Confirmed Trade: [CAR/PIT] Jake Guentzel (25% retained), Ty Smith for Michael Bunting, Ville Koivunen, Vasili Ponomarev, Cruz Lucius, 2024 cond. 1st, 2024 cond. 5th

[bleedgreen]

This is why it’s hard to take you serious. You are false. O’Marra was projected as a potential top 5 pick heading into the draft year. I had partial season tickets for the Otters back then. Nilsson in no way “washed out” with the Isles by the trade. He already had NHL games under his belt and was almost a PPG in the AHL. Koivunen has played great and is the best piece they got, but he’s hardly a sure bet.

Why was Nillson back in the AHL for a full season after playing 50 games in the NHL? Because he couldn’t play D, it was a big deal that year when they sent back down after he had played up in the bigs the year before. His AHL stats didn’t mesn anything to the Islanders at the time, they knew he had skill they wanted him to be more responsible and play a harder game.

O’Marra was supposed to be a top five pick, then he went 15th when the expectations dropped? He didn’t exactly destroy juniors and when the trade happened he wasn’t being hyped as a big scoring prospect. He had size with enough skill for them to hope he developed more. I remember people complaining back then that the Oilers hadn’t gotten enough.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

"My intention was to stay. They thought there was a better direction."

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/pittsburgh-penguins/podcasts/jake-guentzel-wanted-extension-pittsburgh-penguins

Just wanted to clear that up for anyone who thought it was Guentzel's decision not to re-sign with the Pens.

 

[DrDangles]

"My intention was to stay. They thought there was a better direction."

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/pittsburgh-penguins/podcasts/jake-guentzel-wanted-extension-pittsburgh-penguins

Just wanted to clear that up for anyone who thought it was Guentzel's decision not to re-sign with the Pens.

He should've re-signed before the deadline then.

Tavares also said he wanted to stay in New York and look how that went.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

He should've re-signed before the deadline then.

Tavares also said he wanted to stay in New York and look how that went.

There wasn't any dialogue from the Pens end since the off-season. So no, that wasn't an option.

 

[bleedgreen]

There wasn't any dialogue from the Pens end since the off-season. So no, that wasn't an option.

His agent doesn’t have a phone?

And every free agent says they’d prefer to stay. What’s he going to say to the Pens fans, that he’s leaving for a paycheck and he’ll miss them?

 

[SEALBound]

He should've re-signed before the deadline then.

Tavares also said he wanted to stay in New York and look how that went.

Pretty sure there were also several sources that said the team, Jake, and his agent wanted to wait until summer to discuss contracts.

As is, nothing keeping him from resigning in Pittsburgh as long as the demands fit with the direction of the team.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Pretty sure there were also several sources that said the team, Jake, and his agent wanted to wait until summer to discuss contracts.

As is, nothing keeping him from resigning in Pittsburgh as long as the demands fit with the direction of the team.

I haven't seen any sources saying that Guentzel wanted to wait until summer.

His agent doesn’t have a phone?

And every free agent says they’d prefer to stay. What’s he going to say to the Pens fans, that he’s leaving for a paycheck and he’ll miss them?

Did you read Dubas' comments?

Free agents don't need to say anything. And when they do say something about the team that traded them, most aren't as direct as Guentzel about their intention to stay.

 

[Darren McCord]

I haven't seen any sources saying that Guentzel wanted to wait until summer.


Did you read Dubas' comments?

Free agents don't need to say anything. And when they do say something about the team that traded them, most aren't as direct as Guentzel about their intention to stay.

Rumor: Jake Guentzel will not re-sign with Penguins this season.

One of the Penguins' top stars is reportedly not interested in re-signing during the season.

www.hockeyfeed.com

There’s articles out there suggesting it was a possibility.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Rumor: Jake Guentzel will not re-sign with Penguins this season.

One of the Penguins' top stars is reportedly not interested in re-signing during the season.

www.hockeyfeed.com

There’s articles out there suggesting it was a possibility.

Rumor: Jake Guentzel will not re-sign with Penguins this season.

One of the Penguins' top stars is reportedly not interested in re-signing during the season.

www.hockeyfeed.com

There’s articles out there suggesting it was a possibility.

There is no direct comment from anyone there.

 

[Darren McCord]

There is no direct comment from anyone there.

I mean there is a direct one from Pagnotta whether you think he is reliable thats a different story.

 

[Gurglesons]

lol then find more if there’s so many and it isn’t big deal. It’s a rental. You’re making it sound like it’s what the top few options go for every year, then find more examples. This isn’t on par with anything aside from the best deals out there for a couple of generations.

Koivunen is absolutely at the same level if not higher than either of those two. O’Marra didn’t exactly have the highest expectations bud. Nilsson had already washed out with the Isles. Koivunen finished sixth in the league in scoring, almost a ppg and it’s against men. He’s the same age Nilsson was at the time of the trade. Nilsson was on his way down as a top prospect and Koivunen is still on his way up.

It WAS 16 years ago! Who cares how long it took to look up lol. It isn’t hard to look any of it up. The point has been that for all the complaining no one would take the five seconds and even try to make the argument. This is at least the equivalent to that trade, and that was a huge trade. It’s not remotely underwhelming.

It's incredibly underwhelming and people trying to sell it as otherwise is just bizarre at this point.

Look at what Jake is doing for the Canes.

To get back a contract that Carolina was seeking to move and a bunch of scratch off tickets in Pono, Koivunen and a 2nd is just garbage.

It's more than likely that Bunting is the best player in the return to the Penguins. That is embarassing for the caliber of player they traded.

 

[Bowski]

"My intention was to stay. They thought there was a better direction."

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/pittsburgh-penguins/podcasts/jake-guentzel-wanted-extension-pittsburgh-penguins

Just wanted to clear that up for anyone who thought it was Guentzel's decision not to re-sign with the Pens.

Jake was not part of Dubas' Plan 2.0 (DP2).

1) Load up on old/aging players. CLM was already taken care of, EK successfully acquired, and Big Jeff Carter to follow this offseason.
2) Bring in mediocre "youth" to sponge off the aging vets' lazy bad habits and brain cramps.
3) Staple Bunting and Acciari to the roster.
4) Rust/Rakell/Smith.
5) Ryan Graves signed for 6 years / $27,000,000.
6) Tristan Jarry signed for 5 years / $26,875,000.
7) Owe your low standings 1st round pick to SJ, this year or next.
8) Continuously praise Sullivan since you've got him and win the "If you don't have a Mike Sullivan, you're looking for a Mike Sullivan" lottery by default.
9) Constantly adjust your glasses like Macho Man Randy Savage.
10) ???
11) Profit.

 

[orby]

I don't think resigning Guentzel would be wise. The Pens need to start a rebuild around a younger group of players. Bringing back Guentzel on a long, expensive contract would be counterproductive.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I mean there is a direct one from Pagnotta whether you think he is reliable thats a different story.

"Anyone" meaning anyone with direct knowledge.

We could get quotes from Eklund on FA intentions but I wouldn't be taking that to the bank either.

 

[Zbynek]

I think we found the title of the Dubas era in Pittsburgh.

This guy really is a complete idiot. Take away Eller and Ned and you have a worst GM of the year candidate.

 

[bleedgreen]

It's incredibly underwhelming and people trying to sell it as otherwise is just bizarre at this point.

Look at what Jake is doing for the Canes.

To get back a contract that Carolina was seeking to move and a bunch of scratch off tickets in Pono, Koivunen and a 2nd is just garbage.

It's more than likely that Bunting is the best player in the return to the Penguins. That is embarassing for the caliber of player they traded.

I feel like the concept of a rental trade has completely missed a subset of fans here. Presumably by ones that don’t sell very often maybe? You’re not supposed to be able to replace Jake in the trade. You wouldn’t be able to even if he was extended. In fact, if this trade had featured a signed Jake I wouldn’t assume the prospects would be any different. The pick would be a guaranteed first, and I don’t know that a single other thing would change. Maybe another lower round pick.

But…..it’s a rental and inside the value of rental this is a very high cost. There’s no proof it was deserving of any more because historically there is no real example of “more”. There’s a debatable similar at best. Jake’s success is irrelevant, most people assumed he would fit in great. The Canes are unlikely to keep him. This is for a few months.

You also clearly don’t know the prospects very well so there’s no real point to this. We also don’t know what prospects were available which makes the prospect argument even more useless.

 

[Gurglesons]

I feel like the concept of a rental trade has completely missed a subset of fans here. Presumably by ones that don’t sell very often maybe? You’re not supposed to be able to replace Jake in the trade. You wouldn’t be able to even if he was extended. In fact, if this trade had featured a signed Jake I wouldn’t assume the prospects would be any different. The pick would be a guaranteed first, and I don’t know that a single other thing would change. Maybe another lower round pick.

But…..it’s a rental and inside the value of rental this is a very high cost. There’s no proof it was deserving of any more because historically there is no real example of “more”. There’s a debatable similar at best. Jake’s success is irrelevant, most people assumed he would fit in great. The Canes are unlikely to keep him. This is for a few months.

You also clearly don’t know the prospects very well so there’s no real point to this. We also don’t know what prospects were available which makes the prospect argument even more useless.

Actually, I tihnk the real concept that is missed here is that you are a fan of the prospects and are thus weighing the value based on your personal feelings versus the actually value returned.

You are trying to adhere to "this is a rental trade". But the fact of the matter is players like Jake Guentzel are not moved in rental deals. The last time we saw a player of his caliber moved at the age he was moved was Marian Hossa. Marian Hossa returned Colby Armstrong, a 1st round pick, Erik Christensen, and Espositio (one year removed from being a 1st round pick). Granted that deal also included Dupuis. But, I would say Dupuis didn't have much value at that point in his career.

The Thrashers received a 1st round pick, a Michael Bunting type player, what was at the time the best prospect in the Penguins system, and an additional 30 pt guy.

For comparison the Penguins received Bunting, Ponomarev who is a potential NHL ready player whose upside is a bottom six forward, Koivunen who is a potential top six forward with no real elite aspects to his game, Lucuis who is a scratch off, and a 2nd round pick.

This isn't some crazy haul. It's a bunch of mid pieces for one of the best players moved at the deadline in the last 20 years.

Dubas clearly valued "quantity" over "quality". The Penguins should've been much more focused on acquiring a 1st and one of Carolina's top prospects, not diluting the value by getting Bunting back which is obvious to see is what happened.

 

[Gurglesons]

Also @bleedgreen I will digress and say that if we were going to acquire mid prospects from a franchise, Carolina is probably the best given their propensity to give up legitimate depth players like Luostrainen, Roy, etc in trades given their drafting prowess.

I guess my issue there is PIT chose undersize, "skill guys" instead of big dudes which is a frustrating trend with this organization. I would not be shocked to see Bunting be the best player in this deal which is frankly unacceptable given the level of talent we gave up. You need to take the lesser package from a team that offers you the better guarantee of a prospect. It's just bad thought process by Dubas.

 

[Peter Griffin]

This is f***ing infuriating:

Penguins' Kyle Dubas responds to Jake Guentzel trade backlash after deadline

Pittsburgh Penguins general manager Kyle Dubas addressed the backlash he received in the wake of the Jake Guentzel trade.

clutchpoints.com

So just run out Crosby's clock with this half assed half-in, half out philosophy that will see the Pens on the playoff margins for the next 5 years so they neither do playoff damage nor get any good draft picks. Must've got a mandate from FSG to hang onto Crosby for fans who will attend just to see a legend play in his twilight years.

This reminds me a lot of the “strategy” Benning employed during the Sedins’ final years in Vancouver and beyond.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Carolina wasn’t (allegedly) offering their top prospects for Pettersson, but you believe they would have offered it for a rental Guenztel?

Dubas got the best he probably could have gotten from Carolina. It sounded like the Canes and Rangers were the final two choices, and the Rangers also didn’t want to give up their top prospects.

So the odds of getting a top prospect for Guenztal was (apparently) never on the table.

 

[Gurglesons]

Carolina wasn’t (allegedly) offering their top prospects for Pettersson, but you believe they would have offered it for a rental Guenztel?

Dubas got the best he probably could have gotten from Carolina. It sounded like the Canes and Rangers were the final two choices, and the Rangers also didn’t want to give up their top prospects.

So the odds of getting a top prospect for Guenztal was (apparently) never on the table.

Then move on on from Carolina. Nobody is asking for Nikishin here. We wanted a 1st, Morrow / Blake, and a 3rd. PIT without question could've gotten a similar deal from some team with that value.

 

[Extra Texture]

I don't think resigning Guentzel would be wise. The Pens need to start a rebuild around a younger group of players. Bringing back Guentzel on a long, expensive contract would be counterproductive.

Agreed. That ship has sailed. If they had changed the coaching staff in the offseason, or even this season, we would have confirmation about this roster: is it a busted team that is finished no matter who is coaching? Or does it have a dead cat bounce in it, for a season or two, in which Guentzel might be of value?

The time to answer that question was probably about 2 years ago. Its frustrating but ownership decided sticking with this coach was more important than answering that question. At this point, let Jake sign his big deal, and lets focus on trying to revive any value for Rakell, Smith, Rust and EK.

It's fantastic to see how Jake is cleaning with the Canes, btw. Magnificent player.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Then move on on from Carolina. Nobody is asking for Nikishin here. We wanted a 1st, Morrow / Blake, and a 3rd. PIT without question could've gotten a similar deal from some team with that value.

Just because you “think” they could have got that value from some other team, doesn’t mean they actually could have.

You need to show some actual proof that they could have got the level of deal from some other team to make your assertion.

You can’t just sit here and say it’s possible when it very likely wasn’t possible.

 

[Gurglesons]

Just because you “think” they could have got that value from some other team, doesn’t mean they actually could have.

You need to show some actual proof that they could have got the level of deal from some other team to make your assertion.

You can’t just sit here and say it’s possible when it very likely wasn’t possible.

I mean we've seen a 1st, prospect, 3rd dead for endless amounts of UFAs that were not as good as Guentzel. Giroux comes to mind.

It's obvious that Dubas took a lesser return from Carolina to add in a "win now" piece like Bunting.

 

[Andre Palot]

Also @bleedgreen I will digress and say that if we were going to acquire mid prospects from a franchise, Carolina is probably the best given their propensity to give up legitimate depth players like Luostrainen, Roy, etc in trades given their drafting prowess.

I guess my issue there is PIT chose undersize, "skill guys" instead of big dudes which is a frustrating trend with this organization. I would not be shocked to see Bunting be the best player in this deal which is frankly unacceptable given the level of talent we gave up. You need to take the lesser package from a team that offers you the better guarantee of a prospect. It's just bad thought process by Dubas.

There's a @bleedgreen ?

Is that like bizzaro @Bleedred