Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Urge to Frenzy…fading.

[CanuckleBerry]

What would it take to pry Jiricek out of Columbus? Would love to have him developing under Gonchar's Foote.

 

[mriswith]

Yzerman should have done what Bill Zito did - use open spots on his roster to audition players with upside. Zito found a bunch of core pieces that way: Verhaeghe, Forsling, Bennett, Montour, etc. Instead Yzerman overpaid a host of declining vets - Copp, Compher, Chiarot, Holl, etc. He put a firm ceiling on what was achievable with his team.

That would also be good but that only gets you so far. The most glaring issue is that he needs to get his Barkov first and that hasn't been possible with the cards he's been dealt despite the tank.

 

[MS]

Yzerman should have done what Bill Zito did - use open spots on his roster to audition players with upside. Zito found a bunch of core pieces that way: Verhaeghe, Forsling, Bennett, Montour, etc. Instead Yzerman overpaid a host of declining vets - Copp, Compher, Chiarot, Holl, etc. He put a firm ceiling on what was achievable with his team.

That and make moves for actual impact players - they should have been big players for guys like Tkachuk, Eichel, etc. If you don't draft star talent, you've gotta trade for it.

Instead they just bloated their roster with a whole host of overpaid middling 30 year old UFAs and condemned themselves to mediocrity.

 

[mriswith]

I think they should’ve done what Chicago did and do a f*** it burn it all down tank. Right now they don’t have that elite talent that is needed to actually compete.

They did. They finished with 39 points in 2020 and were dead last by a mile. Then they got completely, unbelievably screwed by the lottery, which is why I said if they got one of Stutzle or Byfield like they deserved then their franchise outlook would be completely different right now.

They should have tanked one more year and that's the real fundamental flaw but that's never the criticism.

 

[Josepho]

That would also be good but that only gets you so far. The most glaring issue is that he needs to get his Barkov first and that hasn't been possible with the cards he's been dealt despite the tank.

I don't think he should be off the hook for using his money terribly just because he doesn't have his Barkov. He's been way too conservative/patient and with bolder moves he probably could've at least turned this roster into a regular playoff team. I look at LA/Winnipeg/Carolina as examples of teams that have gotten decent results despite lacking star talent.

 

[Vector]

People love to say this about Yzerman but never have a specific answer for how they could have done better. He inherited a bunch of bad contracts and busts when he took over in 2019, and there are no elite forwards drafted near Detroits picks that they missed. They got screwed by the lottery in their tank years and did the best with what they ended up with. If they get one of Byfield or Stutzle like they should have in 2020 their franchise outlook is tremendously different right now.

Up until 2023. His single biggest mistake in the rebuild was ending the tank right before the 2023 season and a draft class packed with elite talent. He desperately needed to tank one more year and pull one of the four 1C's at the top of the draft but he didn't. But all of the criticism is that Detroit should be better now, not that they should have tanked longer, and that they should have franchise talent by now as if that's the GM's fault when there isn't any that was picked anywhere near their draft slots.

Like I said, I have no problem with the teardown or accumulation of assets. The exiting of the rebuild has not gone well and for two straight years they spent a lot in free agency without anything to show for it. None of the moves will cripple the franchise but his stated goal was to be a playoff team. He's also not added anyone to the team through drafting and developing. Obviously Raymond and Seider are huge, although Seider's development has stalled a bit, and Edvinsson should step into the line-up this year. The rest of the prospect pool is pretty disappointing. Soderblom is big, Johansson is a 23 year old average-sized defenceman, Wallinder had a rough first year in the AHL, and Kasper's upside isn't that high. Cossa took a step forward but until he breaks through, that's a team playing in the shallow goaltender pool.

This is why he's paying for free agents. The "Yzerplan" was to build through the draft and support them veteran UFAs. Unless there's a big development jump for a lot of those guys, it hasn't amounted to anything.

 

[rea]

What would it take to pry Jiricek out of Columbus? Would love to have him developing under Gonchar's Foote.

 

[Paulinbc]

What would it take to pry Jiricek out of Columbus? Would love to have him developing under Gonchar's Foote.

Foote's Gonch?

 

[mriswith]

That and make moves for actual impact players - they should have been big players for guys like Tkachuk, Eichel, etc. If you don't draft star talent, you've gotta trade for it.

Instead they just bloated their roster with a whole host of overpaid middling 30 year old UFAs and condemned themselves to mediocrity.

Eichel was moved a year and a half after Yzerman took over a completely barren system. They had nothing to trade for him and weren't even close to done their rebuild and were in no position to use him effectively.

Every team in the league should have been in on Tkachuk but that's one single trade and he's not a 1C or a rebuild ending player. You can apply that criticism to every team that didn't get him.

And that team isn't condemned to anything. This isn't a SJS situation with 8 year overpaid deals to a half dozen old crappy players. Hardly anyone on the roster has significant term. The fundamental problem with that team is they don't have a young 1C and they've left the rebuild, every other issue is insignificant.

I don't think he should be off the hook for using his money terribly just because he doesn't have his Barkov. He's been way too conservative/patient and with bolder moves he probably could've at least turned this roster into a regular playoff team.

That's the criticism by most. I don't agree, I think the issue has been not sucking for longer instead. Never exit a rebuild without a 1C and especially not with an insane draft coming the very next year.

Like I said, I have no problem with the teardown or accumulation of assets. The exiting of the rebuild has not gone well and for two straight years they spent a lot in free agency without anything to show for it. None of the moves will cripple the franchise but his stated goal was to be a playoff team. He's also not added anyone to the team through drafting and developing. Obviously Raymond and Seider are huge, although Seider's development has stalled a bit, and Edvinsson should step into the line-up this year. The rest of the prospect pool is pretty disappointing. Soderblom is big, Johansson is a 23 year old average-sized defenceman, Wallinder had a rough first year in the AHL, and Kasper's upside isn't that high. Cossa took a step forward but until he breaks through, that's a team playing in the shallow goaltender pool.

This is why he's paying for free agents. The "Yzerplan" was to build through the draft and support them veteran UFAs. Unless there's a big development jump for a lot of those guys, it hasn't amounted to anything.

Every 1st round pick we can project so far looks like a success. There are no elite forwards anywhere near where he picked. I guess you're saying the drafting outside the first round is disappointing? How much of drafting outside the first round is on the GM who took over in 2019?

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

That would also be good but that only gets you so far. The most glaring issue is that he needs to get his Barkov first and that hasn't been possible with the cards he's been dealt despite the tank.

As MS mentioned earlier, if Yzerman had played his cards right, he would have been in the mix when guys like Tkachuk and Eichel demanded trades.

 

[mriswith]

As MS mentioned earlier, if Yzerman had played his cards right, he would have been in the mix when guys like Tkachuk and Eichel demanded trades.

Expecting that with Eichel isn't realistic. That was a year and a half after he took over a completely barren farm and team, was nowhere near done the rebuild, and wouldn't have been able to use him effectively.

Tkachuk is one single transaction that every team in the league missed out on and he's not a young 1C or a rebuild ending player. It's also unrealistic to expect that Tkachuk would have accepted a sign and trade to a deep in the rebuild Detroit.

 

[Wisp]

Any argument for Yzerman is completely invalidated by the Compher, Copp, Chiarot contracts. Woof. Benning-esque.

 

[credulous]

Yzerman should have done what Bill Zito did - use open spots on his roster to audition players with upside. Zito found a bunch of core pieces that way: Verhaeghe, Forsling, Bennett, Montour, etc. Instead Yzerman overpaid a host of declining vets - Copp, Compher, Chiarot, Holl, etc. He put a firm ceiling on what was achievable with his team.

he did tho? they cycled through a ton of young players on their second stops. they just didn't work out. sometimes that's the way it goes. if everyone could just sign a verhaeghe from some other teams ahl team they would

 

[mriswith]

Any argument for Yzerman is completely invalidated by the Compher, Copp, Chiarot contracts. Woof. Benning-esque.

Anyone can criticize his UFA contracts. I do too. Although the concerns are massively exaggerated, the UFA's aren't blocking any youth and unlike Benning won't be a liability for any realistic timeline where they're contending.

My disagreement is with the universal phenomenon that everyone who has a major criticism of Yzerman has the same opinion that they should have been better faster, and with a bunch of elite talent, which was literally impossible given how things went for them. The real problem is that they should tanked for longer but that is literally never the problem that the above group has.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

he did tho? they cycled through a ton of young players on their second stops. they just didn't work out. sometimes that's the way it goes. if everyone could just sign a verhaeghe from some other teams ahl team they would

I wouldn't say he cycled through a ton - he had a handful, and he didn't cycle off the failures fast enough (Fabbri being the most notable example).

In contrast, Zito went through the following list in a little over 1 season: Alex Wennberg, Carter Verhaeghe. Anthony Duclair, Mason Marchment. Nikita Gusev. Markus Nuutivara, Lucas Carlsson, Chase Priskie, Eeto Luostarinen, Vinnie Hinostroza, Sam Bennett, Brandon Montour, Gustav Forsling...

...and obviously not everyone worked out. But when you have a volume approach, not everyone needs to.

 

[mriswith]

I wouldn't say he cycled through a ton - he had a handful, and he didn't cycle off the failures fast enough (Fabbri being the most notable example).

In contrast, Zito went through the following list in a little over 1 season: Alex Wennberg, Carter Verhaeghe. Anthony Duclair, Mason Marchment. Nikita Gusev. Markus Nuutivara, Lucas Carlsson, Chase Priskie, Eeto Luostarinen, Vinnie Hinostroza, Sam Bennett, Brandon Montour, Gustav Forsling...

...and obviously not everyone worked out. But when you have a volume approach, not everyone needs to.

Zito is the best GM in the league and started with a 1C, 1D, 1G.

If your criticism is that Yzerman is not the #1 GM in the league, I agree.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Expecting that with Eichel isn't realistic. That was a year and a half after he took over a completely barren farm and team, was nowhere near done the rebuild, and wouldn't have been able to use him effectively.

Tkachuk is one single transaction that every team in the league missed out on and he's not a young 1C or a rebuild ending player. It's also unrealistic to expect that Tkachuk would have accepted a sign and trade to a deep in the rebuild Detroit.

Tkachuk had a 6 team trade list including franchises like St. Louis and Nasshville. I could easily see a more promising Red Wings roster appealing to him. I think you're really reaching for excuses - a year and a half is plenty of time for an aggressive rebuilt to harvest assets. Yzerman went through two full offseasons and drafts before Eichel hit the market.

Zito is the best GM in the league and started with a 1C, 1D, 1G.

If your criticism is that Yzerman is not the #1 GM in the league, I agree.

No, Zito added Forsling, his #1 defenseman. And if your argument that a $10M Bobrovsky any team would be desparate to dump is some kind of amazing asset he was lucky to inherit ... what a f***ing joke.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Any argument for Yzerman is completely invalidated by the Compher, Copp, Chiarot contracts. Woof. Benning-esque.

With that logic, year 1 fubar of our current management completely invalidates their 2nd year success.

 

[MS]

Eichel was moved a year and a half after Yzerman took over a completely barren system. They had nothing to trade for him and weren't even close to done their rebuild and were in no position to use him effectively.

Every team in the league should have been in on Tkachuk but that's one single trade and he's not a 1C or a rebuild ending player. You can apply that criticism to every team that didn't get him.

And that team isn't condemned to anything. This isn't a SJS situation with 8 year overpaid deals to a half dozen old crappy players. Hardly anyone on the roster has significant term. The fundamental problem with that team is they don't have a young 1C and they've left the rebuild, every other issue is insignificant.

That's the criticism by most. I don't agree, I think the issue has been not sucking for longer instead. Never exit a rebuild without a 1C and especially not with an insane draft coming the very next year.

Every 1st round pick we can project so far looks like a success. There are no elite forwards anywhere near where he picked. I guess you're saying the drafting outside the first round is disappointing? How much of drafting outside the first round is on the GM who took over in 2019?

A few months after Eichel was traded he was handing out bloated contracts to Copp and Chiarot.

There have also been other impact players moved. Detroit hasn't found any of them.

In October of 2021 they had Seider, Raymond, Veleno, Rasmussen, Hronek as U25 regulars. By April 2024 ... it was the same group minus Hronek. That franchise has literally gone nowhere for the last couple years as they've accumulated bad contracts.

And as BES said, they've picked all low-upside bets unlike what Florida has done. You aren't going to get good value from giving Copp and Compher $11 million. It was a bet you couldn't win.

 

[Vancouver_2010]

If we are paying that, I want more than Ehlers back.

Holy crap, if that trades go through, we will need a top 4 defense coming our way.

 

[Szechwan]

If we are paying that, I want more than Ehlers back.

Really? You think Pod and a late 1st is an unfair price for Ehlers? What am I missing?

 

[rea]

I see alot keep going back to fwd upgrades. I mean, is that even necessary at this point? Really, the d is pretty hard to look at right now, and that should be first thing they work at if they want to.

Think fwds are fine, gotta see the team play together to know if they need another piece or not. I am so against even thinking about trying to move pcs now to supposedly upgrade while tacking on a 1st to do so. Wtf u gonna do if the fwd doesn't gel here and u just lost Ur biggest bullet to use when tdl comes?

It's really nice outside guys, go find peace, lol. It's a long offseason, y'all giving yourselves migraines going ard in circles on it haha. Enjoy the summer!

 

[mriswith]

Tkachuk had a 6 team trade list including franchises like St. Louis and Nasshville. I could easily see a more promising Red Wings roster appealing to him. I think you're really reaching for excuses - a year and a half is plenty of time for an aggressive rebuilt to harvest assets. Yzerman went through two full offseasons and drafts before Eichel hit the market.

You think a year and a half of a scorched earth rebuild is enough time to sell a huge amount of futures and exit the scorched earth rebuild?

Agree to disagree and that is a discussion ender.

I also think there's absolutely no way Tkachuk accepts a rebuilding Detroit as a destination. I think the main reason he left Calgary is because he could tell that team was done and he wanted to win. I think the rest of the locker room knew it too.

No, Zito added Forsling, his #1 defenseman. And if your argument that a $10M Bobrovsky any team would be desparate to dump is some kind of amazing asset he was lucky to inherit ... what a f***ing joke.

Ekblad was a 1D at the time and a big part of their early success. Bob sucked at the time and was the worst contract in the league and is a huge part of why Zito's turnaround was so risky to attempt in the first place but ultimately was a key piece in winning the cup.

My point that I've made several times is that the biggest issue for Detroit is that they exited the rebuild without a young 1C and even though Zito is the best GM in the league who executed a borderline miraculous franchise turnaround, he still had that young 1C in place to do it. Detroit doesn't, and won't get one because they exited the rebuild without one. And there was no elite forward talent drafted anywhere near their picks. Yet somehow the group that criticizes Detroit thinks they should have been better faster with more elite talent and it's literally an impossible expectation.

I don't know exactly what it is about Yzerman that inspires people to want to see him fail so badly. If anyone can enlighten me on why they feel that way I'm all ears.

A few months after Eichel was traded he was handing out bloated contracts to Copp and Chiarot.

There have also been other impact players moved. Detroit hasn't found any of them.

In October of 2021 they had Seider, Raymond, Veleno, Rasmussen, Hronek as U25 regulars. By April 2024 ... it was the same group minus Hronek. That franchise has literally gone nowhere for the last couple years as they've accumulated bad contracts.

And as BES said, they've picked all low-upside bets unlike what Florida has done. You aren't going to get good value from giving Copp and Compher $11 million. It was a bet you couldn't win.

It wasn't "a few months". It was an entire season and I don't know why that's worth exaggerating, he was traded November 4 2021.

And his worst decision as a GM was exiting the rebuild in 2022 when the 2023 was clearly going to be a legendary draft. Oct 2021 was Seider and Raymonds first ever NHL game and those others are completely irrelevant.

The fact that the bolded were their U25 group is precisely the problem. A 1D and a 1W are not enough.

That's exactly the reason they needed a longer rebuild and bigger tank. As I've said several times now, the universal opinion of the detractors is to criticize that group of talent which skims over the fact that there was no elite forward talent taken anywhere near their other picks.

I'm curious what other young franchise rebuild ending talents were moved. None come to mind.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

You think a year and a half of a scorched earth rebuild is enough time to sell a huge amount of futures and exit the scorched earth rebuild?

Who is advocating for a scorched earth rebuild? It certainly isn't what Zito did.

Ekblad was a 1D at the time and a big part of their early success. Bob sucked at the time and was the worst contract in the league and is a huge part of why Zito's turnaround was so risky to attempt in the first place but ultimately was a key piece in winning the cup.

Not sure what you are arguing here. Ekblad has significantly regressed due to injury and age - without Zito unearthing Forsling there simply isn't a Cup in Florida. This to me is an argument in favor of his management style, and not an example of him getting lucky.

My point that I've made several times is that the biggest issue for Detroit is that they exited the rebuild without a young 1C and even though Zito is the best GM in the league who executed a borderline miraculous franchise turnaround, he still had that young 1C in place to do it.

Is that the biggest issue? Are the Red Wings primarily being held back by Larkin being slightly less than elite? I don't think so. Fundamentally, the Panthers roster without Barkov is miles better than the Red Wings roster without Larkin.

 

[VanJack]

Lindholm and Zadorov were big-time playoff performers in Vancouver, but a big part of me hopes they do a face-plant in Boston.

And there's a chance that could happen. Bruins are relying on Lindholm to be their No. 1 center. But it's still a debate whether he can carry that expectation. As or Zadorov, he's a 5-6 d-man on most teams. And would probably have been in that role for the Canucks. But $5m a season is far too much for a guy in that role.