Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines/etc) | 2023-24 Regular Season Edition

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The biggest issue I have with the stuff surrounding the retool is that people compress the timeline. Look at the 19-20 season: Backstrom Oshie Ovechkin were 32 33 34, and we had Vrana Wilson Kuznetsov at 23 25 27. That's a robust top 6 at that time, as evidenced by the fact that they were 2nd in goals in the league that year. You move to the next year, 20-21, and the Caps were 3rd in goals again, with the coaching change from Reirden to Laviolette. They move Vrana for Mantha, so trade 24 for 26, but again the old guard were the top 3 scorers, Backstrom, Oshie and Ovechkin in that 56 game season. The pipeline then was a little bare, but when your top line is still producing at 33-35, and your 2nd line is 26 26 and 28, you'd think you have a couple years left of runway.

However, you also had the disruption of the pandemic, but what it also did was preclude any sort of cap growth. So the Caps lacked any sort of internal high-end forward prospects, and the flat cap forced them to be dollar-in/dollar-out and not add any external solutions. I remember doing some CapFriendly stuff prior to the pandemic where they could have fit Taylor Hall as a UFA under the cap with a bit of massaging and the cap going up. Given his results since that year, it would have been a bust, but there's an extra top 6 guy that Mac's been looking for.

The draft side of things is a bit different. The drafts of 08-13 had a bunch of picks hit their ceilings, whereas the drafts of 14-19 had more of them only hit their floors. An example of this is taking Holtby/Grubauer in the 4th and getting 2 1a goalies, as opposed to taking Samsonov and Vanecek in the 1st/2nd and getting 2 1b goalies. Another example is Johansson, Wilson and Burakovsky ending up as full-time top 6, with Vrana, McMichael and Protas not having gotten to full-time (yet). You also have the one bust pick of Johansen, where if they had drafted DeBrincat instead, a bunch of complaints about BMac's drafting would be much more muted. From my study of their picks, the biggest trend they missed was small skill later in the draft, and even then there's just so few successes.

To use the Athletic's model from their draft rankings (Ranking the NHL’s best and worst drafting teams since 2007: 16-1), from 09-13 they were +32 wins above average drafting, and from 14-18 they were +6 (I'm ignoring the -5 from 2018 as too small a sample size for now). DeBrincat himself is already 14 wins, so that would cut the deficit by more than half. About the worst thing you can say with regards to the 14-18 drafts was they didn't take any swings at skill, and went too D/G heavy early rounds. Sometimes that's just the way your list goes.
 
I think it's mainly the dip in draft performance that's been concerning. 2023 was better but they need to nail it consistently to replenish. He's struggled either via the draft or by other means to rejuvenate the lineup.
Is this true though?

I mean, I'll agree he's not probably one of the more elite drafters in the league, but is there any evidence that's we're inconsistent in regards to the league averages for draft success by round? (I generally don't know, but I suspect if we were producing less NHLers with our picks than the league average it would be something the analytics folks would be talking about).


Lets just look at the first 3 rounds though of his drafting since he took over in 2014:

2014

1st Round: 13th Vrana
2nd Round: 39th Vanecek
3rd Round: 89th Walker

All 3 are NHL level talent, none are still with the club. We could probably spin our wheels all day talking about this class, but I think overall it would be a decent class.

2015
1st Round: 22 Samsonov
2nd Round: 57 Siegenthaler
3rd Round: No Pick

Probably another exampler of "potential not realized" Hard to predict Sammy would be what ever he is, seems like even the rest of the league still saw potential in him even as recently as when we released him, but undoubtedly that's a miss for us. Sieg's was good talent, he is a casualty of other bad roster management (Chara being brought in)

2016

1st Round: 28 Johansen
2nd: No Pick
3rd: 87 Pilon

No other way to cut it, this was a bad draft for us. Not a single NHL player to show for the first three rounds

2017
No picks in the first three rounds because of trades (Shattenkirk, Eller, Weber). Clearly the result of recognizing a window and pushing the chips in, but that evaluation of NHL talent wasn't spot on. Again, it's a different discussion, but I think that 2017 roster was maybe the best we ever assembled we just couldn't get past Pitt. That said, you'd be hard pressed to really make an argument that Weber or Shattenkirk played much of a role in making that roster dangerous.


2018

1st: 31 Alexeyev
2nd: 47 Clark
3rd: 93 Sutter

Jury is still out on Alexeyev but he's shown potential, those next too are some pretty glaring misses though. Not a great draft for us, that said, at a glance this draft looks extremely weak in general talent. Not a single team found an all-star outside the first round.


2019

1st: 25 McMichael
2nd: 56 Leason
3rd: 91 Protas

Excellent draft for us, all later in the round picks, but all three have already shown they're NHL level players and figure into the future plans for the franchise.


2020
1st 22 Lapierre
2nd: No Pick
3rd. No Pick

We did a bunch of pick swapping here in regards to moving guys out and also TDL acquisitions. Of the three picks we had in our possession at some point that we then traded, not a single one has played NHL minutes. Is that an indictment more on the drafting of those other teams? Maybe, but this is looking like a pretty weak class too.


2021
1st No Pick
2nd 55 Iorio
3rd 80 Johnson

Hard to evaluate at this point, the club seems pretty high on Iorio's future so I do see him becoming an NHLer for someone at some point. Brent Johnson still seems like a project, but some d-men do take a while.

2022

1st: 20 Miroshnichenko
2nd: Suzdalev
3rd: No Pick

Miro is still TBD but the club obviously sees him in a top 6 role in the next few years. The second and third round picks were spent in an effort to do some cap management. I will say this draft is looking weird already, Miro still has the potential to be one of the better players taken, no one has really stepped up yet. Also Suz seems to have a lot of buzz, this class could be interesting.


2023
1st 8 Leonard
2nd 40 Cristall
3rd No pick

Obviously impossible to tell at the moment, but signs are point to this being a really good draft for us. Both Leonard and Cristall are tearing it up in their respective leagues, I suspect both will get a pretty good look next year before going to Hershey (Leonard making the team next year would not shock me).




So there we have it, I probably missed some picks because I did this pretty imprecisely, but I do think it shows our drafting isn't terrible, but it's not great either. I think it's trended upward in the last few years, as one would hope as you move further down in draft order, and I think that's the key. Our picks late in the round are hit or miss, but you should see less of that the further you get into the lottery. It'll be concerning if we start seeing major misses as a lottery team.
 
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2018

1st: 31 Alexeyev
2nd: 47 Clark
3rd: 93 Sutter

Jury is still out on Alexeyev but he's shown potential, those next too are some pretty glaring misses though. Not a great draft for us, that said, at a glance this draft looks extremely weak in general talent. Not a single team found an all-star outside the first round.

2022

1st: 20 Miroshnichenko
2nd: Suzdalev
3rd: No Pick

Miro is still TBD but the club obviously sees him in a top 6 role in the next few years. The second and third round picks were spent in an effort to do some cap management. I will say this draft is looking weird already, Miro still has the potential to be one of the better players taken, no one has really stepped up yet. Also Suz seems to have a lot of buzz, this class could be interesting.

You missed Fehervary at 46 in 2018, and Chesley at 37/Ludwig Persson at 85 (Suzdalev also a 3rd not a 2nd) in 2022 as relevant players/prospects.

Another example of ceiling floor is the Caps using 27 53 55 and 57 to draft Carlson, Orlov, Bowey and Eric Mestery, and getting a #1, a #2/3, a tweener and a bust, compared to using 28 31 46 and 57 to draft Johansen, Alexeyev, Fehervary and Siegenthaler, and getting 2 #4/5s and a couple tweener/busts.
 
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However, you also had the disruption of the pandemic, but what it also did was preclude any sort of cap growth. So the Caps lacked any sort of internal high-end forward prospects, and the flat cap forced them to be dollar-in/dollar-out and not add any external solutions. I remember doing some CapFriendly stuff prior to the pandemic where they could have fit Taylor Hall as a UFA under the cap with a bit of massaging and the cap going up. Given his results since that year, it would have been a bust, but there's an extra top 6 guy that Mac's been looking for.
But the Mantha trade was in 2021 when their forecasting had to have adjusted for this. It was the big move they had in them, particularly given the pick involved to dump Panik, and it's been a bust from the standpoint of propping up the core.

The front office has been pretty resourceful in at least keeping it afloat without much space but there's still been an inability to get out ahead of decline by adding legit fortification. Their offensive decline is nothing new. It's been evident for years since the Cup, often most glaringly in how PP1 has been unable to execute in higher pressure situations. Their offensive dysfunction extends well out of the forwards into how the back-end has been built with little upside. They've stuck to largely safe north/south checking hockey only minus the grit buy-in to make it more of a functional net drive and power game. Overall there's little offensive identity, determination or really effective leadership at this point. It's just trying to get them to work hard enough as a group to be in decent positions only with execution and sense that make it hard to gain traction.

At this point they not only need a pretty significant top six upgrade but also one that carries substantial leadership and offensive IQ. It's a tall order to secure quickly and conveniently. But I do wonder if ownership won't be in MacLellan's ear to be particularly aggressive seeing to it that the chase to 895 isn't slipping away. I don't doubt they initiate some bold action next off-season in an attempt to keep that pursuit intact, even if it lengthens an eventual rebuild. And that may not be the wrong call given the likely immensity of that task when the time comes.
 
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I agree with your premise, but it is more just the core hitting their decline phase rather than any lack of reinforcement. I mean, look at the turnover from 20-21 to today for skaters:

Remain: Backstrom/Carlson/Dowd/Jensen/Kuznetsov/Vrana-Mantha/Oshie/Ovechkin/Wilson [Fehervary/van Riemsdyk]

Out: Chara/Dillon/Eller/Hagelin/Hathaway/Orlov/Schultz/Sheary/Siegenthaler/Sprong

Everybody in that list is over 30 apart from Siegenthaler and Sprong

In: Aube-Kubel/Bear/Edmundson/Malenstyn/McMichael/Milano/Protas/Sandin/Strome [Lapierre/Pacioretty/Phillips]

That reset, going from 30->24 in average age would be perfect if the core were all still 27/33 in performance. Unfortunately, the top line wasn't able to hold off Father Time any more, and the second line did not maintain their production as smoothly as the top line did from 28-30.

Also, the consequence of having little talent coming up is that nobody really needs to get paid. McMichael and Sandin are the only players who need new contracts in the next couple of years, meanwhile we have 10.7 and like 27 million in expiring contracts the next two offseasons. We need half a roster for 25-26, but we have 50 million to spend. There would be no barrier to signing Draisaitl, for example, however unlikely it is he reaches UFA.

You've mentioned adding to the top 6 a lot, and the answer to that question for the past couple of years has always been the Caps 2023-2027 1st round picks. Those are the players that are going to replace our current core, not players currently in the NHL. Their biggest miss for an acquisition was on Eichel, and who knows how realistic that deal ever was. If the timelines between the Vrana/Eichel discontent had matched up better, maybe there's a universe where that deal gets made instead of Tuch being the NHL winger. There's an argument that Dylan Strome might be the 2nd best non-rental center to have moved teams post-pandemic (his brother Ryan, Dubois, Kadri, Trocheck, Horvat, and Danault are the other options), and he's younger than all of them except Dubois.
 
Is this true though?

I mean, I'll agree he's not probably one of the more elite drafters in the league, but is there any evidence that's we're inconsistent in regards to the league averages for draft success by round? (I generally don't know, but I suspect if we were producing less NHLers with our picks than the league average it would be something the analytics folks would be talking about).


Lets just look at the first 3 rounds though of his drafting since he took over in 2014:

2014

1st Round: 13th Vrana
2nd Round: 39th Vanecek
3rd Round: 89th Walker

All 3 are NHL level talent, none are still with the club. We could probably spin our wheels all day talking about this class, but I think overall it would be a decent class.

2015
1st Round: 22 Samsonov
2nd Round: 57 Siegenthaler
3rd Round: No Pick

Probably another exampler of "potential not realized" Hard to predict Sammy would be what ever he is, seems like even the rest of the league still saw potential in him even as recently as when we released him, but undoubtedly that's a miss for us. Sieg's was good talent, he is a casualty of other bad roster management (Chara being brought in)

2016

1st Round: 28 Johansen
2nd: No Pick
3rd: 87 Pilon

No other way to cut it, this was a bad draft for us. Not a single NHL player to show for the first three rounds

2017
No picks in the first three rounds because of trades (Shattenkirk, Eller, Weber). Clearly the result of recognizing a window and pushing the chips in, but that evaluation of NHL talent wasn't spot on. Again, it's a different discussion, but I think that 2017 roster was maybe the best we ever assembled we just couldn't get past Pitt. That said, you'd be hard pressed to really make an argument that Weber or Shattenkirk played much of a role in making that roster dangerous.


2018

1st: 31 Alexeyev
2nd: 47 Clark
3rd: 93 Sutter

Jury is still out on Alexeyev but he's shown potential, those next too are some pretty glaring misses though. Not a great draft for us, that said, at a glance this draft looks extremely weak in general talent. Not a single team found an all-star outside the first round.


2019

1st: 25 McMichael
2nd: 56 Leason
3rd: 91 Protas

Excellent draft for us, all later in the round picks, but all three have already shown they're NHL level players and figure into the future plans for the franchise.


2020
1st 22 Lapierre
2nd: No Pick
3rd. No Pick

We did a bunch of pick swapping here in regards to moving guys out and also TDL acquisitions. Of the three picks we had in our possession at some point that we then traded, not a single one has played NHL minutes. Is that an indictment more on the drafting of those other teams? Maybe, but this is looking like a pretty weak class too.


2021
1st No Pick
2nd 55 Iorio
3rd 80 Johnson

Hard to evaluate at this point, the club seems pretty high on Iorio's future so I do see him becoming an NHLer for someone at some point. Brent Johnson still seems like a project, but some d-men do take a while.

2022

1st: 20 Miroshnichenko
2nd: Suzdalev
3rd: No Pick

Miro is still TBD but the club obviously sees him in a top 6 role in the next few years. The second and third round picks were spent in an effort to do some cap management. I will say this draft is looking weird already, Miro still has the potential to be one of the better players taken, no one has really stepped up yet. Also Suz seems to have a lot of buzz, this class could be interesting.


2023
1st 8 Leonard
2nd 40 Cristall
3rd No pick

Obviously impossible to tell at the moment, but signs are point to this being a really good draft for us. Both Leonard and Cristall are tearing it up in their respective leagues, I suspect both will get a pretty good look next year before going to Hershey (Leonard making the team next year would not shock me).




So there we have it, I probably missed some picks because I did this pretty imprecisely, but I do think it shows our drafting isn't terrible, but it's not great either. I think it's trended upward in the last few years, as one would hope as you move further down in draft order, and I think that's the key. Our picks late in the round are hit or miss, but you should see less of that the further you get into the lottery. It'll be concerning if we start seeing major misses as a lottery team.

I'm not even sure this list gets a team to 'mediocre' ranking. A third liner Protas, a 2nd pair D in Fehervary.

This team could have completely skipped the 3 drafts from 2015 to 2017 and it wouldn't make one bit of difference to the past, present or future success. Things didn't get much better after 2017, either.
 
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It’s telling that the Stanley Cup champions and GMGM have the two best not build from within of players additions of the last 3 or 4 seasons. They were always up against the cap as well, and made these moves work. A #1 center and #1 D are suppose to be impossible to find.
 
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I wonder if GMBM could do any flip for Kappo.

As an aside, hilarious to me to see how every Lavi apologist was saying how he'd get it right with the Rags young kids and the most promising one is on the trade block now 40 games later.
 
we suck at drafting and are even worse at developing, we had a great chance to draft a high end forward last year and totally blundered, at least Cristall was a nice consolation (miro in 2022 is our best pick in a long while and it was because he fell into our lap)
 
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NYR are winning the division. Are we really looking for little snipey "victories" against Lavi about roster management still?

edit: Lafreniere is the same age as KK and doing well. Lavi hating on him due to age?
 
I wonder if GMBM could do any flip for Kappo.

As an aside, hilarious to me to see how every Lavi apologist was saying how he'd get it right with the Rags young kids and the most promising one is on the trade block now 40 games later.

I dont identify as ”Lavi apologist”, but i also dont get the hate for him. He seems like a cool hockey guy and it just didnt work out with us, happens. No need to be sour.

Whatever, he wasnt brought here to develope youngsters and he wasnt brought to New York to do that either. So why should he be judged on developing youngsters. He lost the room here and thats on him, although it seems to be a pretty hard room to win over. But for today I thought Rags was doing pretty good so weird time to go after him.

As for the drafting discussion.. as some have mentioned its not only about what we got away with from the drafts. Look at the draft class and look where we picked. Maybe we could have done a little better with a pick here or there, and theres always that one guy you missed (like Cristall will hopefully be for many teams), but overally we could have done a lot worse. They dont have big homeruns yet, but they are making the picks count.

To add, whatever with the draft. Id rather trade picks for proven youngish NHL players. the picks are so vastly overvalued. If you can get handful of prime years and especially when from a potential top of the lineup player with a late first and maybe a random add, just take it.
 
I think the beginning of the TDL deals have started with the CAL/VAN trade. I thought the return for Lindholm was pretty good and I hope we can get similar results. The potential names I see in play are Jensen, TVR, Dowd, Mantha, Edmundson, and Pacioretty. Do you think GMBM will wait until the TDL or will he start making moves early? Is it better to jump in early when there are more teams in the hunt looking to add?
 
But I do wonder if ownership won't be in MacLellan's ear to be particularly aggressive seeing to it that the chase to 895 isn't slipping away. I don't doubt they initiate some bold action next off-season in an attempt to keep that pursuit intact, even if it lengthens an eventual rebuild. And that may not be the wrong call given the likely immensity of that task when the time comes.
You misspelled “Bataan death march to 895.”

That there is a credible chance that ownership would decide to prioritize artificially propping up a 39 year old’s inorganic pursuit of 895 after seeing what we’ve seen this year (both the good and the bad, er, I mean the old) tells us a lot of what we need to know about how we got here.
 
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I think the beginning of the TDL deals have started with the CAL/VAN trade. I thought the return for Lindholm was pretty good and I hope we can get similar results. The potential names I see in play are Jensen, TVR, Dowd, Mantha, Edmundson, and Pacioretty. Do you think GMBM will wait until the TDL or will he start making moves early? Is it better to jump in early when there are more teams in the hunt looking to add?

Hopefully, but I think mgmt still (in their minds) have a glimmer of hope. So, they may wait another 5 or so games to see how things shake out. Does anyone actually think they're even going to get the WC2 spot at this point? I don't, and their schedule is about to get much harder then its been leading up to this point.
 
Any Playoffs hopes could be dusted pretty quickly after the break.

First game is Habs but after that it's 3 games in 4 days... @ Panthers , @ Bruins and vs. Canucks. The game after that is... Avs. Jeeesh.
 
Any Playoffs hopes could be dusted pretty quickly after the break.

First game is Habs but after that it's 3 games in 4 days... @ Panthers , @ Bruins and vs. Canucks. The game after that is... Avs. Jeeesh.
Absolutely brutal stretch, but honestly, at the best time. It’s win or sell. There are no half measures.

But regardless, in no way should we be buyers. The only changes should come from within.

And honestly, enough with AA. Either play him every game, or move him right now.
 
They are still going to have to take some players back in most of the trades they make if they do sell off. The majority of the team has contracts that are up in the next two offseasons.
 
we suck at drafting and are even worse at developing, we had a great chance to draft a high end forward last year and totally blundered, at least Cristall was a nice consolation (miro in 2022 is our best pick in a long while and it was because he fell into our lap)
I'm not sure I follow, who did we miss on last year? Leonard is looking (so far) like excellent value, I wouldn't be shocked if (assuming he comes out of college) he gets a genuine roster look next year at the beginning of the season.


I also think the point is to not look at it in a vacuum, but to in relativity to other teams. You're going to have misses, and you're going to have success stories. Is there any actual data supporting we miss more often than most clubs? It's hard to actually quantify it because your chance of success increases significantly the higher you draft and for the last decade we've been drafting in the later parts of the the rounds.

I guess a better question would be, what teams who have had similar drafting positioning as us do we feel have been better?
 
Hopefully, but I think mgmt still (in their minds) have a glimmer of hope. So, they may wait another 5 or so games to see how things shake out. Does anyone actually think they're even going to get the WC2 spot at this point? I don't, and their schedule is about to get much harder then its been leading up to this point.
Nah, I think they're playing their cards close to their vest to drive up value. You're less likely to get low ball offers for someone on an expiring UFA like Mantha if you're still giving the guise of "we're still see value in holding onto him and making a push" than just openly shopping him. The decisions made at last years TDL make it pretty clear to me that GMBM understands this team needs to grab assets for expiring UFAs with value. I think if they were delusional/sentimental you would've seen them hold Orlov and try to talk him down in his numbers. I think getting burn on this Backstrom deal has probably realigned this front office in terms of needing to be cut throat with contracts.

Although, I would love to know what the internal discussions and feelings about that Backstrom deal were/are, and if there was ever any dissent/hesitation and how much ownership played a role.
 
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I'm not sure I follow, who did we miss on last year? Leonard is looking (so far) like excellent value, I wouldn't be shocked if (assuming he comes out of college) he gets a genuine roster look next year at the beginning of the season.


I also think the point is to not look at it in a vacuum, but to in relativity to other teams. You're going to have misses, and you're going to have success stories. Is there any actual data supporting we miss more often than most clubs? It's hard to actually quantify it because your chance of success increases significantly the higher you draft and for the last decade we've been drafting in the later parts of the the rounds.

I guess a better question would be, what teams who have had similar drafting positioning as us do we feel have been better?
I think they are one of the people stuck on Benson. They've also called Leonard a grinder, or a 4th liner, i don't remember exactly I just remember they were talking shit.

Talking about a draft that happened less than 12 months ago as a success or a failure is a pointless exercise. It is still a mystery.
 
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I think they are one of the people stuck on Benson. They've also called Leonard a grinder, or a 4th liner, i don't remember exactly I just remember they were talking shit.

Talking about a draft that happened less than 12 months ago as a success or a failure is a pointless exercise. It is still a mystery.
I remember similar being said about 43
 
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I think my biggest problem with GMBM/Leonsis/whoever is in charge is that they aren't really committed to a direction or vision. Last TDL they sold Orlov and Hathaway and then flipped that first round pick for Sandin. That's definitely a retooling move.

But then they didn't really follow that up with any retooling moves. They re-signed a bunch of guys past their primes instead of trading them, traded for an old terrible defenseman, and got Pacioretty off the scrap heap. I guess if they trade all of these guys at the TDL or this offseason then it could still be ok, but right now it seems like they don't actually know what direction they want to go.
 
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