OT: Career advice Part II

[will1066]

So when you say you worked from home but have to drive by the old place there's an office but the work was remote? And you either rarely or never went into the office? I had this type of environment in my last two jobs. I worked remote most of the time and came in for team outings. It was nice for team building but I loved WFH after Covid ended and I could actually leave the apartment for fun. During Covid I wanted to go back to the office. And then I got used to remote work when I could leave the house (during Covid I felt trapped by working remote). I still think if I didn't want to travel to the DR to see my wife I'd probably in some ways prefer hybrid. But with the caveat that every time I have a choice, I choose remote work out of sheer laziness.

I worked from home full time past 5 years. Rarely did I have to go on site at the old place -- there's an office but I worked remotely, after they decided that corporate people can stay remote after the pandemic. They also adopted flexwork, so was very lenient -- can leave the house to do things you needed to do -- as long as your work was done and you made up the hours. The office of my new employer is just a block or two away from my old employer -- both are government contracting companies, and all these companies are basically located next to each other at business parks/business centers.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Well, I do know that the official measure before the mid-1990's was the U6 number. It was changed to U3 then.

I think "officially" the U6 number is somewhere around 8%, while the U3 number is in the 4's.

I can't claim unemployment because I didn't work long enough.

I was very impressed to read you signed up for UBER to help tide you over. I respect that a lot. Some people feel if something is not enough to pay everything that it is useless but I think anything is a step in the right direction so I do hope it helps you with your bills until you find the right fit for yourself.

 

[Overcast]

The bolded was a different place, sorry I wasn't clear. And I was just trying to compare it to this place I just got let go from. I was trying to show how they were trying to make it work in this other place and even convinced me not to quit and kept me on for months and then gave me weeks notice when my contract was terminated. My point was it was a different contract place where they treated me very differently and didn't just terminate my contract without a word spoken in a week.

No I gotcha, I meant my comment as the previous place that tried to retain you and work with you shows how shitty of an environment was present at the most recent place.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

No I gotcha, I meant my comment as the previous place that tried to retain you and work with you shows how shitty of an environment was present at the most recent place.

Thanks, yeah. I was treated like a member of the team other than not being invited to some events (and even then we had a vendor take us out to a steakhouse and they invited me to it if I'm not thinking of a different company). It just shows that you don't have to treat someone as disposable just because he's a contract worker. To me what blows my mind about it is that it's a complete loophole. Because say I was a freelancer who made my own hours and worked where I wanted to and they didn't treat me as part of the team well I get the benefits of freedom. Here they wanted me in the office the same time as the employees but treated me as less than and if it got to benefits time I wouldn't have had any subsidized nor my holidays paid for. So they're basically getting all of the freedom, flexibility, and control and I'm getting f*** all for it compared to the employees.

 

[Gardner McKay]

The idea that asking about WFH is so offensive to companies that to me is toxic. Now maybe attitudes have shifted since 2023. But 2020-2023 showed people can be productive working from home. Having someone in the office is about control and nothing else and plenty of companies still are remote. It's an outdated way of thinking that working from home results in less productivity and personally I have found out to be the opposite. If I was told no and I insisted on it it's one thing but just being honestly asked I don't see the problem. The only way it's a problem is if you have toxic untrusting attitudes about the people that work for you. Because otherwise a simple no would suffice rather this best big offense and seeing it as a red flag.

It isn't about working from home. It is timing. Are you going to ask someone to marry you on the first date? You are on a contract, not an FTE. There are dozens of other qualified people who desperately want jobs, who would happily come into the office.

The right way to approach this is to show them how fantastic you are, why you are so good, and then when you bring it up, they will feel like they have to consider it because they don't want to lose someone so good.

I think you are right in that some companies have an outdated way of thinking, but I also think the inverse is true, that employees are blind to the fact that people who are co-located in an office space tend to be more productive. What does that mean? If you have an office of 50+ people and that is your central base of operations for a small organization, you will accomplish more working in an office. If you are a large company and you have an accounting and finance hub of 150 in Chicago, those 150 people will be more productive working in an office than if they were all remote.

If you are a global organization with small cohorts around the world and there is no geographical consolidation to your department structure, then yes, wasting time commuting to an office for the sake of having an ass in a seat, is less productive.

Employees refuse to consider the former, employers refuse to consider the latter.

Also, no offense, no good manager should trust someone brand new. Trust is built and earned, not given. I wouldn't allow someone to WFH for at least 6 months until I understood their working habits, strengths, weaknesses, productivity, etc.

 

[Gardner McKay]

The WFH thing should have been either clarified with the account manager before he even walked into the place day one, OR, if he was told to talk to XXXXX, XXXXX should have told him no, we don't WFH. It shouldn't have been ambiguous. Not getting a yes or no answer to a yes/no question, is a bit toxic. Yet, it probably would have been better for him to just assume no.

Contracting is a completely different world that in was pre-COVID. It's like you can't do anything right no matter what you do right.

I actually signed up to drive Uber and got approved this morning, just so I can put a couple dollars into the bank account each week.

The job market is absolutely stupid right now. There's absolutely no way the unemployment rate is under 5%.

It isn't. It is a political tool used by every administration for the last 25 years as a way to tout mediocre and poor economies as booming.

The real unemployment rate is closer to 15-20% and has been since 2008. How you might ask? The way the BLS calculates their statistics and what is presented to the public, often doesn't take into account underemployment.

If you were a Director of Finance but now work at McDonalds, you are considered employed by U-3 metrics. But you aren't. You're grossly underemployed. But discussing underemployment is taboo because it forces us to confront realities that every administration (yes, all of them), refuses to tackle.

 

[will1066]

I'm also here using my own laptop.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

It isn't about working from home. It is timing. Are you going to ask someone to marry you on the first date? You are on a contract, not an FTE. There are dozens of other qualified people who desperately want jobs, who would happily come into the office.

The right way to approach this is to show them how fantastic you are, why you are so good, and then when you bring it up, they will feel like they have to consider it because they don't want to lose someone so good.

I think you are right in that some companies have an outdated way of thinking, but I also think the inverse is true, that employees are blind to the fact that people who are co-located in an office space tend to be more productive. What does that mean? If you have an office of 50+ people and that is your central base of operations for a small organization, you will accomplish more working in an office. If you are a large company and you have an accounting and finance hub of 150 in Chicago, those 150 people will be more productive working in an office than if they were all remote.

If you are a global organization with small cohorts around the world and there is no geographical consolidation to your department structure, then yes, wasting time commuting to an office for the sake of having an ass in a seat, is less productive.

Employees refuse to consider the former, employers refuse to consider the latter.

Also, no offense, no good manager should trust someone brand new. Trust is built and earned, not given. I wouldn't allow someone to WFH for at least 6 months until I understood their working habits, strengths, weaknesses, productivity, etc.

I think the difference is it was an inquiry, not a request. Maybe they misread that. I also feel like the analogy doesn't work because spending time with someone for a lifetime is disproportionate from the impact of working from home. I get the thought process of productivity but I think it's a bit theoretical. In my personal experience a) there are more distractions in the office especially after you make relationships with coworkers. There's some temptation to talk to your work friends, for example. Which you see all the time. b) when you work from home there are fewer boundaries so people are more likely to work more than a 9-5 and even on weekends. Though this is less relevant for hourly work.

If being in the office is more productive they had a funny way of showing it, both Thursday and Friday had people working from home on the finance team. You're saying people will accomplish more in the office because there's human interaction involved. So they had people working from home two of the 5 days I was at the company.

That last point is outdated. A good amount of companies are remote still and post-Covid it was even more common. So a lot of people are hired into remote roles and their employers seem to trust them. If there's any evidence that these companies are doing worse because they're trusting their employees I haven't seen it.

And finally my whole point was the first one I mentioned, it was an inquiry not a request. Tell me it's onsite for contracters or it's onside for new hires and that's it. The idea that I did something highly offensive just by bringing up the topic is a power move to me. It's about treating the contractor as less than. And I'm sorry just because I wasn't hired as an FTE I don't think I should be treated more poorly in my eyes, especially considering this isn't freelancing I come into the office just like every employee. I'm not sitting at Starbucks making my own hours.

 

[NCRanger]

I think the difference is it was an inquiry, not a request. Maybe they misread that. I also feel like the analogy doesn't work because spending time with someone for a lifetime is disproportionate from the impact of working from home. I get the thought process of productivity but I think it's a bit theoretical. In my personal experience a) there are more distractions in the office especially after you make relationships with coworkers. There's some temptation to talk to your work friends, for example. Which you see all the time. b) when you work from home there are fewer boundaries so people are more likely to work more than a 9-5 and even on weekends. Though this is less relevant for hourly work.

If being in the office is more productive they had a funny way of showing it, both Thursday and Friday had people working from home on the finance team. You're saying people will accomplish more in the office because there's human interaction involved. So they had people working from home two of the 5 days I was at the company.

That last point is outdated. A good amount of companies are remote still and post-Covid it was even more common. So a lot of people are hired into remote roles and their employers seem to trust them. If there's any evidence that these companies are doing worse because they're trusting their employees I haven't seen it.

And finally my whole point was the first one I mentioned, it was an inquiry not a request. Tell me it's onsite for contracters or it's onside for new hires and that's it. The idea that I did something highly offensive just by bringing up the topic is a power move to me. It's about treating the contractor as less than. And I'm sorry just because I wasn't hired as an FTE I don't think I should be treated more poorly in my eyes, especially considering this isn't freelancing I come into the office just like every employee. I'm not sitting at Starbucks making my own hours.

What you think about remote work, statistics say about remote work, or what the truth is about remote work doesn't matter to the company signing your check or approving your hours. In your case, I do somewhat agree with you with the ambiguity. That said, you should have probably assumed no WFH for new employees or contractors. Is it stupid? Maybe.

Companies made a lot of mistakes during COVID. Some forced by the situation, others by stupidity. A lot of places overhired during it, public perception of the "white collar rich" person got to work at home and didn't lose their jobs caused a wild pendulum swing with RTO mandates, and companies finding out real fast that there wasn't enough real estate to house all their people.

The funny thing is though, back in 2019, many places were going hybrid anyway. Back when I was still employed full-time, they moved our physical location, and we were only required to be in the office once a week. When the RTO mandates came down in 2022, it was like everyone forgot about what the rules were supposed to be in 2020 and then moving forward pre-COVID. I casually mentioned it in conversation and it was like I had sprung three heads. I didn't have a massive issue with it, other than saying it seems more like reaction to public pressure rather than implementing corporate strategy.

I do think there is still a lot of shake-out relating to COVID policies happening. The overhiring has led to some really silly layoffs of people who have done absolutely nothing wrong (age, race, and disability targeting) as well as some unwritten expectations that are probably illegal or things that could be a one-time "over and above" to get a project done, becoming a weekly expectation with no compensation.

 

[Takeahnase]

One of the things my father taught me and I have taught my children when they say something isn’t fair is that you must live in the world as it is, not how you want it to be. Once you have success, and some power, then you can change things to how you want it to be.

But if you want to be the barista living in your Mom’s basement highlighting all that’s wrong with capitalism and the rules of the game and what’s fair or not don’t be surprised if no one gives a damn.

Be a player in the game first and then people might listen to your opinion about the rules of the game.

Btw, I am super pro WFH

 

[Gardner McKay]

One of the things my father taught me and I have taught my children when they say something isn’t fair is that you must live in the world as it is, not how you want it to be. Once you have success, and some power, then you can change things to how you want it to be.

But if you want to be the barista living in your Mom’s basement highlighting all that’s wrong with capitalism and the rules of the game and what’s fair or not don’t be surprised if no one gives a damn.

Be a player in the game first and then people might listen to your opinion about the rules of the game.

Btw, I am super pro WFH

To be honest, I am too. I recently moved remote for the first time in my life (sans covid), but it actually made sense. When our office in Atlanta was booming and had 100 people, it made sense for me to commute 75 min each way. The value I gained and what I was able to accomplish far outweighed the flexibility. It also expedited my career progression. I declined the option to WFH when it was offered to me. There is no way I would have become a Director at 33 and Global Director at 35 without it. Honestly, it goes to the advice my first CEO gave me - 50% of life is showing up. I thought it seemed overly simple at the time but I now understand it so much more.

Now that the Atlanta office is on life support and our headquarters has been moved to another city... I am more productive getting those 2.5 hours a day back.

Every situation is unique.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

What you think about remote work, statistics say about remote work, or what the truth is about remote work doesn't matter to the company signing your check or approving your hours. In your case, I do somewhat agree with you with the ambiguity. That said, you should have probably assumed no WFH for new employees or contractors. Is it stupid? Maybe.

Companies made a lot of mistakes during COVID. Some forced by the situation, others by stupidity. A lot of places overhired during it, public perception of the "white collar rich" person got to work at home and didn't lose their jobs caused a wild pendulum swing with RTO mandates, and companies finding out real fast that there wasn't enough real estate to house all their people.

The funny thing is though, back in 2019, many places were going hybrid anyway. Back when I was still employed full-time, they moved our physical location, and we were only required to be in the office once a week. When the RTO mandates came down in 2022, it was like everyone forgot about what the rules were supposed to be in 2020 and then moving forward pre-COVID. I casually mentioned it in conversation and it was like I had sprung three heads. I didn't have a massive issue with it, other than saying it seems more like reaction to public pressure rather than implementing corporate strategy.

I do think there is still a lot of shake-out relating to COVID policies happening. The overhiring has led to some really silly layoffs of people who have done absolutely nothing wrong (age, race, and disability targeting) as well as some unwritten expectations that are probably illegal or things that could be a one-time "over and above" to get a project done, becoming a weekly expectation with no compensation.

So political jealousy? Not every white collar worker is rich. Lots of office workers make 50k a year. Bitter fulfillment center workers can get f***ed with their jealousy and shouldn't be swaying company policy.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

One of the things my father taught me and I have taught my children when they say something isn’t fair is that you must live in the world as it is, not how you want it to be. Once you have success, and some power, then you can change things to how you want it to be.

But if you want to be the barista living in your Mom’s basement highlighting all that’s wrong with capitalism and the rules of the game and what’s fair or not don’t be surprised if no one gives a damn.

Be a player in the game first and then people might listen to your opinion about the rules of the game.

Btw, I am super pro WFH

I'm the first person to complain about entitled Gen Z. But I also don't think every complaint deserves to be met with "that's just the way it is". I recently saw a video from Mr. Wonderful of Shark Tank where he was trying to hire someone and she had two rounds and was invited to a third round with Kevin and said "I only do two rounds". THAT'S entitled. Even more crazy is that most of the comments supported her and said how three interviews are unreasonable. That's the BARE minimum at an office job and some jobs like investment banking you have all day interviews. That to me is entitled. If I demanded or even requested WFH I can see the case being made to me being entitled. However, I merely inquired about it and would not have complained if told "you're a contractor so it's on site". That said, I'm not living in anyone's basement. I'm complaining to friends and on a message board. I don't think there's anything unreasonable here.

 

[LokiDog]

Playing devil’s advocate as someone who has been a contractor a few times… if they said M-Th is 9-5 and Fri is 9-1 that’s not really ambiguous. As a former recruiter, if WFH was that important to you, clarify before you accept the offer. As someone else also mentioned, those first few weeks you want to be on your Ps and Qs. Being on your phone a lot, whether you have downtime or not, is not a good look. See where you can pitch in, make yourself valued, show you want to be part of the team. Without being an A-hole, I think some tough love is warranted. This whole board knows I’ve struggled with work situations the past few years, so don’t think I’m talking from some high horse. I’ve been low as can be and I’ve gotten plenty of tough love. Sometimes the best thing you can can do is acknowledge you made some mistakes and learn from it.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Playing devil’s advocate as someone who has been a contractor a few times… if they said M-Th is 9-5 and Fri is 9-1 that’s not really ambiguous. As a former recruiter, if WFH was that important to you, clarify before you accept the offer. As someone else also mentioned, those first few weeks you want to be on your Ps and Qs. Being on your phone a lot, whether you have downtime or not, is not a good look. See where you can pitch in, make yourself valued, show you want to be part of the team. Without being an A-hole, I think some tough love is warranted. This whole board knows I’ve struggled with work situations the past few years, so don’t think I’m talking from some high horse. I’ve been low as can be and I’ve gotten plenty of tough love. Sometimes the best thing you can can do is acknowledge you made some mistakes and learn from it.

The times weren't ambiguous, I felt like the in office policy was. Either way, I think it was an overreaction. And the unwritten rules are just boomer talk for I demand request and don't feel the need to reciprocate. f*** that.

I've asked before and was given answers not as a contractor sure but I don't deserve to be treated as a less than just because I'm a contractor.

I'll be more careful next time but also think I'm within my rights to call the guy am absolute and hope his organization goes belly up.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Playing devil’s advocate as someone who has been a contractor a few times… if they said M-Th is 9-5 and Fri is 9-1 that’s not really ambiguous. As a former recruiter, if WFH was that important to you, clarify before you accept the offer. As someone else also mentioned, those first few weeks you want to be on your Ps and Qs. Being on your phone a lot, whether you have downtime or not, is not a good look. See where you can pitch in, make yourself valued, show you want to be part of the team. Without being an A-hole, I think some tough love is warranted. This whole board knows I’ve struggled with work situations the past few years, so don’t think I’m talking from some high horse. I’ve been low as can be and I’ve gotten plenty of tough love. Sometimes the best thing you can can do is acknowledge you made some mistakes and learn from it.

Many of the most important things I have learned in life came from my mistakes. I have made many mistakes in my life. Strangely I'm almost proud of my mistakes because I almost never make the same mistake twice. I believe that is a big part of success (or not succeeding) in life. Nothing wrong with making a mistake. Mistakes are why pencils have erasers.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

Every company is different, but I work at a large (~20,000 people) company and it’s almost a perfect negative correlation. The people that work from home more are far less productive and less a part of the company culture. WFH on a Friday is code for getting a head start on your weekend plans or taking care of chores at home. That’s not a control thing - that’s a company paying an employee to do f*** all. Why would they be supportive of that?

Unfortunately, most companies will think of WFH this way and I dont blame them. Even if that’s not how you would treat it. It’s an awful hill to die on for your first week of work.

 

[effen]

You should never be on your phone your first week of a job when in office. If you've got that much downtime then buy an $8-$13 Udemy course relevant to your work and learn on their dime.

Decent chance you can expense it. At worst it makes you look intellectually curious and you can segue it into how passionate you are about [whatever].

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Every company is different, but I work at a large (~20,000 people) company and it’s almost a perfect negative correlation. The people that work from home more are far less productive and less a part of the company culture. WFH on a Friday is code for getting a head start on your weekend plans or taking care of chores at home. That’s not a control thing - that’s a company paying an employee to do f*** all. Why would they be supportive of that?

Unfortunately, most companies will think of WFH this way and I dont blame them. Even if that’s not how you would treat it. It’s an awful hill to die on for your first week of work.

But there was no hill to die on. This is what I don't get. I'm getting responses as if I requested or even demanded to work from home. I asked what the policy was. There are still plenty of companies where people work from home. In one of my companies in the time I was there its most productive period was when people WFH post-Covid. I don't understand why people seem to think I did anything but ask them about the policy. MOST companies are hybrid. I have been applying for months and very rarely do I see onsite opportunities. And not as many as there once were but there are plenty of fully remote jobs. It's a perfectly reasonable question. As I said I did not request of demand anything. Pre-Covid maybe it could raise eyebrows, in 2025 as a question there is nothing wrong with it. I'm pretty sure I asked at my last job and got an answer and no one threw a hissy fit. I'm sorry if just asking the question makes you lose your shit and fire someone without notice after 1 week you're a f***ing scumbag.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

You should never be on your phone your first week of a job when in office. If you've got that much downtime then buy an $8-$13 Udemy course relevant to your work and learn on their dime.

Decent chance you can expense it. At worst it makes you look intellectually curious and you can segue it into how passionate you are about [whatever].

This is good advice. To me that was the one egregious thing, it surprises me how many people think that the WFH questions were the more inappropriate thing. Frankly, with how much the recruiter who gave me feedback focused on it. I feel like the WFH question was a bigger issue for the CFO. My theory is that he took that as a character thing and didn't like me personally as a result.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Well I do have another REALLY good opportunity for a company that I really like. It's one of the few interviews I got with a company I've heard of, not only did I hear of them but they are a tech company that I use and use similar types of products and I really like the product. Glassdoor, while not infallible has them in the 4s. Hoping to put this shitty moment behind me and get a job I'm MUCH more interested in. It would be an amazing turn of events.

 

[effen]

This is good advice. To me that was the one egregious thing, it surprises me how many people think that the WFH questions were the more inappropriate thing. Frankly, with how much the recruiter who gave me feedback focused on it. I feel like the WFH question was a bigger issue for the CFO. My theory is that he took that as a character thing and didn't like me personally as a result.

If you're them, and some random you have no relationship with is asking about WFH instead of immersing themselves in this new job.... you'd probably have an adverse reaction to that too.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

If you're them, and some random you have no relationship with is asking about WFH instead of immersing themselves in this new job.... you'd probably have an adverse reaction to that too.

Not really. I asked in my last job about whether it was hybrid/onsite etc. I got an answer no one gave it more thought. The problem here is the power play of "oh this guy has some balls on him and is demanding things" not the benign question. An inquiry is not a demand. I did nothing wrong. Maybe on a practical level, in the sense that it wasn't the optimal move because it could turn some people off, but not on an ethical level. I would not respond like this because I respect people and if I didn't trust someone a week in I'd just tell that person either that it's onsite or onsite for the first month or two. This is the disconnect. Not that they didn't want me working remote. But that they took this over the top offense to the inquiry. No, I'm not some stick in the ass boomer (CFO wasn't a boomer but acted like one). I think it's perfectly reasonable to not trust a random, it's NOT reasonable to make an inquiry into a character assassination.

 

[JimmyH]

This is what I don't get.

You're demanding a home-based job that pays well. It would make sense if economies were entirely internet-based but this is not the case.

 

[NCRanger]

Not really. I asked in my last job about whether it was hybrid/onsite etc. I got an answer no one gave it more thought. The problem here is the power play of "oh this guy has some balls on him and is demanding things" not the benign question. An inquiry is not a demand. I did nothing wrong. Maybe on a practical level, in the sense that it wasn't the optimal move because it could turn some people off, but not on an ethical level. I would not respond like this because I respect people and if I didn't trust someone a week in I'd just tell that person either that it's onsite or onsite for the first month or two. This is the disconnect. Not that they didn't want me working remote. But that they took this over the top offense to the inquiry. No, I'm not some stick in the ass boomer (CFO wasn't a boomer but acted like one). I think it's perfectly reasonable to not trust a random, it's NOT reasonable to make an inquiry into a character assassination.

It seems more like a giant miscommunication than anything else, and it does seem as if your manager had some issues.

I have no idea where you were or what you were doing, but anywhere I've ever worked, it sometimes took a week just to get corporate access to systems and a few days to get up to some degree of speed of who does what, reporting structure, being introduced, etc. I was never doing massively important work in week one. When I was an acting manager, I didn't have any real expectations of a new hire for three weeks.

How often were you away from your desk? Seems like it had to be quite a bit if it was noticed that you weren't locking your screen. Couple that with the phone, and the WFH questions, even if it was minimal, a narrative was painted that may not have been anywhere near accurate.

Honestly, it just doesn't feel like a fit for you. It sounds like a place that thrives on chaos and has a poor culture. Then again, maybe the manager is just an ass.

I do encourage you to stop with the "boomer" crap. The youngest actual boomer is 60 years old. It makes you sound a bit arrogant and dismissive of anyone older than you.