume bullet and interview story to make sure it was closer to what would be done in my next job while still being mostly grounded in what I actually did.

It is definitely harder to get away with embellishing technical skills so I wouldn't recommend completely lying...but if you KNOW your stuff from own time/work then finding ways to squeeze it into your work experience is more doable.

1. How can you bring any of the above into your current role? Stay late and take on something extra...get creative. Ideas:

a. If your role requires presenting data at all it should be possible to bring in Tableau. Throw a few slides together summarizing your team's work or something using Tableau and give to your manager for her next meeting with her boss. I'm sure there are some metrics your team tracks and Tableau can be a really powerful way to visualize them...is there a dashboard everyone looks at? If not, create one.

b. There are a ton of data sources on the web...how can you use Python to incorporate them into what your team currently does? I work in a very non-coding area but am trying to do just that..linking in some more diverse data with what we have historically looked at.

2. Do you have any published work online you can point to? 1-2 new resume bullets at your current job plus a good "other" bullet point indicating work you've done in your spare time could go a long way to rebranding your background.

I've exhausted these options. There's no desire here to grow into anything more than what it is. The longer I stay here, the more I fall behind.

But you know me on these forums. Everything I do for the advanced stats thread is in R. So at a minimum, I have the baseline knowledge, I know data viz. I can talk to that on calls, I put my website and github page into online applications when I can. But I can't say on calls that I work with R at this agency, and I think it's holding me back.

 

[Machinehead]

I may move on from my current career because they simply treat us like crap. I'm begging for hours/benefits but CUNY seems to think I can live off my money tree in the backyard while I wait for it. I like this job, but I have maybe another year left before it's literally not supporting me anymore.

My friend just got a job at a call center, he says he'll send me the info. $20/hr with benefits. My cousin drives trains for the MTA. He says he'll let me know when they're testing and get me the booklet. $29/hr with benefits.

That's the type of stuff that would really give me a good foundation to stand on. It's just a personal quandary for me because I've always been a straight A's student and really good with books.

I'm not trying to look down on anyone's job, I just feel like I would be letting everyone down if I didn't do something "smart." Everyone's real proud that I'm a professor

 

[Gardner McKay]

Not really. The industry pivoted very recently and is going that way, and my agency just did not follow. I now only do partial what my peers are doing in the same position.



I've exhausted these options. There's no desire here to grow into anything more than what it is. The longer I stay here, the more I fall behind.

But you know me on these forums. Everything I do for the advanced stats thread is in R. So at a minimum, I have the baseline knowledge, I know data viz. I can talk to that on calls, I put my website and github page into online applications when I can. But I can't say on calls that I work with R at this agency, and I think it's holding me back.

Some companies are will to train you if you have at least a base knowledge. I would say something like, I don't currently use it at my role but I do have experience. If you can answer some of the more technical questions they throw at you, a potential employer may be willing to overlook the lack of use at your current role.

The best advice I can give is start applying to anything that A. is in acceptable pay range (be honest with yourself), B. you would be remotely happy in that career, C. you are decently qualified for.

 

[NCRanger]

I don't know but I will tell you this, job seekers have all the power right now, especially in the state I live in. Salaries are going through the roof with record low unemployment and it is a good time to be a job seeker.

Where is this mythical land?

Certainly not what I'm experiencing in Charlotte, North Carolina. Don't get me wrong, there are a TON of jobs here, it's just that 95% of them are entry and mid-level JOBS, not career builders in any way. Senior positions are few and far between and when one pops up, the salary actually goes down because the competition is so brutal.