Salary Cap: Cap Management by Burke and Nonis

[TheCLAM]

Did you not read what he clearly said?

Atleast someone sees the issue here.

Giving out substantial contracts to average players does not pay dividends. I get the idea of having to overpay to a fill a need (IE Connolly) but this is a major component that the Leafs have failed to grasp.

Proper financial management is an extremely important measure of a teams success and life. If people on these boards do not realize this it is clearly an issue with what apparently is a new issue.

 

[TheCLAM]

We are not winning a cup anytime soon so why give out ridiculous contract extension (5.5 over 5) to players during peak years? JVR/Kessel/Bozak/Grabovski/Kulemin/MacA is one of the weakest top 6 in the NHL.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

We're the Toronto Maple Leafs-Worth a billion and fans want us to act like the Islanders.

 

[Warden of the North]

We are not winning a cup anytime soon so why give out ridiculous contract extension (5.5 over 5) to players during peak years? JVR/Kessel/Bozak/Grabovski/Kulemin/MacA is one of the weakest top 6 in the NHL.

If were not winning a cup why does it matter to you?

 

[Parkdale]

Smart cap management goes hand in hand with building and sustaining a cup contender. Overestimating a player and overpaying (capwise and/or term-wise) can set a team back years. Burke's cap management record was mediocre. However his stand on not signing any long term "retirement" contracts has placed the Leafs in a good position going forward under the new CBA. The reason Luongo is not that attractive an asset despite his obvious skill is because of his cap punishing contract.

 

[Rockinz]

we dont have cap problems... TBH i wish we did at times because that would indicate that we are bringing in TOP UFA's...

IMO the Leafs have been very good in managing the cap and used money to their advantage. Hence the Lupul + Gardiner deal for Beauchemin.

 

[Christ]

By that definition every team overpays players.

That should be the end of this discussion...

 

[Parkdale]

we dont have cap problems... TBH i wish we did at times because that would indicate that we are bringing in TOP UFA's...

IMO the Leafs have been very good in managing the cap and used money to their advantage. Hence the Lupul + Gardiner deal for Beauchemin.

A non playoff team being under the cap is a meaningless accomplishment. The real hard thing to do is to manage the cap as a cup contender. An example of a good team with good cap management is Boston.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I'm not saying we have a cap problem in anyway. Signing players to outrageous contracts is a problem of the Leafs. Would you rather pay 7 million for a star center or pay guys Connolly/Komisarek for the equivalent?

If there's one thing the Leafs haven't had in the Burke tenure it's outrageous contracts. At the very most some have been paid $1 M more than real worth but being UFA, that is market worth. Any of these were managed by short term.

 

[Grant]

My opinion on Lupul contract:

If he were to sign a 1-2 year deal, it would have been in the 6m+ per year range. That is what PPG players get, even if it is only for 1 season.

We signed him for 5.25m over 5 years. Decreased cap hit due to increase in length.

The contract I would have liked to see would have been 5.5-5.75m for 3-4 years. We got him cheaper, but we also have longer.

For me, it is yet to be determined whether it was a good or bad signing.





Grabo's contract is fine by me. Was signed to take up 7.8% of the cap space of the year the contract started.
- Kesler was signed for 8.4% of the cap
- Krejci was signed for 7.5% of the cap (RFA)
- Plekanec was signed for 8.4% of the cap
- Pominville was signed for 9.3% of the cap
- Zetterberg was signed for 10.7% of the cap
- Bergeron was signed for 7.8% of the cap

I fail to see Grabo being overpaid. That is what players of his caliber get signed for now.

The reason we can find all these people making less then him but being better players is because people sign longer contracts now.

An example Kessel is signed for 5.4m and looks like a friggin steal because he is in the last year of his contract. At the time he signed for what he was worth, but due to the length of the contract and the big increases in the cap, his contract now looks much better.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

We are not winning a cup anytime soon so why give out ridiculous contract extension (5.5 over 5) to players during peak years? JVR/Kessel/Bozak/Grabovski/Kulemin/MacA is one of the weakest top 6 in the NHL.

Why would you mention a guy's contract and then fail to include him in your lineup?

 

[KadoCH]

Grabo's contract is fine by me. Was signed to take up 7.8% of the cap space of the year the contract started.
- Kesler was signed for 8.4% of the cap
- Krejci was signed for 7.5% of the cap (RFA)
- Plekanec was signed for 8.4% of the cap
- Pominville was signed for 9.3% of the cap
- Zetterberg was signed for 10.7% of the cap
- Bergeron was signed for 7.8% of the cap

I fail to see Grabo being overpaid. That is what players of his caliber get signed for now.

The reason we can find all these people making less then him but being better players is because people sign longer contracts now.

I'm not getting into the discussion but the comparisons are a bit ridiculous. All those players are quite a bit better then Grabovski. You named 2 Selke winners (Kesler and Bergeron), a Conn Smythe winner and Selke runner up (Zetterberg), Pominville has 5 seasons of 60+ points, Plekanec twice led the Habs in points by 10+ and has 2 career ~70 point seasons, Krejci at 26 has three 60+ point seasons to his name.

All compared to a guy with two career 50+ point seasons and doesn't kill penalties seems a bit out of line.

 

[Warden of the North]

I'm not getting into the discussion but the comparisons are a bit ridiculous. All those players are quite a bit better then Grabovski. You named 2 Selke winners (Kesler and Bergeron), a Conn Smythe winner and Selke runner up (Zetterberg), Pominville has 5 seasons of 60+ points, Plekanec twice led the Habs in points by 10+ and has 2 career ~70 point seasons, Krejci at 26 has three 60+ point seasons to his name.

All compared to a guy with two career 50+ point seasons and doesn't kill penalties seems a bit out of line.

Most of them are signed for a higher cap %, thats his point. Bergeron is an exception to the rule, its a great contract.

 

[Rockinz]

A non playoff team being under the cap is a meaningless accomplishment. The real hard thing to do is to manage the cap as a cup contender. An example of a good team with good cap management is Boston.

Boston is ok BUT the absolute BEST by a mile are the Blues!

cup contender that is 30th in cap

 

[Swarez]

Most of them are signed for a higher cap %, thats his point. Bergeron is an exception to the rule, its a great contract.

Well they are all better, and most by a pretty big margin so of coarse the cap hit is higher.

To me is do the cap hits work with what direction the team is going. Under Burke I really felt we didn't have direction, kinda a mis-mash of players and contracts and band aid after band aid.

Under Nonis I hope this ends and he can turn what ever contracts we have into a direction that leads to winning, even if it means trading some of these guys away. IMO the only time someone is over paid is if they are untradable (Like Gomez was for habs), other wise there is always outs and that player can be turned into something beneficial. Besides after next year we have an extra $2 Million in space one Armstrong and Tucker are off our books.

 

[Epictetus]

That was a joke. Even if I was serious .. it is not a ****ing strawman...


Ya we don't have cap problems, we will not have cap problems when the cap drops, and we will definitely not have cap problems when the cap goes up. Again what is the issue ?

A strawman is:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

His argument was:

While we are in no apparent cap trouble, it is still concerning to big-time contracts paid out to ...

You posted about the Leafs needing to trade for Tim Thomas if they did not sign Komisarek or Connolly. Not only does this ignore his actual position (stated above), but what you call a "joke" was a gross misrepresentation of his actual position. Thus, a strawman.

Nevertheless, your second paragraph explains the point you are again missing.

Yes, he said something dumb about spending $7M on a #1C, like that was ever an option for Burke. Connolly was a stopgap, and he got overpaid for the very short term.

It's a simple question, really. Why are the Leafs not using this financial advantage in attempt to attract quality players?

Why are they overpaying the Jeff Finger and Jason Blake's of the hockey world?

We're the Toronto Maple Leafs-Worth a billion and fans want us to act like the Islanders.

No, the Leafs act like they are the Islanders by refusing to spend on anything worth quality.

This so called "financial advantage" and being "worth a billion" is really nothing when they are not making organizations on life-support squirm to retain their quality players. They should, really, be dominant when it comes to all things UFA and RFA, but again, far from it.

 

[The Podium]

Yes, I would like to see this as well.

Taylor Hall got an RFA contract of 6x6.

Lupul gets a 5.25 x 5 contract and ur mad? lol.

The Leafs cannot to hemorrhage talent to unrestricted free agency. No matter what. You sign them and then, if you need to trade them, you hold a mil or two of cap as needed to get push through a trade. Free agency loss is a huge talent drain, especially in an organization not flush with talent. The goal is to saturate all 50 contracts with peak talent. Losing UFAs sets the team back years.

Post of the year

My opinion on Lupul contract:

If he were to sign a 1-2 year deal, it would have been in the 6m+ per year range. That is what PPG players get, even if it is only for 1 season.

We signed him for 5.25m over 5 years. Decreased cap hit due to increase in length.

The contract I would have liked to see would have been 5.5-5.75m for 3-4 years. We got him cheaper, but we also have longer.

For me, it is yet to be determined whether it was a good or bad signing.





Grabo's contract is fine by me. Was signed to take up 7.8% of the cap space of the year the contract started.
- Kesler was signed for 8.4% of the cap
- Krejci was signed for 7.5% of the cap (RFA)
- Plekanec was signed for 8.4% of the cap
- Pominville was signed for 9.3% of the cap
- Zetterberg was signed for 10.7% of the cap
- Bergeron was signed for 7.8% of the cap

I fail to see Grabo being overpaid. That is what players of his caliber get signed for now.

The reason we can find all these people making less then him but being better players is because people sign longer contracts now.

An example Kessel is signed for 5.4m and looks like a friggin steal because he is in the last year of his contract. At the time he signed for what he was worth, but due to the length of the contract and the big increases in the cap, his contract now looks much better.

Runner-up

 

[rdawg1234]

Boston is ok BUT the absolute BEST by a mile are the Blues!

cup contender that is 30th in cap

I dont call them a contender but that's just IMO, not nearly enough offensive power.

Plus goaltending without halak was very suspect in the playoffs.

 

[Brown Dog]

Komisarek was signed to market value at the time, its not Burkes fault he completely flopped.

Yes it is. Talent evaluation and acquisition was Burke's job. If the players the GM brings in flop, that means the GM flops.

 

[Stephen]

Again Grabovski is a similar calibre player to Krejci and Zajac, all had their contracts modelled after eachother. Thats where that number came from. Lupul id agree is slightly overpaid but what was management supposed to do? Guy coming off a PPG could have got him contract and then some on the open market so its not like the had the power to lowball him.

Grabovski is statistically similar to Krejci and Zajac but both those guys are far smarter players who I feel like don't end up in that tunnel vision funk Grabs seems to find himself a lot of the times. A lot of games I feel like Grabs just wastes a whole bunch of energy getting nothing done but looking busy, and he has horrid playmaking abilities, which causes him to be out of sync with his linemates.

 

[rdawg1234]

Grabovski is statistically similar to Krejci and Zajac but both those guys are far smarter players who I feel like don't end up in that tunnel vision funk Grabs seems to find himself a lot of the times. A lot of games I feel like Grabs just wastes a whole bunch of energy getting nothing done but looking busy, and he has horrid playmaking abilities, which causes him to be out of sync with his linemates.

Zajac is pretty inconsistent. 3 Points this year in 10 games.

People always tend to overrate players on other teams and underrate ours.

Grabo is a great 2nd line C, who shouldn't be expected to be a PPG guy, a 60 point guy will not be a consistent scorer every game, he's gonna go on streaks, just like many 2nd line Centres do.

 

[Stephen]

Zajac is pretty inconsistent. 3 Points this year in 10 games.

People always tend to overrate players on other teams and underrate ours.

Grabo is a great 2nd line C, who shouldn't be expected to be a PPG guy, a 60 point guy will not be a consistent scorer every game, he's gonna go on streaks, just like many 2nd line Centres do.

Zajac has two years where he's put up 67 and 62 points a year in New Jersey, which is in the first line bracket that Phil Kessel has managed here before last season.

Grabovski is not a great anything. He's a good second liner who is paid more than Phil Kessel, in the grand tradition of the Leafs paying okay players far more than they're worth.

 

[rdawg1234]

Zajac has two years where he's put up 67 and 62 points a year in New Jersey, which is in the first line bracket that Phil Kessel has managed here before last season.

Grabovski is not a great anything. He's a good second liner who is paid more than Phil Kessel, in the grand tradition of the Leafs paying okay players far more than they're worth.

UFA vs. RFA. Kessel will be getting 6.5-7 mil with his next contract.

Zajac has been playing on the first line with the likes of Parise, let's also not ignore that after the 67 point season, he put up 44 points the next season, pretty inconsistent.

 

[Vexed]

Zajac has two years where he's put up 67 and 62 points a year in New Jersey, which is in the first line bracket that Phil Kessel has managed here before last season.

Grabovski is not a great anything. He's a good second liner who is paid more than Phil Kessel, in the grand tradition of the Leafs paying okay players far more than they're worth.

He won't be paid more than Kessel when Kessel resigns, which would be more comparable than his current deal which he signed much younger.

There is more to player contracts than point totals. Just like any union job, seniority plays a part. In hockey, you also have to pay more money for FA years. You also have to consider the players role on your team not just what you think he would do on some other team.

Just saying, he got 60pts he's worth x amount is really uneducated.

 

[4evaBlue]

It's a simple question, really. Why are the Leafs not using this financial advantage in attempt to attract quality players?

Why are they overpaying the Jeff Finger and Jason Blake's of the hockey world?

It's a simple answer. The majority of the high profile UFAs went where they wanted to go, and still ended up with Pejorative Slured retirement deals. The Leafs would have had to offer 15 year $8M cap hit to have a chance to lure the likes of Richards and Parise away from their intended destinations. I'm glad our GM wasn't dumb enough to do that. The Muskoka 5 era should have taught most that lesson.