Salary Cap: Cap Management by Burke and Nonis

[Stephen]

UFA vs. RFA. Kessel will be getting 6.5-7 mil with his next contract.

Zajac has been playing on the first line with the likes of Parise, let's also not ignore that after the 67 point season, he put up 44 points the next season, pretty inconsistent.

Grabovski isn't worth keeping as a UFA if you have to pay him $6 million this year for a cap hit of $5.5 million.

 

[hobarth]

Using market comparables, please show us that Grabo and Lupul are overpaid.

Keep in mind RFA contracts ARE NOT a market comparable.

I've already provided market comparables for both players in the "Most expensive 3rd line in the NHL" thread.

 

[Stephen]

He won't be paid more than Kessel when Kessel resigns, which would be more comparable than his current deal which he signed much younger.

There is more to player contracts than point totals. Just like any union job, seniority plays a part. In hockey, you also have to pay more money for FA years. You also have to consider the players role on your team not just what you think he would do on some other team.

Just saying, he got 60pts he's worth x amount is really uneducated.

I'm not a particularly big Grabovski fan and I see a lot of problems paying out that kind of coin for not only okay production, but I have a lot of issues with him being retained at core player money, especially since:

-his playmaking is awful, which limits his ability to find chemistry with teammates.
-not effective on the cycle
-doesn't control the ice at all as a center
-shows up once every 2 or 3 games which makes his production unreliable.
-actually hasn't posted a single point in the past five games, doesn't get nearly the same flack as Kessel for not scoring goals.
-bad on special teams.
-seems to have built a reputation on having big games and making big plays, but they are few and far between

 

[hobarth]

My opinion on Lupul contract:

If he were to sign a 1-2 year deal, it would have been in the 6m+ per year range. That is what PPG players get, even if it is only for 1 season.

We signed him for 5.25m over 5 years. Decreased cap hit due to increase in length.

The contract I would have liked to see would have been 5.5-5.75m for 3-4 years. We got him cheaper, but we also have longer.

For me, it is yet to be determined whether it was a good or bad signing.





Grabo's contract is fine by me. Was signed to take up 7.8% of the cap space of the year the contract started.
- Kesler was signed for 8.4% of the cap
- Krejci was signed for 7.5% of the cap (RFA)
- Plekanec was signed for 8.4% of the cap
- Pominville was signed for 9.3% of the cap
- Zetterberg was signed for 10.7% of the cap
- Bergeron was signed for 7.8% of the cap

I fail to see Grabo being overpaid. That is what players of his caliber get signed for now.

The reason we can find all these people making less then him but being better players is because people sign longer contracts now.

An example Kessel is signed for 5.4m and looks like a friggin steal because he is in the last year of his contract. At the time he signed for what he was worth, but due to the length of the contract and the big increases in the cap, his contract now looks much better.

Are you seriously saying you think that Grabo is equal to the players on your list ?

Man I wish I was a GM in the NHL and discussing trades with you!!

 

[Coatsy79]

Crumbs, what were the leafs supposed to do, let Lupul walk, then what, maybe Kessel is no longer as effective without Lupul on his line

You raise the issue of non competitiveness, and that's the reason the Leafs have to slightly overpay to keep talent on the books

When your competitive like Boston, players are willing to sign slightly cheaper in the hope of winning a cup

Simples!!

 

[My Sweet Shadow]

The Rangers were synonymous with signing mediocre players to extravagant contracts (see Drury, Gomez, Redden, etc.), yet it hasn't hampered them from acquiring Richards, Gaborik, and Nash $6.5M+ each. Not to mention locking up their goalie for $6.875M.

Comparatively, we've got it easy; only 4 players locked up past next year (Lupul, Grabovski, JVR, and Liles) at $20.375 and none of those guys are ridiculously overpaid. We'd be able to move any one of them in a heartbeat.

 

[DaveT83*]

Kessel won't be resigned


/thread

 

[Grant]

Are you seriously saying you think that Grabo is equal to the players on your list ?

I was taking players from your list here

I've already provided market comparables for both players in the "Most expensive 3rd line in the NHL" thread.

and then showing the percentage of the cap hit they took up when they signed. As you can see Grabo signed for a smaller percentage of the cap hit than most of those other players. I think those other players are better than Grabo (by varying degrees). We could easily call Grabo overpaid if his percentage was higher than all those players, but it isn't.

Also the best market comparables would be to compare to players who signed recently and not players who signed in many cases 2-3 years ago and unfortunately there are not many of them. Forwards who signed for a similar amount of money (not RFA forwards) somewhat recently is pretty much limited to Zajac (5.75) and Doan (5.3)

 

[Grandrift145]

how has he not lived up to his contract?

10 goals 25 assist in 59 games 09-10

29 goals 29 assist in 81 games 10-11

23 goals 28 assist in 74 games 11-12

that is second line production

and he is an excellent two way player

and at faceoffs

he is 29 years old

he makes 5.5 million a year

not overpaid or underpaid

stasney 27 years old

09-10 79 points (81 games)
10-11 57 points (74 games)
11-12 53 points (79 games)

makes 6.6 million a year

plakanec 30 years old

09-10 70 points (82 games)
10-11 57 points (77 games)
11-12 52 points (81 games)

makes 5 million a year

legwand 32 years old

09-10 38 points (82 games)
10-11 41 points (64 games)
11-12 53 points (71 games)

makes 4.5 million a year

mike richards 27 years old

09-10 62 points (82 games)
10-11 66 points (81 games)
11-12 44 points (74 games)

makes 5.75 million a year

cammalari 30 years old

09-10 50 points (65 games)
10-11 47 points (67 games)
11-12 41 points (66 games)

makes 6.6 million a year

horcoff 34 years old

09-10 36 points (77 games)
10-11 27 points (47 games)
11-12 34 points (81 games)

makes 5,5 million a year

umberger 30 years old

09-10 55 points (82 games)
10-11 57 points (82 games)
11-12 40 points (77 games)

makes 4.6 million a year

zayjac 27 years old

09-10 67 points (82 games)
10-11 44 points (82 games)
11-12 6 points (15 games)

makes 5.75 million a year



those are his comparables


grabbo is a good second line player

he is producing like a second line player

and getting paid like a second line player


personally i believe that based on production, the only overpaid player on the leafs is

komaserik

and even his contract doesn't bother me



BECAUSE ITS NOT MY MONEY



and the team hasn't spent near the cap in over 5 years so its not like he is the reason the team hasn't gotten top free agents over the years

we worry about how much money these guys make too much


if they don't get the money, someone else will.

and it wont be you or me.


also he has 5 points in 11 games so far

 

[hullsy47]

Kessel won't be resigned


/thread

kessel will be resigned if he is willing to rework a contract .....burke made it hard on all counts ,by giving up too much ,and paying him 1.5 million a year too much
he got more than shea weber ,parise ,suter ,all did at the same age ,,,i doubt minnesota would trade parise for kessel right now ....like kessel or not ,the ecomics point to him either giving a hometown discount ,or walk ....

 

[The Podium]

Zajac has two years where he's put up 67 and 62 points a year in New Jersey, which is in the first line bracket that Phil Kessel has managed here before last season.

Grabovski is not a great anything. He's a good second liner who is paid more than Phil Kessel, in the grand tradition of the Leafs paying okay players far more than they're worth.

Your comparing point totals between a guy who plays with Kulemin and MacArthur vs. a guy who spent most of his career with Parise and now Kovalchuck? The fact that there is only a 9 point difference in career highs is incredible considering line-mates and ice-time. Check their points/60 and Corsi QoT in Grabos 58 point season and Zajacs 67 point season and then let me know who had the better season of the two....

 

[The Podium]

Are you seriously saying you think that Grabo is equal to the players on your list ?

Man I wish I was a GM in the NHL and discussing trades with you!!

Are you seriously that dense? He is showing how although better plays are being paid less, its not becausee they are on a steal of a deal. After 5 or so year since the deal has been signed the cap had gone up and those 5 million dollar contracts were originally a larger portion of the cap than Grabovskis 5.25 million deal. Keslers for example would be closer to 6 million if he signed to the same contract last season because that would be his % of the total cap.

how has he not lived up to his contract?

10 goals 25 assist in 59 games 09-10

29 goals 29 assist in 81 games 10-11

23 goals 28 assist in 74 games 11-12

that is second line production

and he is an excellent two way player

and at faceoffs

he is 29 years old

he makes 5.5 million a year

not overpaid or underpaid

stasney 27 years old

09-10 79 points (81 games)
10-11 57 points (74 games)
11-12 53 points (79 games)

makes 6.6 million a year

plakanec 30 years old

09-10 70 points (82 games)
10-11 57 points (77 games)
11-12 52 points (81 games)

makes 5 million a year

legwand 32 years old

09-10 38 points (82 games)
10-11 41 points (64 games)
11-12 53 points (71 games)

makes 4.5 million a year

mike richards 27 years old

09-10 62 points (82 games)
10-11 66 points (81 games)
11-12 44 points (74 games)

makes 5.75 million a year

cammalari 30 years old

09-10 50 points (65 games)
10-11 47 points (67 games)
11-12 41 points (66 games)

makes 6.6 million a year

horcoff 34 years old

09-10 36 points (77 games)
10-11 27 points (47 games)
11-12 34 points (81 games)

makes 5,5 million a year

umberger 30 years old

09-10 55 points (82 games)
10-11 57 points (82 games)
11-12 40 points (77 games)

makes 4.6 million a year

zayjac 27 years old

09-10 67 points (82 games)
10-11 44 points (82 games)
11-12 6 points (15 games)

makes 5.75 million a year



those are his comparables


grabbo is a good second line player

he is producing like a second line player

and getting paid like a second line player


personally i believe that based on production, the only overpaid player on the leafs is

komaserik

and even his contract doesn't bother me



BECAUSE ITS NOT MY MONEY



and the team hasn't spent near the cap in over 5 years so its not like he is the reason the team hasn't gotten top free agents over the years

we worry about how much money these guys make too much


if they don't get the money, someone else will.

and it wont be you or me.


also he has 5 points in 11 games so far

People want to ***** just to *****. At least some people like you see reality for what it is.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

What is the issue?

P.S
Lupul is a bargin at 5.25m,

The guy had one good season.

 

[The Podium]

The guy had one good season.

The guy has actually had 2 seasons below 50 points (on pace for) his rookie and 3rd year

4 50 or 50 pace seasons

1 60 point pace season

1 PPG season

The guy is regularly a 50-60 point player and like has been argued for Grabo thats market value. The problem with his contract is that hes often injured and those types of players hurt a playoff team when they cant acquire an adequate replacement due to their pending return into the lineup.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Grabovski isn't worth keeping as a UFA if you have to pay him $6 million this year for a cap hit of $5.5 million.

What you actually pay someone in an individual season is completely irrelevant.

 

[The Podium]

What you actually pay someone in an individual season is completely irrelevant.

Especially for the Leafs

 

[RogerRoeper*]

We live in a world where Ville Leino can get 4.5 million per. Upcoming and current UFA's will get big raises. No surprise.

 

[Parkdale]

We live in a world where Ville Leino can get 4.5 million per. Upcoming and current UFA's will get big raises. No surprise.

Some of Burke's best trades were made because of having the cap room and willingness to take on someone else's cap management mistakes. Lupul and Lombardi trades come to mind. Going forward, the ability to move cap room in trades gives a team more flexibility. The key point to this is that good cap management (ie having cap room) is important for a successful team. That is why I'm so against acquiring Luongo and their ilk and their cap killer contracts (unless the Leafs are properly compensated for taking on these negative assets).

 

[Bomber0104]

Missed the playoffs for eight straight years, placing bottom ten for 4 of them and spending well up to the cap in each of those seasons..

No, we don't have a cap problem at all

 

[Stephen]

What you actually pay someone in an individual season is completely irrelevant.

His cap his is $5.5 million...

 

[Stephen]

Your comparing point totals between a guy who plays with Kulemin and MacArthur vs. a guy who spent most of his career with Parise and now Kovalchuck? The fact that there is only a 9 point difference in career highs is incredible considering line-mates and ice-time. Check their points/60 and Corsi QoT in Grabos 58 point season and Zajacs 67 point season and then let me know who had the better season of the two....

Considering Zajac had his 62 point year before Kovalchuk arrived in New Jersey, and Kovalchuk was in New Jersey for 27 games during his 67 point season, I don't think the Kovalchuk argument holds that much water.

 

[Stephen]

how has he not lived up to his contract?

10 goals 25 assist in 59 games 09-10

29 goals 29 assist in 81 games 10-11

23 goals 28 assist in 74 games 11-12

that is second line production

and he is an excellent two way player

and at faceoffs

he is 29 years old

he makes 5.5 million a year

not overpaid or underpaid

stasney 27 years old

makes 6.6 million a year

plakanec 30 years old

makes 5 million a year

legwand 32 years old

makes 4.5 million a year

mike richards 27 years old

makes 5.75 million a year

cammalari 30 years old

makes 6.6 million a year

horcoff 34 years old

makes 5,5 million a year

umberger 30 years old

makes 4.6 million a year

zayjac 27 years old

makes 5.75 million a year

To be fair a lot of those players suck balls.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Podium,

The team has spent close to the cap every year and even payed a guy like Finger/Connolly to sit in the minors.

This is the one year we haven't spent close to the cap but that has more to do with uncertainity that having no CBA caused.

Out of our high salary players moving forward Grabo is the first guy I'd want gone. JVR, Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf all more important players to build around.

Komisarek only has 1 year left on his contract and can always be bought out so he doesn't count.

With Grabo making 5.5 and Kadri emerging as another undersized/non-body game player Grabo will probably be traded before the end of his contract so that this team can address its lack of size/physicality at the top of the forward group and the right side of our D.

I think Toronto has a choice to trade Grabo well we still has decent value or wait and take the chance that his play declines (which I'm certain it will) and have him become a cap albatross in the 2-3 years of his deal.

 

[The Podium]

Podium,

The team has spent close to the cap every year and even payed a guy like Finger/Connolly to sit in the minors.

This is the one year we haven't spent close to the cap but that has more to do with uncertainity that having no CBA caused.

Out of our high salary players moving forward Grabo is the first guy I'd want gone. JVR, Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf all more important players to build around.

Komisarek only has 1 year left on his contract and can always be bought out so he doesn't count.

With Grabo making 5.5 and Kadri emerging as another undersized/non-body game player Grabo will probably be traded before the end of his contract so that this team can address its lack of size/physicality at the top of the forward group and the right side of our D.

I think Toronto has a choice to trade Grabo well we still has decent value or wait and take the chance that his play declines (which I'm certain it will) and have him become a cap albatross in the 2-3 years of his deal.

If we can acquire a 1st line C by dealing his salary than do it. If not there is no need too considering our abundance of cap space....You have to remember Connollys 4.5 comes off the books this season, the retained Lombardi's 1.5 million and MacArthurs 3.5 million. Thats 9.5 million in cap + the 6.5 we already have is 16 million. With our current group we have 16 million in cap space and we should sell Grabo off just because we can have more?

The cap is going down 6 IIRC but thats 12 million, actually 11 with Lupuls contract, in useless space with a full line-up and no one significant needed to be signed.....

 

[david999]

Grabo plays with a lot of heart. He doesn't take many nights off, and is the best centre the Leafs have. They are not in any cap problems, so why people would want to get him off the team is beyond me.