Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2023 Off-season

[HTFN]

Who gives a crap about Laviolette anymore? The team's best players were physically broken almost from jump last season. They played well for a while but couldn't sustain it. Ovie's dad died. Dozens of factors contributed to their missing the playoffs. But they got a few terrific prospects, a long offseason to get healthy, and a new coach for their trouble.

It's a new day. Let it go.

there's not really a statute of limitations on arguing against stupid points, don't read it or don't respond and "let it go" if you want, but there are new quotes about the guy coming out literally right now and we're okay to discuss that if we want.

I think the idea that anybody underperforming doesn't get to talk about the coach maybe having something to do with that is a dumb point to make, adequately performing players have no need to speak out and no reason to care and it's a fallacy to ignore all of his words out of hand just because he's grumpy.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

So your argument is that for this to be true you'd need overperforming players that would also say the team was being held back? That makes sense to you?

Do you know of any overperforming Capitals this year who spoke super highly of Laviolette and the system, or credited him for their success? Hell, Orlov had a good year and left with some questions, and this is just stacking on top of what we all already saw this year with our own eyes. Mantha sounds like he's basically saying the safe, North American version of what Kuznetsov said but he's underperforming so we don't listen.

Why you'll still go to war for the guy is beyond me when it becomes clearer and clearer that this lame duck year had them playing basic, uninspired hockey and the team was awful. Like... what did he even do here to earn your goodwill?

Completely misread my position, but like Cali says….who cares? But to answer you, my argument is that I place less than zero value on any BS seeping out of Kuzy’s mouth.

More worrisome is he’s likely a shit influence on guys like AA. Any young guys that Kuzy hangs with over-delivering on their careers? If I’m management I’m all over his ass this year and would suspend him at the any sign of more BS, with an eye towards hopefully voiding his remaining contract.

 

[Calicaps]

there's not really a statute of limitations on arguing against stupid points, don't read it or don't respond and "let it go" if you want, but there are new quotes about the guy coming out literally right now and we're okay to discuss that if we want.

I think the idea that anybody underperforming doesn't get to talk about the coach maybe having something to do with that is a dumb point to make, adequately performing players have no need to speak out and no reason to care and it's a fallacy to ignore all of his words out of hand just because he's grumpy.

Sure, there's new comments and no statute of limitations. But it's all pointless hindsight which feels like a boring and weird place to put much attention with the new season right around the corner.

As for Kuzy's comments in particular, I totally disagree. I care what the consistently high-performing players say--especially when they have an unexpected down year. Kuzy's underperformance predates Lavi... by a lot. He's had maybe a couple of really strong seasons in his entire career. When I hear about Babcock, for instance, and look at how well individual players on the Leafs played IN SPITE of him, I'm impressed. When I see Kuz take zero responsibility for his shit play year after year, I tune him out.

 

[Eirikrautha]

oh go away. the season is about to start and your trolling is unwelcome.

Now, now... Let's not ignore the service that JayBeagleFanAccount brings to us. I, for one, was on the fence about whether to take Kuzy's whining seriously. Then I saw that JBFA agreed with it, which allowed me to dismiss it as erroneous without another thought.

 

[HTFN]

Sure, there's new comments and no statute of limitations. But it's all pointless hindsight which feels like a boring and weird place to put much attention with the new season right around the corner.

As for Kuzy's comments in particular, I totally disagree. I care what the consistently high-performing players say--especially when they have an unexpected down year. Kuzy's underperformance predates Lavi... a lot. He's had maybe a couple of really strong seasons in his entire career. When I hear about Babcock, for instance, and look at how well individual players on the Leafs played IN SPITE of him, I'm impressed. When I see Kuz take zero responsibility for his shit play year after year, I tune him out.

I don't think it's just Kuznetsov. Orlov has a string of more diplomatic but definitely questionable quotes about the conclusion of his time in Washington, coaching decisions, comparing the sophistication of Boston's game vs. Washington's, and feeling like he was finally having fun playing the game again. Smart money says Mantha's been broken down and f***ed around with a lot too, and just knows better than to pull a Kuzy when he's got another contract left to sign somewhere.

I don't think Kuznetsov is the first or only player that really didn't enjoy the last year or two under Laviolette and struggled as a result. Feels fair to celebrate not having to deal with it anymore and then let it go when Carbery actually starts doing stuff, I really didn't like Caps hockey under Laviolette either.

 

[Calicaps]

I don't think it's just Kuznetsov. Orlov has a string of more diplomatic but definitely questionable quotes about the conclusion of his time in Washington, coaching decisions, comparing the sophistication of Boston's game vs. Washington's, and feeling like he was finally having fun playing the game again. Smart money says Mantha's been broken down and f***ed around with a lot too, and just knows better than to pull a Kuzy when he's got another contract left to sign somewhere.

I don't think Kuznetsov is the first or only player that really didn't enjoy the last year or two under Laviolette and struggled as a result. Feels fair to celebrate not having to deal with it anymore and then let it go when Carbery actually starts doing stuff, I really didn't like Caps hockey under Laviolette either.

Orlov was pissed off at that point, so, grain of salt there. I mean, if he was so unhappy in DC, why the urgency to stay? And FWIW, Lavi's whole career has been short stints that are best early. With the Caps, that string brokedown, largely, I think, because it coincided with the worst of the pandemic. But again, Lavi's gone, and I don't see much value in rehashing his tenure.

RE: Mantha and many other guys, I'm interested to see what the future holds.

 

[g00n]

Orlov was pissed off at that point, so, grain of salt there. I mean, if he was so unhappy in DC, why the urgency to stay? And FWIW, Lavi's whole career has been short stints that are best early. With the Caps, that string brokedown, largely, I think, because it coincided with the worst of the pandemic. But again, Lavi's gone, and I don't see much value in rehashing his tenure.

RE: Mantha and many other guys, I'm interested to see what the future holds.

This, plus the fact that Mantha has been basically the same guy whether here or in DET (and I haven't seen any comments from him...only speculation here).

But in general I don't think it's a controversial situation if the players burned out on a coach. Hasn't this franchise pretty much done exactly that for every coach? Some might argue Trotz as the exception but It hink winning in 2018 with Trotz came after the burnout had run its course and the players picked themselves up. THAT is why they won more than anything else.

 

[HTFN]

Orlov was pissed off at that point, so, grain of salt there. I mean, if he was so unhappy in DC, why the urgency to stay? And FWIW, Lavi's whole career has been short stints that are best early. With the Caps, that string brokedown, largely, I think, because it coincided with the worst of the pandemic. But again, Lavi's gone, and I don't see much value in rehashing his tenure.

RE: Mantha and many other guys, I'm interested to see what the future holds.

He says something about it but I can't find it right now, already closed the crap I was looking through. It was something to the tune of that he'd been there for 11 years, and had good coaches and bad coaches. I think he'd been around long enough to know Laviolette wasn't staying and wouldn't really impact his decision to stay. If he didn't already know that, I'm sure his agent was paying enough attention to realize Laviolette had no contract and wasn't going to get one. Staying with the club was more important than escaping a coach who was leaving anyway.

I do agree that they were robbed of his highest potential year, but I also think anybody with that kind of shelf life isn't really a tactician or a mastermind and the older and more stable he got the more he lost his touch. Being a younger, relatable player coach probably gets harder to do when you're pushing 60 and have been well paid enough to forget that you once weren't.

I look at NYR with Lafreniere and Kakko+ and think they got one of the worst coaches imaginable to unlock those guys

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Orlov was pissed off at that point, so, grain of salt there. I mean, if he was so unhappy in DC, why the urgency to stay? And FWIW, Lavi's whole career has been short stints that are best early. With the Caps, that string brokedown, largely, I think, because it coincided with the worst of the pandemic. But again, Lavi's gone, and I don't see much value in rehashing his tenure.

RE: Mantha and many other guys, I'm interested to see what the future holds.

Yup totally….Orlov was out and sore about it.

 

[HTFN]

Yup totally….Orlov was out and sore about it.

lol, so literally nothing will do it for you, got it. A good player who was good for years, had a bad year, got traded, outproduced his season total in half the games, and publicly spoke about the difference in play is still not good enough because he's disgruntled about being traded and not just telling the truth.

Okay.

 

[Langway]

I think the unpleasant truth is going to be that they had (and have) little choice but to play something of a dump-in checkfest game. I don't have the microstats but IINM I don't think they even were among the highest percentage dump-in teams like a Carolina. When you have an older group that's less able to back off defenders, quickly navigate through the NZ and earn clean entries there's not much of a choice. You manage pucks, get it deep or pucks get turned over and it's trouble. Maybe more of an emphasis on the value of clean entries would have helped but athletically they're pretty limited.

Kuznetsov preferring aesthetics over winning says it all about his mindset post-Cup. He does have some better points, namely Lavi's intolerance for skilled freelancers let's say. Vrana & Sprong were purged largely because they weren't cookie-cutter enough and they lost some needed diversity as a result. Such a single-minded mentality was bound to reach a stale dead-end. Not better managing individuals as individuals is I think valid.

As this team declines athletically they're going to need to some sort of mental advantage or else they're likely sunk. Maybe Carbery can foster it. I don't tend to think it will be naturally occurring to a high degree. They've proven too flimsy over the years under pressure to expect drastically different composure all of the sudden. Backstrom, Strome, Fehervary and Sandin are IMO the keys for whether they're competitive this season. Kuznetsov is a pure joker from here on out in every sense.

Fundamentally (and analytically) they're not going to be anyone's hot pick. They've got a lot to prove and expecting Carbery to waltz in and suddenly change their stripes is unlikely. There are elements he should be able to sharpen up here and there. There were plenty of areas Lavi seemed to just let go which became a downward cycle. But the whole dump-in/carry-in issue is probably not going to drastically improve simply by changing coaches IMO and questioning their overall vision remains pretty legit.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

He says something about it but I can't find it right now, already closed the crap I was looking through. It was something to the tune of that he'd been there for 11 years, and had good coaches and bad coaches. I think he'd been around long enough to know Laviolette wasn't staying and wouldn't really impact his decision to stay. If he didn't already know that, I'm sure his agent was paying enough attention to realize Laviolette had no contract and wasn't going to get one. Staying with the club was more important than escaping a coach who was leaving anyway.

I do agree that they were robbed of his highest potential year, but I also think anybody with that kind of shelf life isn't really a tactician or a mastermind and the older and more stable he got the more he lost his touch. Being a younger, relatable player coach probably gets harder to do when you're pushing 60 and have been well paid enough to forget that you once weren't.

I look at NYR with Lafreniere and Kakko+ and think they got one of the worst coaches imaginable to unlock those guys

So if the Rangers/Laf/Kakko improve this year…..it will be despite Lavi? I don’t have any particular affinity for Lavi if I’m being honest, but I do recognize him as a good coach.

lol, so literally nothing will do it for you, got it. A good player who was good for years, had a bad year, got traded, outproduced his season total in half the games, and publicly spoke about the difference in play is still not good enough because he's disgruntled about being traded and not just telling the truth.

Okay.

All you have is a wantaway and a guy who got hit in the ass by the door on his way out…I simply greatly devalue their opinions Is all because they are caught up in the emotion of it all.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I think the unpleasant truth is going to be that they had (and have) little choice but to play something of a dump-in checkfest game. I don't have the microstats but IINM I don't think they even were among the highest percentage dump-in teams like a Carolina. When you have an older group that's less able to back off defenders, quickly navigate through the NZ and earn clean entries there's not much of a choice. You manage pucks, get it deep or pucks get turned over and it's trouble. Maybe more of an emphasis on the value of clean entries would have helped but athletically they're pretty limited.

Kuznetsov preferring aesthetics over winning says it all about his mindset post-Cup. He does have some better points, namely Lavi's intolerance for skilled freelancers let's say. Vrana & Sprong were purged largely because they weren't cookie-cutter enough and they lost some needed diversity as a result. Such a single-minded mentality was bound to reach a stale dead-end. Not better managing individuals as individuals is I think valid.

As this team declines athletically they're going to need to some sort of mental advantage or else they're likely sunk. Maybe Carbery can foster it. I don't tend to think it will be naturally occurring to a high degree. They've proven too flimsy over the years under pressure to expect drastically different composure all of the sudden. Backstrom, Strome, Fehervary and Sandin are IMO the keys for whether they're competitive this season. Kuznetsov is a pure joker from here on out in every sense.

Fundamentally (and analytically) they're not going to be anyone's hot pick. They've got a lot to prove and expecting Carbery to waltz in and suddenly change their stripes is unlikely. There are elements he should be able to sharpen up here and there. There were plenty of areas Lavi seemed to just let go which became a downward cycle. But the whole dump-in/carry-in issue is probably not going to drastically improve simply by changing coaches IMO and questioning their overall vision remains pretty legit.

Disagree…..they were purged because they had significant flaws….

…..and I agree, they probably don’t have the horses to run a true possession offense.

 

[HTFN]

So if the Rangers/Laf/Kakko improve this year…..it will be despite Lavi? I don’t have any particular affinity for Lavi if I’m being honest, but I do recognize him as a good coach.

I don't know, because I don't know what improve means or how you're measuring it

If Lafreniere comes into this season two steps faster than he's ever been and scores more just because he's finally gaining separation, is that a Laviolette system thing or just a guy working out the worst part of his game? If their ES production and deployment is virtually no different but one of those kids gets PP time and scores like 30 more points, did Laviolette do that? Guess it depends on the role of the powerplay coach. I'm not willing to say it's impossible, but it's really going to depend on what the fans say about why and how.

If he comes in and suddenly the Rangers are playing some East-West system wildly different than the Caps' was and they flourish in a system basically made for them, okay. I'll happily stand corrected. I don't think that's Laviolette's MO but I'm not going to say he would never ever try it, anybody can try to learn new tricks.

If the Rangers themselves take off but the kids get buried, well, that's basically every Laviolette stereotype all packed together so I hope they have the years after figured out because the team won't get better and they also won't have the kids.

 

[twabby]

I don't think Kuznetsov's comments should be given any weight or be used as any evidence against Laviolette.

But we do have other pieces of evidence that suggests Laviolette didn't do his job well. For instance, he kept playing Evgeny Kuznetsov significant minutes last year.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I don't think Kuznetsov's comments should be given any weight or be used as any evidence against Laviolette.

But we do have other pieces of evidence that suggests Laviolette didn't do his job well. For instance, he kept playing Evgeny Kuznetsov significant minutes last year.

He didn’t have a choice….they had no NHL ready talents to replace him and his (near) $8 mil salary….just like this year, they are forced to try and make it work.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I don't know, because I don't know what improve means or how you're measuring it

If Lafreniere comes into this season two steps faster than he's ever been and scores more just because he's finally gaining separation, is that a Laviolette system thing or just a guy working out the worst part of his game? If their ES production and deployment is virtually no different but one of those kids gets PP time and scores like 30 more points, did Laviolette do that? Guess it depends on the role of the powerplay coach. I'm not willing to say it's impossible, but it's really going to depend on what the fans say about why and how.

If he comes in and suddenly the Rangers are playing some East-West system wildly different than the Caps' was and they flourish in a system basically made for them, okay. I'll happily stand corrected. I don't think that's Laviolette's MO but I'm not going to say he would never ever try it, anybody can try to learn new tricks.

If the Rangers themselves take off but the kids get buried, well, that's basically every Laviolette stereotype all packed together so I hope they have the years after figured out because the team won't get better and they also won't have the kids.

Improve…..to get better.

More points, wins, better team D, more points as players, better performance overall. Doesn’t need to be overly complicated for me.

 

[HTFN]

Improve…..to get better.

More points, wins, better team D, more points as players, better performance overall. Doesn’t need to be overly complicated for me.

Of course it doesn't, because you'll make the conclusion first and rationalize it with any of these nebulous terms, but that's not how to run an NHL team. If they improve because they trap like crazy, lean hard on a Vezina caliber goaltender and a first line, don't improve any of their youth, but come out like 7-10 points ahead of last year in the standings is that really improvement to you from a team that already has a top line, D, and G, but really needs the team to work? How about if they win the division and then immediately flame out of the playoffs?

If they have a "better performance" than last year but earn 10 points fewer in close games are you calling that improvement? You've left the most nebulous measure of defining this possible, because Laviolette doesn't directly have a hand in every system that makes those things work.

If they win more games because their PP starts miraculously operating at 30%, is that on Peter Laviolette if he doesn't coach the PP or manage the personnel, same way he didn't here? "Improve" as it relates specifically to Peter Laviolette is not going to be measured on a points standard.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Of course it doesn't, because you'll make the conclusion first and rationalize it with any of these nebulous terms, but that's not how to run an NHL team. If they improve because they trap like crazy, lean hard on a Vezina caliber goaltender and a first line, don't improve any of their youth, but come out like 7-10 points ahead of last year in the standings is that really improvement to you from a team that already has a top line, D, and G, but really needs the team to work? How about if they win the division and then immediately flame out of the playoffs?

If they have a "better performance" than last year but earn 10 points fewer in close games are you calling that improvement? You've left the most nebulous measure of defining this possible, because Laviolette doesn't directly have a hand in every system that makes those things work.

If they win more games because their PP starts miraculously operating at 30%, is that on Peter Laviolette if he doesn't coach the PP or manage the personnel, same way he didn't here? "Improve" as it relates specifically to Peter Laviolette is not going to be measured on a points standard.

you seem like you’re trying awfully hard to make it near impossible for him to get any credit If they do improve lol….just sayin….I hope you can let the LavI years go at some point.

and to answer the dumbest of questions….yes, if they improve their regular season record, it IS better. They improved. They win a first round series, YES they are better/improved.

 

[HTFN]

you seem like you’re trying awfully hard to make it near impossible for him to get any credit If they do improve lol….just sayin….I hope you can let the LavI years go at some point.

and to answer the dumbest of questions….yes, if they improve their regular season record, it IS better. They improved. They win a first round series, YES they are better/improved.

yikes.

we'll see I guess

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

Disagree…..they were purged because they had significant flaws….

…..and I agree, they probably don’t have the horses to run a true possession offense.

Most players in the league have significant flaws but those two were better than most at putting pucks into the net at even strength. Both had (have) speed to burn. Both are things this team sorely needs.

Character, grit, the tuffniss, all fine and dandy to an extent but you have to be able to skate and to score in today's NHL.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Most players in the league have significant flaws but those two were better than most at putting pucks into the net at even strength. Both had (have) speed to burn. Both are things this team sorely needs.

Character, grit, the tuffniss, all fine and dandy to an extent but you have to be able to skate and to score in today's NHL.

And their flaws/issues are worse than many of their skillset. Caps haven’t missed either guy in particular and I‘d wager GMBM maybe knew there were some off ice issues with Jake sadly….cut bait before it got bad. I’d love a few extra 20 goal scorers, but I‘d prefer better than them given the choice.

 

[YippieKaey]

And their flaws/issues are worse than many of the their skillset. Caps haven’t missed either guy in particular and I‘d wager GMBM maybe knew there were some off ice issues with Jake sadly….cut bait before it got bad. I’d love a few extra 20 goal scorers, but I‘d prefer better than them given the choice.

Turns out that was not the choice though. A third line of Vrana-Bäckström-Sprong could be a superpower at this point. Defensively suspect yes but what we needed last year above all else was scoring. The team had what, two 20-goal scorers? That's never gonna work.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Turns out that was not the choice though. A third line of Vrana-Bäckström-Sprong could be a superpower at this point. Defensively suspect yes but what we needed last year above all else was scoring. The team had what, two 20-goal scorers? That's never gonna work.

Those aren’t two guys I want on my team if I have the choice….GMBM it seems, agreed. Gotta get different ones….they tried….Mantha was just a dud, but they have since added Strome and Milano could score 20….

 

[YippieKaey]

Those aren’t two guys I want on my team if I have the choice….GMBM it seems, agreed. Gotta get different ones….they tried….Mantha was just a dud, but they have since added Strome and Milano could score 20….

Yeah im happy about Strome although him having a contract now could affect his production going forwards if the rumours are true. Milano is a nice piece but production wise i'd rather have a correctly utilized Daniel Sprong. Or ofc a Vrana without the issues but that might also not be an option.