CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
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You just have to do a running rewatch of each episode lol…or at least a recap…
OT: Capitals Cinema Club: TV and Movies
- Thread starter hockeykicker
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Jags
Mildly Disturbed
I said all the same beats just way too fast. So I think the redemption arc would have continued into a thing with Brienne that would have lasted a bit. But that would have been the final piece, then he's the stay-at-home mom with the missing sword hand but a fulfilling relationship.
And whether it's because he gets bored or feels unworthy or useless or because he finally has to square it with Cersei, at some point they have to resolve their thing, and the best time to do it is when Cersei's empty life and conquests are falling apart around her.
Sorry, I never saw a happy ending for Jaime. He gets over wanting to be with Cersei because he's gotten over being a slave to his basest desires, but he still loves her are shares in her greatest losses (mostly their children).
All the same beats, way too fast. The Brienne thing was a blink when it could have been a season. That alone is robbery. That they turned it into a one-night, leave the money on the nightstand kind of thing was way wrong. But it hit the beat, acknowledged the bond and direction.
Given the limited time, I'd have kept him redeemed and maybe leave it there. Let them have an ending, leave Tyrion his brother. But I think they didn't have a happy plan for him, so they jumped from point to point like we said. Bleh.
And whether it's because he gets bored or feels unworthy or useless or because he finally has to square it with Cersei, at some point they have to resolve their thing, and the best time to do it is when Cersei's empty life and conquests are falling apart around her.
Sorry, I never saw a happy ending for Jaime. He gets over wanting to be with Cersei because he's gotten over being a slave to his basest desires, but he still loves her are shares in her greatest losses (mostly their children).
All the same beats, way too fast. The Brienne thing was a blink when it could have been a season. That alone is robbery. That they turned it into a one-night, leave the money on the nightstand kind of thing was way wrong. But it hit the beat, acknowledged the bond and direction.
Given the limited time, I'd have kept him redeemed and maybe leave it there. Let them have an ending, leave Tyrion his brother. But I think they didn't have a happy plan for him, so they jumped from point to point like we said. Bleh.
They tipped Dany being a psycho early on. Hundreds of heads on pikes. Once she woke up nekkid with baby dragons, she had a power fixation that was going to consume her. I don't think they needed to do any more work there.
When the people pulling her strings were Jorah and Tyrion, you could see the possibility for more of a struggle within her. But when they went away, the wheels immediately came off her bus. She was on the right side of things a bunch of times, but they made it clear that her vengeance always shone through and she always took it too far. So near the end when she had other really positive influences around her and they held no sway over her at all, she was done.
When the people pulling her strings were Jorah and Tyrion, you could see the possibility for more of a struggle within her. But when they went away, the wheels immediately came off her bus. She was on the right side of things a bunch of times, but they made it clear that her vengeance always shone through and she always took it too far. So near the end when she had other really positive influences around her and they held no sway over her at all, she was done.
Sorry if the GoT talk is a bit much. I don't recall ever discussing it here, but I've been hit in the head a lot.
Nah this is off season time and a lot of good posts on this with diverse opinions especially those that watched/are watching.
The whole Cavil/Witcher drama seems a bit weird in the grand scheme with a lot of back channel axe grinding negative against Cavil. No idea what is the truth and don't really care. But in the early reads about creative direction conflicts this is classic sabotage behind the scenes. Ultimately either creative balance of power behind the scenes was not setup well or butt hurts. First season I still really liked watched it twice. Second season my first main issue was eyebrow color gate that bothered me in every scene.
NOT looking forward to another Superman reboot especially with the focus on Daily Planet Clark acting like a fool which I always had limited tolerance. Switch Cavil to an actor 11 years younger....meh. Though a big fan of Rachel Brosnahan in general.
NOT looking forward to another Superman reboot especially with the focus on Daily Planet Clark acting like a fool which I always had limited tolerance. Switch Cavil to an actor 11 years younger....meh. Though a big fan of Rachel Brosnahan in general.
Brian23
Registered User
- Dec 3, 2011
- 5,853
- 2,740
They knew where it was going from the get go, which is why them downplaying the magical elements when it's such a crucial part of the story was so weird.
D&D wanted to get out asap to go do a Star Wars series, but they f***ed GOT up so bad they didn't even get that. There isn't a world where HBO isn't giving them literally anything they wanted for that show. I can't think of almost anything that's controlled the cultural zeitgeist like GoT did. It'd still be impressive if it wasn't even more impressive how they immediately killed it with S07 and S08.
I've been pretty annoyed for years that the talk around Superman was always that he had to be "perfect" or a Jesus like figure for the big screen. It completely ignores that he needs to be a character. The only Jesus like people need to be his Parents.
Like, All Star Superman is the GOAT Superman story and it literally just boiled
a dying man wanting to spend as much time as he had left with the woman he loved.
JayBeagleFanAccount
Registered User
the show started falling apart way before s7 and s8. S1 is incredible, s2 and s3 are fine, s4 is where the cracks really unfold and then after that its not even worth watching. I'm also a book purist so that clouds my view of the show pretty severely but still some of the decisions they made are so baffling (no faegon lol)
HTFN
Registered User
- Feb 8, 2009
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Don't remember whose quote this is but DC somehow fails to understand at every turn that "Marvel characters are humans with the power of gods, DC characters are gods learning to live as humans"
outside of Batman, obviously, DC just can't seem to figure out that it isn't the powers or being a true paragon of virtue that keeps those stories interesting, it's all about the person involved and none of the DC movie characters have any, well, character.
outside of Batman, obviously, DC just can't seem to figure out that it isn't the powers or being a true paragon of virtue that keeps those stories interesting, it's all about the person involved and none of the DC movie characters have any, well, character.
HTFN
Registered User
- Feb 8, 2009
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I kind of get why no Faegon, there's kind of not really enough book material to go on. I know he would have a lot of value to the story in the later seasons as a way to more credibly piss Danaerys off but without sitting down and workshopping a lot of that with GRRM it seems like the first narrative avenue that would descend right into fanfiction
Like, there's adapting the post-book content that has multiple books and firmly established characters and they didn't always do that super great, but Faegon is a relatively new character that has a ton of lateral potential even in the books. I don't know how that would go but it seems like it would put a big wrench in things
Like, there's adapting the post-book content that has multiple books and firmly established characters and they didn't always do that super great, but Faegon is a relatively new character that has a ton of lateral potential even in the books. I don't know how that would go but it seems like it would put a big wrench in things
JayBeagleFanAccount
Registered User
hes one of the most important characters in the story and is key to several other characters actions, without faegon characters like varys and ilyrio lose all their motivation and joncon doesnt even make an appearance in the show. D&D said they workshopped with grrm about time traveling bran, although they totally botched that story line lol so I do agree that it wouldve turned into bad fanfic. Its just a bummer that so many good characters were left out of the show!
HTFN
Registered User
- Feb 8, 2009
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I don't think you're wrong but in the books you're kind of hunting for crumbs and hints about this rumor until, what, book 4 or 5? It's sneaky subtle background stuff and we don't get to meet a lot of them until right before the source material runs out, which I think just means they'd ruin it the same way they ruined
like everything about Dorne except for Oberyn. Like you said with Bran there's knowing the bullet points but they do a pretty poor job filling the space when the book content goes away
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
- 66,414
- 21,417
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
- 66,414
- 21,417
I swear Cavill must have negotiated his salary by the number of lines. Half grunts, doesn’t say much at all.
Speaking of Superman, Injustice on Max (2021 and rated R) was pretty damn good. Violent….Superman decides to rule Earth.
RedRocking
Registered User
I think Succession has been the best show on TV the last ~ 5 years, and I will fight anyone who says different, lol. Better Call Saul was pretty fantastic too. There are a lot of really good faux-prestige shows on nowadays, but Succession was the one to follow in the footsteps of Mad Men, Sopranos, etc… as being truly great imho.
And yea I’d agree about GRRM’s overly descriptive, purple prose. Also, I refuse to get sucked into another online GoT discussion - it’s been over long enough, time to let it go, ha. For the first time watchers, ignore the haters.
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
- 66,414
- 21,417
RedRocking
Registered User
The subject matter - a critique of late stage capitalism, and the billionaire class. And it’s all wrapped up in a compelling, complex family dynamic not unlike the Murdochs or Trumps.
As a show, it’s the writing and acting that are top notch. And it’s really funny with a black sense of humor. Same writers as Veep to give you an idea.
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
- 66,414
- 21,417
Didn’t watch Veep either, but I get it now. The billionaire lives thing might be compelling to me I guess….
I will virtually combat you with my useless internetz opinion that I find Succession a pretty big 'meh' after my two seasons of watching.
RedRocking
Registered User
You asked for it mf’er!
I would have also accepted a Scott Pilgrim-esque musical battle, lol.
HTFN
Registered User
- Feb 8, 2009
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Sometimes it seems like it forgets to be a critique and trends towards hero worship, especially with Logan. I haven't started the last season yet but it's missing something for me to make it great. It's very good and keeps my attention but it gets sort of Wolf of Wall Street-y and there are still some characters that just make no sense to me. Greg is the worst.
Hivemind
We're Touched
Even among HBO titles, I don't think it comes close to being on top. Mare of Easttown, Barry, The Last of Us, We Own this City, House of the Dragon, and Watchmen are all better in my mind. Maybe even The Outsiders as well. Granted, with the exception of Barry, all of those shows are either single season standalones or only have one season out so far. And outside of HBO, I think Andor claims the crown of the best TV show of the past 5 years (and nearly 10 if it weren't for the fact that True Detective season 1 sneaks barely into that window).
While trying my best to avoid spoilers for the folks only partially thru Succession - nothing ever happens. Sure, stuff does happen within an episode, but until season 4, it never matters much beyond that episode. It's like a sitcom where, regardless of what happened last week everything is reset back to normal at the start of the following episode. I know its most ardent supporters will call it a character study and claim its not a "plot driven show," and that can be fine in theory. But after a while it makes it feel like nothing that happens in the show really matters. There's a whole spider web of dangling plot strings that they'll pull on occasionally, but they never get resolved nor do they meaningfully steer the plot of the show as a whole. There are side arcs that are abandoned as soon as they pop up (remember when Roman blew up a rocket? No worries, nobody else does either). Hell, even the central premise of the first season (Logan's dementia) is pretty much entirely abandoned after that season. Season 4 bucks this trend for a while during the middle of it, but it falls back to old patterns by the end.
Succession does have the best music of any TV show recently. Hands down.
HTFN
Registered User
- Feb 8, 2009
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You put how I feel about it into words better than I could. Nothing happens, nobody learns anything or progresses, and Logan's dementia is something that they turn on and off when they want to build some tension.
Even among HBO titles, I don't think it comes close to being on top. Mare of Easttown, Barry, The Last of Us, We Own this City, House of the Dragon, and Watchmen are all better in my mind. Maybe even The Outsiders as well. Granted, with the exception of Barry, all of those shows are either single season standalones or only have one season out so far. And outside of HBO, I think Andor claims the crown of the best TV show of the past 5 years (and nearly 10 if it weren't for the fact that True Detective season 1 sneaks barely into that window).
While trying my best to avoid spoilers for the folks only partially thru Succession - nothing ever happens. Sure, stuff does happen within an episode, but until season 4, it never matters much beyond that episode. It's like a sitcom where, regardless of what happened last week everything is reset back to normal at the start of the following episode. I know its most ardent supporters will call it a character study and claim its not a "plot driven show," and that can be fine in theory. But after a while it makes it feel like nothing that happens in the show really matters. There's a whole spider web of dangling plot strings that they'll pull on occasionally, but they never get resolved nor do they meaningfully steer the plot of the show as a whole. There are side arcs that are abandoned as soon as they pop up (remember when Roman blew up a rocket? No worries, nobody else does either). Hell, even the central premise of the first season (Logan's dementia) is pretty much entirely abandoned after that season. Season 4 bucks this trend for a while during the middle of it, but it falls back to old patterns by the end.
Succession does have the best music of any TV show recently. Hands down.
And Greg is such a frustrating waste of space character. If he were just another underpowered outsider clinger like Tom I would get it a little more but this is a dude with a literal fortune just waiting and every warning in the world from his Grandfather that he's gonna get f***ed and he's so desperate to make his life worse, but also weirdly non-committal about the whole thing. He's like Mac "playing both sides so he always comes out on top" but all of the information in front of his face says the Roys don't give a shit about him, he has no significant useful skills, and can prove himself a lot more by walking away and doing whatever he wants with his life instead of constantly hovering around catching strays.
I know they kind of gave him an original motivation and then got him all caught up in some crimes for a while but it all really fell apart once his inheritance was on the line at the exact same time he was actually free and clear. I don't remember him being caught in the middle or trapped, I just remember him deliberately choosing the worst option and then going "uh, well, uh uh well when you said 'I'm not giving you any money' I didn't think you, uh, meant 'I'm not giving you any money'". Like, the f*** did you think was going to happen, dude? Your grandpa's a stubborn oak tree of a man who gave you so many more chances than expected anyway before he finally held true to his word
I know they kind of gave him an original motivation and then got him all caught up in some crimes for a while but it all really fell apart once his inheritance was on the line at the exact same time he was actually free and clear. I don't remember him being caught in the middle or trapped, I just remember him deliberately choosing the worst option and then going "uh, well, uh uh well when you said 'I'm not giving you any money' I didn't think you, uh, meant 'I'm not giving you any money'". Like, the f*** did you think was going to happen, dude? Your grandpa's a stubborn oak tree of a man who gave you so many more chances than expected anyway before he finally held true to his word
Jags
Mildly Disturbed
I think he crushes the role though. Having an actor that can do the physical stuff as well as he does, look the part, and actually have real acting chops and presence is a huge boon for that show. His commitment to the physical side is bananas, yet you still buy his vulnerability.
It's a delicate balance. So many of the great action stars were totally unbelievable outside of action and comedy. Maybe Sly had his moments, but I never wanted to see Arnie or The Rock kiss anyone, y'know? Yikes.
Cavill's a rare breed. Liam Hemsworth taking over the role next year feels like it's really going to suck, which is a bummer cuz I really like this show.
CapitalsCupReality
It’s Go Time!!
- Feb 27, 2002
- 66,414
- 21,417
Yeah I wasn’t trying to say he was bad…although “crushed it” I dunno…..the role isn’t that great. If anything he’s under-used.
he was solid….always been a fan.
RedRocking
Registered User
Yea, the show is at least 50% better because of the music - so great!
Even among HBO titles, I don't think it comes close to being on top. Mare of Easttown, Barry, The Last of Us, We Own this City, House of the Dragon, and Watchmen are all better in my mind. Maybe even The Outsiders as well. Granted, with the exception of Barry, all of those shows are either single season standalones or only have one season out so far. And outside of HBO, I think Andor claims the crown of the best TV show of the past 5 years (and nearly 10 if it weren't for the fact that True Detective season 1 sneaks barely into that window).
While trying my best to avoid spoilers for the folks only partially thru Succession - nothing ever happens. Sure, stuff does happen within an episode, but until season 4, it never matters much beyond that episode. It's like a sitcom where, regardless of what happened last week everything is reset back to normal at the start of the following episode. I know its most ardent supporters will call it a character study and claim its not a "plot driven show," and that can be fine in theory. But after a while it makes it feel like nothing that happens in the show really matters. There's a whole spider web of dangling plot strings that they'll pull on occasionally, but they never get resolved nor do they meaningfully steer the plot of the show as a whole. There are side arcs that are abandoned as soon as they pop up (remember when Roman blew up a rocket? No worries, nobody else does either). Hell, even the central premise of the first season (Logan's dementia) is pretty much entirely abandoned after that season. Season 4 bucks this trend for a while during the middle of it, but it falls back to old patterns by the end.
Succession does have the best music of any TV show recently. Hands down.
All good, I get those criticisms and understand why it can be frustrating in terms of plot and the sort of miserableness of everyone involved. You already addressed some of the counters, so I’ll leave it. As far as the “hero worship” comment - it’s good at playing the trick where you do sympathize with characters in certain moments before the rug gets pulled and you’re reminded, again, that ALL of these people are irredeemable pieces of sh*t. I like its pov that anyone who reaches this kind of success necessarily is (or becomes along the way) a deeply damaged, toxic person. Greg’s gradual corruption is the most obvious example for the audience. See also Alexander Skarsgård in S4 as another example from outside the family.
I think the cast is absolutely incredible - Cox, Strong, Snook, McFadyen, etc… I enjoy the political maneuvering, scheming, betrayals, and how it’s kind of a Shakespearean tragedy (like King Lear, or Richard III) set with modern kings and queens (capitalist billionaires). And that it balances that pretentiousness with its dark sense of humor and all the absurdly well worded profanities thrown around (b/n this and Veep, Jesse Armstrong should be in some insult writing HOF, lol).
Anyways, not everyone is gonna enjoy 4 seasons of largely the same shtick - I get it, and I’ll stop endlessly pontificating, lol.
I loved Barry, thought it had a good final season. I thought Watchmen and We Own This City were fantastic (to anyone that’s a fan of The Wire, check out the latter - I don’t find a lot of people were aware of it). I thought TLOU was really good, but not as good as some of the hype (I never played the game, maybe that’s why?). HOTD was pretty great, and I hope the strike ends soon so we can get S2.
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HTFN
Registered User
- Feb 8, 2009
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I agree with this, even the parts where Greg gets grimy, but then it's like the show undercuts itself by resetting and sort of making the message appear to be "everyone is gross, and that's okay because at the end of the day these people want for nothing but their own stupid little game and nobody ever really makes them pay for it". Like... I binge watched it, I don't want this to sound like it's got no merit. It's well shot and written and it's constantly intriguing, you're always like "oooooh that's going to mean big things" and that part is really fun but there's not really enough permanence or consequence for me.
Yeah, they're all sociopath work addicts who seem to have zero hobbies but the ways it's portrayed to impact them are all brushed off as minor or worth it. They don't engage with the outside world enough to make you truly question their characters, it's all still filtered through the scope of the business and controlling it being literally the most important thing on the planet to all of them. They're less fun DiCaprios, or like if Arrested Development was played completely straight and dramatic.
It's so hard to really pin down. It's not junk food TV, it has way too much substance for that but it's regularly coming up just shy of a full meal for me when I think about it more.
