Post-Game Talk: Caps claim SE. Jets lose 5-3.

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buggs

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both of those are UFA's. I would be absolutely shocked if we resigned mittens. Antro, not so much. But Mittens? yes.

at the end of the day, jump through whatever logic you want, but pavs puts up worse numbers then other "average" goalies on worse teams.

he is also one player.

one player in the most important position.

a position that also would then statistically have the most ready available replacements (given that their are only 60 jobs, its most likely capable replacements are being unused)

I don't know how you can possibly argue that replacing pavelec with a better goalie would not be the biggest upgrade possible by only changing one player.

I guess you argue against it by suggesting that a legit second line player to help out Kane would make as much of a difference in terms of providing secondary scoring that we so lacked. No question LLW beasted, especially towards the end, but maybe having another line potting goals as a serious offensive threat makes more of a difference than replacing Pavelec.

But that is a gamble either way you go. We thought we had a 60 point man to play with Kane in Olli. Didn't work out that way. Maybe we go out and grab Bernier or someone similar but resign Hainsey and see as many goals go in on Bernier off Hainsey's arse as we did with Pavelec?

I'm not arguing that Pavelec doesn't need a push or, ultimately, a replacement, if he doesn't improve to around .915 or so. But I see the points about the lack of defensive help as being legit. Yep, there are lesser defensemen playing in front of better goalies and those teams are doing better, but I think you need to look up and down the whole team and you'll find there aren't a lot of goalies carrying teams during the regular season. You need to have more depth in scoring than we currently do. If you field LLW and Kane plus some legit linemates that can score, I think the soft goals become less significant. Still in need of fixing, but less significant.

But who do you grab to replace Pavelec? Can we afford to pay a Bernier and Pavelec at his current salary? Will anyone take Pavs at his current salary? Looking at last year's situation while I'd agree we overpaid Pavs, what were the other realistic options available at the time?

While I'm asking random questions what is the Jets philosophy on playing goalies? I know Pavs 'likes' to play lots of games but is that in line with what management wants? Do they really want a 1A/1B setup or are they happy with a 1A and a guy that they're really reluctant to play as it seemed to be this year? Even with Mason last year it seemed more like a 1A and oh crap Pavs is exhausted lets give him a game off and play Mason for one type of situation.
 

RonJon

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To put this loss on Pav's is like a horse wearing blinders. See only what you want to see. The fact is only one of the 4 goals can be placed on his shoulders. The other 3 and to a certain extent even the first stinker can be pinned directly on the team in front of him. Is he perfect no is he average yes but was he the best goalie on the ice last night.....by a country mile.
 

Hank Chinaski

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Just to stick up for Wheels here a bit, cause everyone is ragging on him...

2 things

1) I was always taught by coaches to celebrate anything that's close. If a ref sees a team celebrating, he is expecting to call a goal, and if you don't celebrate anything at all sometimes you get screwed by stuff they don't see.

2) This gif is pretty much from Wheeler's angle. Isn't there a point where it already looks totally and unquestionably in? If you've ALREADY SEEN IT cross the line, why would you jam it in? Next time wheels goes bar down and the puck stops barely across the line, should he reach in and slam it into the netting at the back? No. From his perspective, it was already completely and unquestionably a goal, why would he need to be an ass and reach in there and slam it?

Ease up on him, it's unfortunate, but it's hardly a huge lapse, in context it makes a great deal of sense that he did what he did.

Good points and I agree to an extent, but ideally you want players to have the mentality of not giving up until you hear the whistle. His mentality should've been to drive the net hard and make sure he slammed it home.
 

koth

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Yeah, I'm going to miss the Eastern Conference next season too. I've been watching the West all my life, and it was nice to have regular change of teams.

But it will be fun to see them develop rivalries with our regular conference now. I'm looking forward to playing Minnesota on a regular basis as the old Jets never played the Wild, so it's like a new team.
 

cbcwpg

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You want something to blame... Blame the entire team, and blame them from weeks ago. That's when we blew it. The Jets let the Caps walk into the MTS Centre and got their butts handed to them. That's when we lost the playoffs... Not last night.

We should have had 4 more points and the Caps should have had 4 less. That was when the playoffs died.
 

King Woodballs

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You want something to blame... Blame the entire team, and blame them from weeks ago. That's when we blew it. The Jets let the Caps walk into the MTS Centre and got their butts handed to them. That's when we lost the playoffs... Not last night.

We should have had 4 more points and the Caps should have had 4 less. That was when the playoffs died.


^Truth

Not one person gets the blame... all 23(ish) players on this roster get blame.
As well as the coaching staff and management.

They all share it as far as I am concerned.

Yeah pav makes a couple saves get a couple extra points sure.
if burmistrov actually puts a couple pucks in the net they get a couple points
if kane doesnt take a couple stupid and lazy penalties in the offensive zone they get a couple extra points.
if Jokinen actually does anything maybe the Jets get a couple points.
and so on and so on
 

koth

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You want something to blame... Blame the entire team, and blame them from weeks ago. That's when we blew it. The Jets let the Caps walk into the MTS Centre and got their butts handed to them. That's when we lost the playoffs... Not last night.

We should have had 4 more points and the Caps should have had 4 less. That was when the playoffs died.

Those two games and the game last night were the most important of the season. The last 6 games that we won weren't as important as the three that we lost against Washington.

But in the end we were in a playoff race with a really good team that shouldn't have been where they were. Washington got off to a terrible start that put them behind us. They should have been in the front from the start. Oh well.
 
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winterpeg

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To put this loss on Pav's is like a horse wearing blinders. See only what you want to see. The fact is only one of the 4 goals can be placed on his shoulders. The other 3 and to a certain extent even the first stinker can be pinned directly on the team in front of him. Is he perfect no is he average yes but was he the best goalie on the ice last night.....by a country mile.

I'm not suggesting he was the reason why we lost. Not that game. Though that first goal was just bad.

I do believe that changing the goalie is the one single change that would by far have the most significance in making sure we're clinched with 2 games left next season, however, instead of holding on to a thread. And that's why I'm participating in the discussion.
 

Guerzy

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You want something to blame... Blame the entire team, and blame them from weeks ago. That's when we blew it. The Jets let the Caps walk into the MTS Centre and got their butts handed to them. That's when we lost the playoffs... Not last night.

We should have had 4 more points and the Caps should have had 4 less. That was when the playoffs died.

Pretty well, yep. That skid we went on there really hurt us.
 

peg

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A 2 year, 3 million dollar contract for Eric Fehr from the Washington Capitals.

Good on him. Really a shame he was hampered by his shoulder injury last year. Would have liked to see Eric stay with the Jets.
 

ps241

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hello from the east. last night had to be expected. winning both ends of a back to back on the road is always hard. harder when the home team is rested. that was going to be a tough game to win from the beginning. the jets tied the game and gave the caps a chance to collapse. they didnt, but they could have.

to be that close to the playoffs and wish your team had sold at the deadline because now the team finishes 9th is just silly. i can look at the capitals and see player selected after that draft position. mike green and john carlson for starters.

i think you should be proud of your team for making a great run at it with the compressed schedule and playing in the southeast making it harder on them than any team in the league.

enjoy the west next season!

100% agreed with the bolded statement. We had one chip to move of any value which was Hainsey (Antro was injured) and nobody on here knows what value he would have fetched? Considering Toby and Bogo got injured down the stretch it appears to have been the correct choice depending on your opinion on Ron.

Ok so just because a player is a pending UFA teams should dump them? Washington Riberio, Montreal Ryder, Islanders Boyes and Streit, Devils Elias, Columbus Prospal, Toronto Bozak, The Wild Cullen, Detroit Brunner, Boston Horton......the list goes on and on of teams that did not flip at the deadline..... so I guess all these GM's were not maximizing asset value either? Dallas appears to be the only bubble team who took the path of selling at the deadline Roy, Morrow, and Jagr......other than that everyone stood pat or seemed to be buyers. We didn't go out and sell off Trouba for Erat....or didn't give up key draft picks for Iggy, Roy, Morrow, Jagr.....we were not buyers and that pi55ed off some posters as well....(damned if you do damned if you don't).

Come on guys......we stood pat and had a great run and came up an inch short despite the fact the three teams we have been chasing have gone 24-3-3 collectively in the past 10 games. There is a time to move assets at the deadline if you can (hello Calgary) and there is a time to load up (hello Pittsburgh) and there are other times that it makes sense to play it out as is. Winnipeg was in a good spot to take a run at the playoffs and we have taken a great cut at it. It's not all about next year and you have to find a balance between today and tomorrow.

As far as tanking and how bad getting this close is I say rubbish. Go to NHL.com and have a look, we were never going to finish in the bottom 7 teams (Calgary currently in 7th with almost 10 points less than us). That means we were going to fall between picks 8 to 14 if we missed the playoffs and if you talk to some of our draft wizards they will make the case there is very little difference between the value of picks in this range historically (right Holden ;)).This upcoming draft we will be getting a shot at a very nice asset in the first round (Yea it's not going to be one of the top 6 but it never was going to be this year). On top of that we will have 6 prospects chosen by time the 3rd round is done remember we only had 2 picks taken in 2011 in the first 3 rounds and for those of you that forget we got Lowry in the 3rd round in 2011 ;).

I applaud Chevy and company for finding the right balance (buyer or seller), standing pat, and rewarding our team by giving them their shot at making the post season.........it was (is) a hell of a run and we are loaded with picks in the top 90 in this year's draft so hopefully we fill the cupboards.
 
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Grind

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I guess you argue against it by suggesting that a legit second line player to help out Kane would make as much of a difference in terms of providing secondary scoring that we so lacked. No question LLW beasted, especially towards the end, but maybe having another line potting goals as a serious offensive threat makes more of a difference than replacing Pavelec.

But that is a gamble either way you go. We thought we had a 60 point man to play with Kane in Olli. Didn't work out that way. Maybe we go out and grab Bernier or someone similar but resign Hainsey and see as many goals go in on Bernier off Hainsey's arse as we did with Pavelec?

I'm not arguing that Pavelec doesn't need a push or, ultimately, a replacement, if he doesn't improve to around .915 or so. But I see the points about the lack of defensive help as being legit. Yep, there are lesser defensemen playing in front of better goalies and those teams are doing better, but I think you need to look up and down the whole team and you'll find there aren't a lot of goalies carrying teams during the regular season. You need to have more depth in scoring than we currently do. If you field LLW and Kane plus some legit linemates that can score, I think the soft goals become less significant. Still in need of fixing, but less significant.

But who do you grab to replace Pavelec? Can we afford to pay a Bernier and Pavelec at his current salary? Will anyone take Pavs at his current salary? Looking at last year's situation while I'd agree we overpaid Pavs, what were the other realistic options available at the time?

While I'm asking random questions what is the Jets philosophy on playing goalies? I know Pavs 'likes' to play lots of games but is that in line with what management wants? Do they really want a 1A/1B setup or are they happy with a 1A and a guy that they're really reluctant to play as it seemed to be this year? Even with Mason last year it seemed more like a 1A and oh crap Pavs is exhausted lets give him a game off and play Mason for one type of situation.


I just want to be clear i'm not blaming pav's for the loss. I'm not saying it's only because of him.

Just logically upgrading him would be the best upgrade. And a lot of it based around the point you made (we need to upgrade top six, but we tried to do that last year and it didn't work).

Lets assume the biggest things to upgrade on this team are our second line c/rw and our goalie.

for C/LW: we have below average players. Upgrading them is not surefire improvement, as their play is dependent on the system being played and working with their linemates (see Jokinen this year). We know this because we literally did this this year (Acquired Jokinen). It is also a position highly sought across the league, with more spaces then bodies.

all this means it will be

A)Expensive due to high demand

B)less likely to work (due to outside factors)

C) have no solid way of knowing if their will be an improvement or not (IE:the Jokinen effect)

D) Our "second line players" (wellwood, antro, jokinen) have Historically all produced pretty close to top 60 in their position points per/60 meanign they are only slightly below second line average, so it would take a larger improvement.

now we look at goal:

Pavelec is below average in every sense besides entertainment value. let me rephrase. In every "quantifiable" way, Pavelec is a below average starter, and its not exactly close. Goalies, as i have mentioned are also "on paper" easier to acquire.

Their performance is also largely independent of circumstances (despite what many posters here like to believe, the research HAS been done and the evidence says no, no team is bad enough defensively to ruin a goalies stats despite what you think. Parity across the league is too close. people can disagree, but their opinion is disagreeing with research, which essentially means your just shutting your eyes and screaming "i can't hear you, i can't hear you") and thus you can generally assume when you pick up a goalie who's had a career good save % it will continue, not fluctuate because he isn't as effected by "the system" as a forward may be.

so here you kind of end up with

A)Cheap due to low spots vs players (young potential/good starters move for second round picks. Almost every year some goalie signed out of a different league comes in and makes noise, etc)

B) Unaffected by outside factors

C) What you see is what you get (though a goalie whose had a succesfull career may dip, rarely it is never sustained "due to the team")

D)We don't need to acquire an above average one for an improvement. The difference between pavelec and an average starter is bigger then the difference between most of our 2nd line guys and an "average" second liner.


that's just my logic.

And this got really long winded.

In general, i mostly agree with your statements, i just don't get how after two seasons here, and only one real good one prior, so many people are so tied to Pavelec.

he is statistically a bad goalie.

that cannot be argued.

I have yet to see an example of a statistically bad goalie who was considered great/above average during his career.
 

Saitama

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This is tracked/calculated, and that's totally incorrect.

If you think the reason his save % is so far below league average is that our defense is SO bad that it's dragging him down all that way, explain miller in Buffalo or Dubnyk in Edmonton. Is Dubnyk a top 2 goalie in the league to have a Sv% like that on that team?

Save of the year saves are only made when a goalie is out of position. The perfect goalie would never make any of those because he would always simply be in the right spot, and would be able to calmly react. No goalie is capable of doing that obviously, but Lundquist makes less 'crazy highlight reel saves' than Pavelec does, and given the choice I'd take Henrik in net 17 times out of 10.

"Save of the Year"s are a result of athleticism to save something that gets out of hand, and that technique can no longer take care of, not brilliant talent. Don't get me wrong, I smile when he makes them, but there are a few too many.

I should have said, "one of the reasons he has to make those saves", as if you look back a few pages I said that Pavs playing out of position drives me crazy. However, his defensive help is putrid. Sure, there are goalies on bad teams with a better % than he has, but how can you watch him get hung out to dry so many times by Hainsey alone and still lay it all on him? Like I said before, our defense does not challenge the opposition. They stay back and let them have all day to make those passes. That right there might be the difference between Dubnyks % and Pavs %, I say might because I don't watch Edmonton play, so I don't know for sure, but I do know that they need to change the the system.
 

seasontixholder*

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A 2 year, 3 million dollar contract for Eric Fehr from the Washington Capitals.

Good on him. Really a shame he was hampered by his shoulder injury last year. Would have liked to see Eric stay with the Jets.

I'm glad he's gone. We have enough injury prone players. He'll be hurt again. He's been hurt a few times this year too.
 

castle

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Yup Thursday and Friday night back to back home losses vs Washington did us in

I know that the standard line is that it's 'no excuse'.... but to me, it was pretty well evident after the Jets actually had a rest that the schedule and travel really had a compounding negative effect on the team that caught up to them. The problem was exacerbated by the fact that the rest of the their main competition could take buses to their away games (I say that a bit facetiously... but only a bit), had their 4 day breaks earlier when the rest and practice could really help more, and only had to change time zones when they came to Winnipeg. After seeing the Jets play again with some rest, it really seemed like the schedule eventually wore them down.

Even last night. Back to back on the road against a two day rested team. That's not the ideal circumstances for a game of such magnitude.

The other big factor which doesn't seem to be brought up is the injuries to the 4th line. Slater, Wright, Peluso killed the team. You wouldn't think it should, but Noel pretty much refused to play the callups/Thorburn, and the 1st line, in combination with the schedule, was clearly spent.

I assume things will be different next year. I have high hopes, anyway. I'm not scared of the West the way some people assuem we should be. Are you scared of Colorado, Dallas, Nashville, Minnesota? Chicago is a kick ass team, but it's only one team.
 

Saitama

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I know that the standard line is that it's 'no excuse'.... but to me, it was pretty well evident after the Jets actually had a rest that the schedule and travel really had a compounding negative effect on the team that caught up to them. The problem was exacerbated by the fact that the rest of the their main competition could take buses to their away games (I say that a bit facetiously... but only a bit), had their 4 day breaks earlier when the rest and practice could really help more, and only had to change time zones when they came to Winnipeg. After seeing the Jets play again with some rest, it really seemed like the schedule eventually wore them down.

Even last night. Back to back on the road against a two day rested team. That's not the ideal circumstances for a game of such magnitude.

The other big factor which doesn't seem to be brought up is the injuries to the 4th line. Slater, Wright, Peluso killed the team. You wouldn't think it should, but Noel pretty much refused to play the callups/Thorburn, and the 1st line, in combination with the schedule, was clearly spent.

I assume things will be different next year. I have high hopes, anyway. I'm not scared of the West the way some people assuem we should be. Are you scared of Colorado, Dallas, Nashville, Minnesota? Chicago is a kick ass team, but it's only one team.

I'm not too scared of those teams, but I'm definitely not too thrilled about playing them either. I look at that list and the only team I'm even remotely interested in seeing is Chicago. I know it helps the team to move West, but damn do I hate it.
 

winterpeg

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I should have said, "one of the reasons he has to make those saves", as if you look back a few pages I said that Pavs playing out of position drives me crazy. However, his defensive help is putrid. Sure, there are goalies on bad teams with a better % than he has, but how can you watch him get hung out to dry so many times by Hainsey alone and still lay it all on him? Like I said before, our defense does not challenge the opposition. They stay back and let them have all day to make those passes. That right there might be the difference between Dubnyks % and Pavs %, I say might because I don't watch Edmonton play, so I don't know for sure, but I do know that they need to change the the system.

My other issue with this, is that we know, looking at our depth chart, with Bogo, Buff, Enstrom, Hainsey (regardless of what those who use him as a whipping boy like to say) and so many good looking newcommers, that we do NOT have the worst defense core in the league, but that argument suggests that we'd pretty much have to.
 

winterpeg

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I assume things will be different next year. I have high hopes, anyway. I'm not scared of the West the way some people assuem we should be. Are you scared of Colorado, Dallas, Nashville, Minnesota? Chicago is a kick ass team, but it's only one team.

Yeah, actually our point total looks a lot better on that side of the league than it does on this side now.
 

txpd

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Ok so just because a player is a pending UFA teams should dump them? Washington Riberio, Montreal Ryder, Islanders Boyes and Streit,.

on the caps forum there are still numerous posters that wanted ribeiro traded at the deadline. they didnt want to make the playoffs saying they have no chance if they do.
 

txpd

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You want something to blame... Blame the entire team, and blame them from weeks ago. That's when we blew it. The Jets let the Caps walk into the MTS Centre and got their butts handed to them. That's when we lost the playoffs... Not last night.

We should have had 4 more points and the Caps should have had 4 less. That was when the playoffs died.

i would agree those two games were the critical games, but i would argue against the idea that the jets "allowed it".
 

Yukon Joe

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Yeah, I'm going to miss the Eastern Conference next season too. I've been watching the West all my life, and it was nice to have regular change of teams.

But it will be fun to see them develop rivalries with our regular conference now. I'm looking forward to playing Minnesota on a regular basis as the old Jets never played the Wild, so it's like a new team.

Yeah, it's been kind of fun having the Jets out east. All these regular games against Toronto and Montreal, the shock of SE teams having to come to cold and windy Winnipeg, and the early start times tht meant I often missed puck drop, but still was able to play with the kids once the game was over.

Being out West will have its advantages too - not least of which being I should be able to see them in person when they come to Alberta. But I will miss the eastern conference too.
 

sipowicz

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A 2 year, 3 million dollar contract for Eric Fehr from the Washington Capitals.

Good on him. Really a shame he was hampered by his shoulder injury last year. Would have liked to see Eric stay with the Jets.

Yeah me too!:sarcasm:

Aside from Pavs soft first goal pretty tough to put the loss on him, you could blame Wheeler for not making sure the goal actually crossed the goal line before you celebrate it.

Gutsy performance by the Jets despite missing key regulars, good game by Antro, he is a very effective player when he wants to be.
 

ps241

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on the caps forum there are still numerous posters that wanted ribeiro traded at the deadline. they didnt want to make the playoffs saying they have no chance if they do.

playing armchair GM makes the boards fun for all of us but your post provides a cautionary tail. Love him or hate him Ribs gives you guys an point producing 2nd line centre and very good PP asset. Right now Washington is red hot and their is no reason be beleive they are not one of the favorites to come out of the east.

What is the reaction on your board with the move to pick up Erat for Forsburg. I have to say that feels like a really steep price to pay and if the Jets would have dumped Trouba for Erat I would have lost it.
 

castle

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Yeah, it's been kind of fun having the Jets out east. ...

But I will miss the eastern conference too.

with the change... we actually have 32 games against the east. 28 against the old east. it's not all doom and gloom! :sarcasm:

if the league had tried to maintain the old system, we'd only have 18 against the east. that's quite the bump.
 
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