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[Just A Bit Outside]

I've said this multiple times, but the reality is, no poster on HF is in a position where he or she can really evaluate the Canucks' medical staff because of one or more of the following:

1) the poster isn't a medical practitioner and doesn't have the requisite knowledge to evaluate whether the Canucks medical practitioners are negligent or otherwise doing a poor job;

2) the poster doesn't have the requisite information or context with respect to Canucks' injuries (e.g., you can have someone claiming Mikheyev was forced to play with a knee injury, when in reality, it was 100% the player's decision);

3) the poster doesn't have the requisite knowledge of other teams' medical staff and their performance, and therefore, cannot evaluate in context the Canucks medical team (i.e., they are evaluating the Canucks' medical team in isolation which is not reasonable); and

4) the poster doesn't appreciate or understand the standard for medical malpractice or negligence.

It may very well be that the Canucks medical staff does suck, and of course, they will make mistakes from time to time like all other medical practitioners, and perhaps some of these mistakes may even meet the threshold for medical negligence, but at the end of the day, no one on HF actually knows this.

All I know is, when I got a sports injury, they were not there for me.

 

[Canucker]

All I know is, when I got a sports injury, they were not there for me.

HF Doctors are always here for you, you just need to make sure its an injury we can argue about.

 

[Hodgy]

Yes, Kevyn Adams publicly criticized Eichel, questioned his commitment to the club and wanting to be part of the "solution". It wasn't very positive. Basically calling him a bad member of the organization.

Fair enough, I couldn't recall any on ice issues from a Buffalo management perspective.

Yes, my point is that there were many risks around the Eichel trade, like there are many risks around a Pettersson trade. If Petey's performance decline is injury + training related, then this is almost a perfectly analogous situation to Eichel.

Even then though, and this was my original point, the situations are not almost perfectly analogous. Eichel, in the part year before he was traded, scored nearly at a point per game pace, and that pace was pretty in line with his career average and not far off his previous year. Pettersson, on the other hand, is scoring at almost half his rate of two years ago. He has had an incredibly drastic drop in production - somewhat unprecedented, really. And with Eichel, there was certainly a large health risk, but the question was if his injury and subsequent surgery would lead to a performance decline. With Pettersson, and assuming an injury is actually the cause of his poor performance, the risk has already materialized. These are clearly not analogous situations, and I think its pretty clear, all things being equal, you'd rather take a chance on the guy whose performance hasn't yet cratered vs. the guy whose performance has cratered.

With all that said, my point isn't that there isn't similarities or anything, because clearly there is.

 

[jd22]

This season, both Pettersson and the Canucks have taken a major step back. As a team, the Canucks went from competing for the President’s Trophy to competing for the second wild card spot in the West. Pettersson, meanwhile, has just 11 goals and 34 points in 49 games while publicly feuding with Miller.

For the kind of money that the Canucks are paying Pettersson, that kind of production is unacceptable. They thought they were getting a 90-100-point elite centerman when they inked him to that deal. As of now, they are getting middling second-line center production, at best.

Hey guys, do you think he doesn't like EP40 or something?

Dude, you've made your point x 10000. You're beating a dead horse. Come up with something new or stop posting the same post with different text a thousand times over.

 

[VanJack]

If EP is getting traded, it very much seems like a team like Buffalo makes the most sense.

The "need" to make a change because things are not working right now.

Unfortunately, the fit from a Canucks POV is not great.

There's a report out this morning on the Hockey Writers site that Buffalo now feels that 'they dodged a huge bullet' by not trading for Pettersson. The piece quotes Petttersson scoring stats since signing his huge contract extension, and how it should impact his trade value.

So if Pettersson does end up in Buffalo, prior to his NTC kicking in on July 1st, the return is now likely to be pretty underwhelming. In fact I just can't see any NHL team being willing to take on an $11.7m contract, based on his stats over the past 80 games or so.

Allvin is going to end up eating this one, unfortunately.

 

[valkynax]

There's a report out this morning on the Hockey Writers site that Buffalo now feels that 'they dodged a huge bullet' by not trading for Pettersson. The piece quotes Petttersson scoring stats since signing his huge contract extension, and how it should impact his trade value.

So if Pettersson does end up in Buffalo, prior to his NTC kicking in on July 1st, the return is now likely to be pretty underwhelming. In fact I just can't see any NHL team being willing to take on an $11.7m contract, based on his stats over the past 80 games or so.

Allvin is going to end up eating this one, unfortunately.

To be fair, Pete did show some life near the 4 nations break. I can give maybe a quarter of a f*** about 4 nations, but no more.

It's gonna be the same old approach with me: Pete, do your talking on NHL ice, and remember that there will be no safety net for you.

 

[Hodgy]

Norris is also a negative asset. Garrioch literally says this. $8m AAV/5yrs for a 50 point player that is a massive IR risk. He's a cap dump.

Did he say he's a negative asset or cap dump? And since when is Garrioch an authority on this?

I'd rather roll the dice on Norris too, but I'm not lionizing what Norris is to make that case.

Nor am I. My whole preference of Norris over Lindholm is mostly driven by age and contract status, and I have told you this multiple times.

They are both cap dumps to resolve the 2C position. That's the base case. He may be a better cap dump, but a cap dump he remains until proven otherwise.

I don't know if Norris has any value, or not. Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if he had some value. The important point is that Lindholm has massive negative value right now, and his negative value isn't comparable to Norris' value. Getting into whether Norris has some value or negligible value or no value isn't overly important given the current massive difference in value of the two players.

The issue is that you are judging Norris/Lindholm via projection, not the data.

Yes, when you try to evaluate two different players' values over a six and seven year period, respectively, then you absolutely need to project. This seems obvious. And my only projection is just the accepted logic that a player from years 25-30 is reasonably expected to improve while the opposite is true from a player from ages 30-36.

At the same relative age, Lindholm was the better producer.

This isn't overly relevant to current projections for Lindholm's 30-36 seasons.

In Norris' prime, he would be lucky to hit Lindholm's prime production.

But if Norris, from 25-30, gives us similar production that Lindholm had from 25-30, then that's a relative win and a pretty good result. The issue with Lindholm is his more recent play, not his play during his prime.

And now that Lindholm has struggled for 2 years (starting at age 29), his low end production almost matches Norris' current ES production. And his 3 year average for PPPs is 1 point/82 games away... That's very similar.

Ya, but we'd be getting Norris from age 25-30, so four years of which would be good production based on Lindholm. But even then, assuming Norris will crater around the same time Lindholm did isn't even a great assumption.

Last year, they were both 3Cs in terms of P/GP (0.60 for Norris (68th) and 0.59 for Lindholm (73rd)). This excludes Lindholm's 0.77 P/PG run in the playoffs.

Is Norris then a 3C? Or do you put too much stock into a 50 game sample of PPPs?

This year Norris seems to be low end second line centre production, and last year was a bit worse. One can reasonably expect Norris' production to increase throughout the life of his contract, and so it doesn't seem to be a big concern.

Lindholm currently is producing as a low end third line centre (despite excellent deployment).

Currently one is much better than the other, and again, I am not even concluding that Norris is preferable for that reason.....the big reason is age and contract status.

Last, you continue to judge this team's aversion to LTIR wrong. The cap dump 3C that plays (Norris or Lindholm) is preferred to having to use LTIR.

Again, you continually are not understanding the context in which I said Norris going on the LTIR was beneficial. It was beneficial in comparison to being stuck with a third or fourth line centre making 7 million dollars long term. This shouldn't be contested issue.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Cozens & ....

 

[arttk]

I did point teams letting players play with a torn ACL. Everything else is moving goalposts.

in an dishonest way. Oilers "let" Hyman play with a torn ACL because they didn't know. So no they didn't "let" him play with an injury, they didn't know he had an ACL injury, big difference.

This whole moving goalpost thing is such a lazy way to have any type of conversation. I mentioned letting Mik play with a torn ACL and one of the supporting points about the fact that this medical team has an iffy history.

All you are doing is well other teams have done here is point out, oh there are 2 teams in history that have done this and for a very short period of time, nothing even close to what we've done with Mik.

How about this, you said "Literally every team does it." So prove it, prove EVERY team played a player with a torn ACL. Are you going to move that sweet goalposts of yours too? When you say every team, i am assuming you also mean every single sports team in existence. Comeon, do your work.

 

[Diablo2020]

Cozens & ....

Buffalo reporters today actually put out the "whew we dodged that bullet" article so..

But for fun, its a plot twist. Its still Bowen Byram.

Its just we flip BB immedietly to give us something to talk about for the next 5 years. (mpete vs BB)

 

[arttk]

View attachment 979239


wtf did they do? He was already healthy when he was traded

wtf are you even talking about, focus, stay on topic.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Trade EP to Utah.

 

[LemonSauceD]

wtf are you even talking about, focus, stay on topic.

I’m not wasting the rest of my day playing armchair doctor. Whatever floats yer boat.

 

[Diablo2020]

Trade EP to Utah.

THATS the team with the best shiny quarters for our dollar. So many to choose from too.

THATS the team with the most likely to be future Cam Neely lite or Tim Stutzle pick to be pried away.

THATS the team with enough to gain by making a splash regardless of where our asset actually is.

Seattle is up there too if you can pry away a very underwhelming to them, Matty Beniers.

 

[arttk]

Are you not the one who made the claim that no other team make their players play through an ACL tear? Not only was that a dubious claim that you provided zero evidence for, but @Vector has provided you with contrary evidence. And do doubt there are many other scenarios where players have played with an ACL tear or other similar injuries. Look no further than Steve Yzerman playing on basically one leg for an entire playoff run. Again, these sort of these happen with some regularity.

actually he said "literally every team does it."

sure I can make a correction to my original statement if it bugs you f***ers that much. no teams would make their player play with a torn ACL over an extended period of time. we can define the scope of "extended period of time" to 1 month and I am pretty damn sure no teams other than the Canucks have exceeded that time limit.

so does this change the merit of the argument that the our medical team has a iffy history.

Does this one change in my one of my supporting argument change the fact:
- they missed a broken hand that the blackhawks promptly identified
- they f***ed up Pearson's rehab prompting NHLPA investigation
- they misdiagnosed Hodgson's back injury by insisting he is not injured
- rushing Demko back from injury leading to him missing a f*** ton more time.

And you guys want to say .. you know .. i am going to go with THAT medical team with THAT history.

I’m not wasting the rest of my day playing armchair doctor. Whatever floats yer boat.

lol sure

 

[Jerry the great]

THATS the team with the best shiny quarters for our dollar. So many to choose from too.

THATS the team with the most likely to be future Cam Neely lite or Tim Stutzle pick to be pried away.

THATS the team with enough to gain by making a splash regardless of where our asset actually is.

Seattle is up there too if you can pry away a very underwhelming to them, Matty Beniers.

Francis has helium filled balls....he would bever make a trade like that.

 

[Diversification]

To be fair, Pete did show some life near the 4 nations break. I can give maybe a quarter of a f*** about 4 nations, but no more.

It's gonna be the same old approach with me: Pete, do your talking on NHL ice, and remember that there will be no safety net for you.

He showed some life in his last game before the 4 Nations Cup. He's slowly getting better. But improvement (shockingly) isn't linear. I expect the slow, gradual upward trend to continue through to the end of the season and into the playoffs should we qualify.

 

[Diablo2020]

Francis has helium filled balls....he would bever make a trade like that.

Circumstances have evolved so much in Seattle that Ronnie Franchise is the #1 GM capable of a Jim Benning OEL hail mary to save his life today, IMO.

Kevyn Adams isnt it. And Terry P aint cutting those Petey cheques imo.

But Utah would still be my target their owner prints money and EP40 Mammoth jerseys would sell like hotcakes.

 

[Nick Lang]

Why did the team let Mikheyev play on a torn ACL? Why shouldn’t they have? Who made the decision to play on it? What was the diagnosis from the medical staff? Did he get a second opinion? Enlighten us.

I try not to point too many fingers or pretend I know the inner workings of what goes on behind the scenes but the handling of Mikheyev and letting him (blaming him) make his own decisions looked downright stupid (missing the start of next season), as does a lot of their handling of injuries. From Demko, to Pearson, to Hughes, Petey, and beyond their decision making and at times visible confusion/misdirection in this area looks questionable to say the best.

I mean yes they tried to justified it, but is there any other team in any sports league that let their guy play through a torn ACL?

If that is such a f***ing awesome idea why is the Canucks alone in that approach? Are we pioneers or just run by a medical team that is f***ing on crack.

I've gotta agree. I've never seen a situation like that in my decades of hockey. Especially one where the delaying of surgery at the start of one season delayed the start of the next season for that player by the same amount of time. I've seen lots of times where they delay surgery during a successful year but not at day 1 on a shitty hockey team where it compromises the next season.

 

[theguardianII]

Not likely considering his words but a Seth Jones trade? A three way deal?

 

[Diablo2020]

Not likely considering his words but a Seth Jones trade? A three way deal?

Chicago is one of those teams the "wait until the draft" crowd will love because today there isnt a single player id want from them to immedietly slot into our lineup.

But yet they could use Boeser. They could use Pettersson. They could use Lekkerimaki.

So unless its Boeser for Jones because its easier to trade a RHD than Boeser..

Or its Jones, +, +, for Petey then we trade every single thing elsewhere..

Or they want to "age gap" but properly and pony up their 1st and Jones for Lekkerimaki and our 1st or something...

Hawks make the worst partners.

 

[Hodgy]

actually he said "literally every team does it."

He was responding to your post that stated this:

I mean yes they tried to justified it, but is there any other team in any sports league that let their guy play through a torn ACL?

If that is such a f***ing awesome idea why is the Canucks alone in that approach? Are we pioneers or just run by a medical team that is f***ing on crack.

sure I can make a correction to my original statement if it bugs you f***ers that much. no teams would make their player play with a torn ACL over an extended period of time.

But they didn't make Mikheyev play based on Mikheyev's own admission.

 

[Diablo2020]

But they didn't make Mikheyev play based on Mikheyev's own admission.

The fact Ilya Mikhayev played one second after a doctor, or chiropractor, hell even a dentist knew he had a knee injury that severe is enough of a blanket to throw over this whole discussion.

Everyone was in the wrong. Shouldnt have happened. I dont care if Ilya himself said its ok. This wasnt a play thru it hockey injury. The NHLPA wasnt gonna goto bat for old Ilya and file against us.

The day this franchise grows a pair with a championship mentality and Vegas' the first guy to Robidas (Poolman?) island the mental gymnastics fans on both sides of the fence here today will take will be legendary.

But Joffrey Lupul said he wanted to playyyyyy?!

Boohoo.

4.75 on LTIR and you can replace him with a better player tomorrow. Show his xray to Gary if him and Daly give you any trouble.

 

[arttk]

He was responding to your post that stated this:

and he said "literally every team does this", now tell me, what does "literally every team" mean.

But they didn't make Mikheyev play based on Mikheyev's own admission.

Letting the player take that risk and supporting that is a conscious decision they made based on input from the medical team. I am confident that large large large majority of teams won't allow that and all evidence supports that considering you guys can only find 2 teams out of all sports league that has willingly let this happen.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

I was fully onboard for trading away EP40 up until recently

It's dead. I can only imagine how low the value must be on the open market. If taking a guy like Cozens back is the best case scenario....then I would rather keep EP40.