Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2022-23 Season Part 3: Drop the puck!

[CapitalsCupReality]

Do we have any examples of recent teams who missed the playoffs, then tore things down by shedding multiple pieces of their CORE (top 5-6 players) and then instantly went back to being a playoff qualifyer?

 

[twabby]

Do we have any examples of recent teams who missed the playoffs, then tore things down by shedding multiple pieces of their CORE (top 5-6 players) and then instantly went back to being a playoff qualifyer?

Tampa Bay traded Martin St. Louis in 2014 and bought out Vincent Lecavalier in 2013. They were in the SCF in 2015.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Tampa Bay traded St. Louis in 2014 and bought out Lecavalier in 2013. They were in the SCF in 2015.

That’s not what folks are looking to do…..trade one guy…

who has moved on from shedding 2-3+ CORE players at around the same time, and gone from a playoff non-qualifier and immediately bounced back to a playoff contender for the next few years?

That’s what is being suggested here…..and I’m not sure the mini-rebuild feat into a playoff team is doable in short time.

 

[Carlzner]

That’s not what folks are looking to do…..trade one guy…

who has moved on from shedding 2-3+ CORE players and gone from a playoff non-qualifier and immediately bounced back to a playoff contender for the next few years?

You’re responding to a post listing 2 core players…

 

[twabby]

That’s not what folks are looking to do…..trade one guy…

who has moved on from shedding 2-3+ CORE players and gone from a playoff non-qualifier and immediately bounced back to a playoff contender for the next few years?

How were Lecavalier and St. Louis not core players to Tampa Bay? They're the two biggest names of the pre-Cooper era Lightning.

After trading those two TB went: SCF, ECF, miss, ECF, 1st round, Cup, Cup, SCF. I'd take that string of success as a Caps fan!

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

You’re responding to a post listing 2 core players…

not all done on one short trade deadline/off-season window…..

How were Lecavalier and St. Louis not core players to Tampa Bay? They're the two biggest names of the the pre-Cooper era Lightning.

Do we draft as well as Tampa? not close…..

Besides shedding 2 guys far apart (June 2013) and (March 2014)……..isn’t what’s being suggested here.

Who has shifted 2-3+ core guys (plus more non core) and rebuilt into a playoff contender the NEXT season.

THIS is the pipe-dream you’re selling….that they can immediately rebuild into a contender again. I can’t think of any team who did it in that short of time. Especially with the potential amount of roster turnover which some of you want……a large if not complete purge of UFAs, and some core players also……Which is why I ask.

 

[Misery74]

We should just be trading UFAs right now, and Mantha if we are lucky.

If we are trading core players, the offseason is the best time for that.

We need to start with the easy stuff:

Fire Laviolette
Promote Nelson to Interim
Move all UFAs before the deadline
Reassess

 

[Brian23]

Well, when those core players aren't actually core level players anymore, does it matter? Like, this makes zero sense.

Do we draft as well as Tampa?

 

[twabby]

not all done on one short trade deadline window…..


Do we draft as well as Tampa? not close…..

Besides shedding 2 guys far apart (June 2013) and (March 2014)……..isn’t what’s being suggested here.

Draft better?

No one's suggesting it'll be easy to return to contender status, but it's necessary to shed dead weight like Kuznetsov, Oshie, and yes probably even Backstrom. Unless we're content just letting Ovechkin play on some bad teams for the rest of his career.

Right now they're far below the puncher's chance team that some people are content with. I can't imagine anyone is happy with that.

 

[Brian23]

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Well, when those core players aren't actually core level players anymore, does it matter? Like, this makes zero sense.

Acknowledgment accepted.

 

[Brian23]

Acknowledgment accepted.

There's no acknowledgement, I don't understand how you've spent all year appealing to the authority of the coaches on the quality of our drafted players and still do so after it's been shown that they're awful at it.

You keep harping on poor drafts, which is just flat out wrong. And even now, you're talking about trading core players (who suck, so why does it matter) as some crazy thing. Like, it makes literally no sense. It just seems like an insane level of cognitive dissonance.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Draft better?

No one's suggesting it'll be easy to return to contender status, but it's necessary to shed dead weight like Kuznetsov, Oshie, and yes probably even Backstrom. Unless we're content just letting Ovechkin play on some bad teams for the rest of his career.

Right now they're far below the puncher's chance team that some people are content with. I can't imagine anyone is happy with that.

Wait you’re changing now and we’re going to sell off and miss the playoffs again after all these trades and purging? What happened to your plan of supporting Ovechkin?

Might as well ask him to quit too If this is just a long tear down rebuild process starting now.

There's no acknowledgement, I don't understand how you've spent all year appealing to the authority of the coaches on the quality of our drafted players and still do so after it's been shown that they're awful at it.

You keep harping on poor drafts, which is just flat out wrong. And even now, you're talking about trading core players (who suck, so why does it matter) as some crazy thing. Like, it makes literally no sense.

blah blah blah…..talk more hockey less nonsense about appeals to authority…..show me a plan to rebuild into a playoff team NEXT year.

 

[twabby]

Wait you’re changing now and we’re going to sell off and miss the playoffs again after all these trades and purging? What happened to your plan of supporting Ovechkin?

Might as well ask him to quit too If this is just a long tear down rebuild process starting now.

No, as mentioned earlier the plan is to quickly turn it around with assets acquired from the selloff this TDL along with other assets they currently have. In my mind they would plan to be competitive again at the latest by the 24-25 season. Perhaps they can even return to being competitive next year if things align correctly (Bedard!)

Do you think they have any hope this season?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

No, as mentioned earlier the plan is to quickly turn it around with assets acquired from the selloff this TDL along with other assets they currently have. In my mind they would plan to be competitive again at the latest by the 24-25 season. Perhaps they can even return to being competitive next year if this align correctly.

Do you think they have any hope this season?

So you’re telling Ovechkin he should leave now…..24-25…..lol….of course this season is lost.

 

[Brian23]

blah blah blah…..talk hockey.

This is talking hockey. Like, what. I can't talk hockey with you if you don't have a coherent thought process.

Like, screw the talk about drafting because I'm tired of the nonsensical appeals to authority at this point. You're fence sitting about trading "core players" and talking about getting back to Stanley Cup contention and I'm saying that even the base assumptions of that are wrong. The these guys are core players is entirely based on their history to the team and not the quality or level of play they're bringing now. Would you be so hesitant if we were trading 3 Marcus Johanssons from the roster? Because the real Mojo is probably bringing more value then moving the "core" pieces you're huffing and puffing about.

And beyond that, the only players that are being talked about being unloaded that are actual prize pieces are Jensen or Orlov. They've been reportedly far apart on Orlov for weeks now, those "core pieces" are walking at this rate no matter what. Should we just get nothing for them? Jensen is going to be 33 by the start of next season and is going to want the bag, is it worth spending big money on an already old roster?

Like, come on.

 

[twabby]

So you’re telling Ovechkin he should leave now…..24-25…..lol….of course this season is lost.

Of course he would need to be onboard with the plan, but I would hope he'd see the trajectory of the team and agree that something drastic needs to happen.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think they should do this TDL and offseason. Name some names you think should stay or go.

 

[Langway]

You're not defying time when your best two-way forward is Nic Dowd and you only have one goal-scorer. Sorry. They're done for the foreseeable future. How they address either of those deficits any time soon is anyone's guess, particularly at a time when they can ill-afford not to invest in a quality blueline. It's not like they haven't invested in those forward positions: Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Eller (even if expiring), now Strome, Mantha, Wilson, Oshie.

Carlson's absence has been huge. Make no mistake. But other teams will continue to improve and Washington is only likely to decline further as-is given the lack of obvious internal developing solutions. Buffalo & Ottawa aren't going anywhere. Ottawa has been without Josh Norris for all but eight games. Florida will have some cap flexibility to be deeper. The younger, developing cornerstone pieces the Caps need unavoidably will take time via the draft and we'll see if they've got the patience for the task. It sure doesn't seem like it unless forced into it. Maybe an off-season coaching change better aligns them toward IQ/development over sheer mindless hustle but MacLellan has also had issues being on the same page with every coach he's had. At some point it's a GM issue, not a coaching issue. That suspect alignment along with the potential for ownership influence makes their road back to contention littered with issues. What should be obvious seems like a last resort and you wonder when they'll finally be forced to admit this group no longer has it in them. I'm guessing in full it takes another season and potentially another unintentional tank sort of season.

Even if they sell all of their pending UFAs it's hard to see what comes next. Are they now prepared to move a core piece or two? Is the market there to do so without taking back another team's sludge? Can they afford to potentially downgrade defensively at a time when the forward group on the books is so poor? There are way more questions than answers. It's hard to have any expectation they're going to be more sorted out in the near-term...nor that they have the perspective and patience to be sufficiently disciplined over a longer period (resisting convenient albeit substandard fixes). When healthy and on their absolute best behavior they can make it work. They battle through it and find a way. But when they struggle--and increasingly the game isn't easy for them--you wonder if they're able to reel it back in. It won't take very many heavy lifter losses without adequate replacement for this team to be essentially non-competitive. The outlines are already there.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

This is talking hockey. Like, what. I can't talk hockey with you if you don't have a coherent thought process.

Like, screw the talk about drafting because I'm tired of the nonsensical appeals to authority at this point. You're fence sitting about trading "core players" and talking about getting back to Stanley Cup contention and I'm saying that even the base assumptions of that are wrong. The these guys are core players is entirely based on their history to the team and not the quality or level of play they're bringing now. Would you be so hesitant if we were trading 3 Marcus Johanssons from the roster? Because the real Mojo is probably bringing more value then moving the "core" pieces you're huffing and puffing about.

And beyond that, the only players that are being talked about being unloaded that are actual prize pieces are Jensen or Orlov. They've been reportedly far apart on Orlov for weeks now, those "core pieces" are walking at this rate no matter what. Should we just get nothing for them? Jensen is going to be 33 by the start of next season and is going to want the bag, is it worth spending big money on an already old roster?

Like, come on.

You smatter a few hockey words with pettiness and insults….so whatever Francis, two can play.

And please don’t tell me what I think or where I sit on trading anyone ….nobody needs your weak hockey mansplaining.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Of course he would need to be onboard with the plan, but I would hope he'd see the trajectory of the team and agree that something drastic needs to happen.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think they should do this TDL and offseason. Name some names you think should stay or go.

Way too many unknowns to make a solid plan as a fan IMO. But….lemme think on it and I’ll post something. Ovechkin is not buying into a big rebuild while he’s here IMO.

 

[Empty Goal Net]

Does anyone on these boards really believe the Capitals are, or have recently been, contenders? Nostalgia is great, but will not win any games. Caps need to shed salary and move guys they do not expect or want to re-sign - whether or not they are "core" (whatever that is) - if they expect to compete in Ovie's remaining contracted seasons.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Does anyone on these boards really believe the Capitals are, or have recently been, contenders? Nostalgia is great, but will not win any games. Caps need to shed salary and move guys they do not expect or want to re-sign - whether or not they are "core" (whatever that is) - if they expect to compete in Ovie's remaining contracted seasons.

Playoff team is what we strive for….”contender” is too vague, too loosely tossed around in the NHL. The postseason graveyards are littered with “contenders“ every year.

 

[Calicaps]

Way too many unknowns to make a solid plan as a fan IMO. But….lemme think on it and I’ll post something. Ovechkin is not buying into a big rebuild while he’s here IMO.

He's straight said he's not interested in a rebuild. So ya, it's Ovie or the tank. Folks can't have both.

 

[shtorm2005]

I think maybe you’re misunderstanding what a lot of people are advocating for. We’re not advocating to tear it down and suck. We are advocating to make bold moves to acquire players or assets that can be used to make the team better next season and the season after that.

I doubt we are getting better players for what we offer. Especially when they are underperforming which lowers their value. Caps can get mainly picks or prospects. That won't make them better next year and the year after.

Maybe some of you want to trade UFA and core players for picks and sign better UFA this summer, but don't forget, they all are overpriced and you are really in danger to degrade even more next season.

With Backstrom we just stuck, it was a cost of having two great players over two decades.

 

[itsjustsurvival]

Does anyone on these boards really believe the Capitals are, or have recently been, contenders? Nostalgia is great, but will not win any games. Caps need to shed salary and move guys they do not expect or want to re-sign - whether or not they are "core" (whatever that is) - if they expect to compete in Ovie's remaining contracted seasons.

I think prior to this year, they weren't true top contenders but had a chance to get deep into the playoffs if things broke the right way. This year and as constructed, they don't have a remote chance of winning a series.

It's pretty clear they lack the elite talent needed to be considered a contender though. I'm not necessarily in the camp of total rebuild, but they do need make significant changes to their roster.

Others mentioned how St. Louis was in on Meier. While their situation is a bit different by having young star players to build around (Thomas/ Kyrou), the Capitals should also look into obtaining skilled players who are entering or are in their prime. And hope at least 2 or 3 of their prospects develop into top six F/top 4 D...


Edit: Regarding older players on the roster, I'm optimistic Wilson and Backstrom will continue to improve as they get more games. I'm less convinced on Oshie's health. Worried about Carlson as well.