Canucks Management and Ownership Thread v30.0 (Post #186)

[Mad Brills*]

you mean how the kesler trade should've been vatanen, 10A instead of sbisa/bonino/24OA?

 

[banme*]

What were their numbers when they were on the same team?

In terms of high danger scoring chances, which has the greatest effect on goalie stats, they've played on pretty similar teams for the last year and a half too. One goalie has been below 900, the other around league average. Lack sucks.

 

[Ryp37]

In terms of high danger scoring chances, which has the greatest effect on goalie stats, they've played on pretty similar teams for the last year and a half too. One goalie has been below 900, the other around league average. Lack sucks.

The high danger scoring chances gets used a lot in defense of Miller.

Problem is that stat is skewed by absolute numbers. It's easier to stop a high danger scoring chance you can see then it is to stop a medium danger scoring chance you can't see. The way it is currently tracked is too random to be used as a argument for one goalie vs another.

 

[banme*]

The high danger scoring chances gets used a lot in defense of Miller.

Problem is that stat is skewed by absolute numbers. It's easier to stop a high danger scoring chance you can see then it is to stop a medium danger scoring chance you can't see. The way it is currently tracked is too random to be used as a argument for one goalie vs another.

Let me word that differently: Lack's high danger sv% is bottom of the league and has been the reason why his overall sv% sucks. Miller's high danger sv% is average-decent and his overall sv% is average. They both have faced a very similar amount of high danger scoring chances since the trade and are therefore comparable by this measure instead of only relying on 40 games 2 years ago. Whether they've faced different amount of other danger-level shots wasn't contested (although I would assume Miller has faced more and likely would come out worse because of this since he's quite obviously poor at tracking pucks at this point in his career). Lack sucks.

 

[Jyrki21]

To the express chagrin of a number of you, I bring you Benning on Empty #37: "The Fourth Estate"

 

[Peter10]

For me its not so much about Läck but more about the fact that now for the 3rd year of his $18m contract Miller has failed to clearly seperate himself from his "backup".

In his first year he got badly outplayed by Läck (who now apparently sucks), last season he was on par with Markstrom who cleared waivers before and this year he also aint much better than Markstrom. If Lack is so terrible what does it say about Miller who couldnt keep up with him 2 years ago?

Not saying Miller is a horrible goalie but he for sure is not a $6m a season tender. Thats high end starter salary, 7 highest paid goalie in the league!

 

[y2kcanucks]

What were their numbers when they were on the same team?

Still waiting for a response to this. Re: Lack vs Miller

 

[Ryp37]

Let me word that differently: Lack's high danger sv% is bottom of the league and has been the reason why his overall sv% sucks. Miller's high danger sv% is average-decent and his overall sv% is average. They both have faced a very similar amount of high danger scoring chances since the trade and are therefore comparable by this measure instead of only relying on 40 games 2 years ago. Whether they've faced different amount of other danger-level shots wasn't contested (although I would assume Miller has faced more and likely would come out worse because of this since he's quite obviously poor at tracking pucks at this point in his career). Lack sucks.

Carolina Lack sucks.

Vancouver Lack didn't. That's all I care about. He improved every year under Rollie, and has lost the plot with a goalie coach who preaches the opposite of Melanson.

 

[Peter10]

Still waiting for a response to this. Re: Lack vs Miller

Do you really think he will give you one?

 

[Hit the post]

Carolina Lack sucks.

Canucks aren't much better.

 

[Peter10]

Canucks aren't much better.

Its probably better to say Rollie Lack was good, no Rolllie Lack is bad.

 

[banme*]

Carolina Lack sucks.

Vancouver Lack didn't. That's all I care about. He improved every year under Rollie, and has lost the plot with a goalie coach who preaches the opposite of Melanson.

The point is that we give up just as many really good scoring chances as Carolina now, and athleticism (i.e. the ability to work outside of a super structured puck blocking style) is not really that coachable IMO. Nothing's a certainty but I think Lack would be struggling pretty hard on this team too.

 

[MS]

For me its not so much about Läck but more about the fact that now for the 3rd year of his $18m contract Miller has failed to clearly seperate himself from his "backup".

In his first year he got badly outplayed by Läck (who now apparently sucks), last season he was on par with Markstrom who cleared waivers before and this year he also aint much better than Markstrom. If Lack is so terrible what does it say about Miller who couldnt keep up with him 2 years ago?

Not saying Miller is a horrible goalie but he for sure is not a $6m a season tender. Thats high end starter salary, 7 highest paid goalie in the league!

Exactly.

The problem isn't that Miller has been 'terrible' but that he hasn't made any difference on what we could have received from younger, cheaper goalies, and hasn't made any difference in the standings.

His first year, we would have missed the playoffs if he didn't get hurt and Lack .930ed us into the playoffs.

The past two years, we're one of the worst teams in the NHL and would still be terrible no matter what we had in net.

All Miller has done is block off younger options that could have been more help long-term and waste $18 million that could have been spent on players that actually helped. It's been a terrible signing and a terrible fit from day 1.

 

[Ryp37]

The point is that we give up just as many really good scoring chances as Carolina now, and athleticism (i.e. the ability to work outside of a super structured puck blocking style) is not really that coachable IMO. Nothing's a certainty but I think Lack would be struggling pretty hard on this team too.

I have no doubt Lack would struggle here as well, anyone would. I'll take the guy struggling whose cap hit is 3.5 smaller all day though.

 

[Peter10]

The point is that we give up just as many really good scoring chances as Carolina now, and athleticism (i.e. the ability to work outside of a super structured puck blocking style) is not really that coachable IMO. Nothing's a certainty but I think Lack would be struggling pretty hard on this team too.

Even if so, it would be good for #teamtank.

So Miller is better this year, so what? He better be lightyears better than Lack if you take contracts into account. Lack gets almost a million less then Millers current "backup" gets on his new deal.

Lack is no Vezina candidate nor will he ever be one but under the right circumstances he should still be able to provide solid/average goaltending like he did for the 14-15 Canucks at a reasonable salary. I dont see anything wrong with that.

All the "Miller-Hate" here is mainly stemming from the same issues that we see with so many acquisations of the Benning adminstrations, like:
- paid too much for what he brings
- cost to acquire was too high (not in Millers case but in others)
- wrong player to acquire at this stage of team
- lateral move, not improving the team at all
- getting fed with top ice time to look good

You could go through all the players Benning brought in and you will find most likely at least one or two of the above for most of them. Only few would have complained about Miller if he came at a 3.5-4m price tag over a two year term but he didnt and a fan favorite was dealt to make it work. Not difficult to figure out its tough for Miller to be liked.

As for the other guys Benning got:

Sbisa: Would be ok as a #6 guy with a reasonable contract

Dorsett: Only few complained in his first year. Giving him that contract and making him a go to guy in close games is beyond ridiculous

Vey: Was probably worth the try but giving him PP time or even icetime after it was fairly obvious that it wouldnt work made him a target

Clendening: Would have been an ok choice for AHL depth but giving up a prospect on the rise (after a tremendous U20 WC) and expecting Clendening to be an actual NHL defensemen was stupid.

Baertschi: Ok not much to complain here but still some guys hype him too much. He actually hasnt done a lot at all. The trade was a good gamble but it still remains to be seen if it turns out any good.

Prust: Just plain bad after his injury and additude issue. Things might turn out different if he doesnt get injured but even then its a useless move. If you want to get rid of Kassian just waive him and keep the 5th. No need to acquire a 4th liner (!!!) who earns 2.5m a year, we already had one in Dorsett.

Granlund: I am eating a bit of crow here since he is actually somewhat improved this year however, he still is barely a top 9 player who gets top 6 player treatment from the coach. He is on pace for about 32 points with 2nd line ice time. Benning gave up a former first round pick who was doing quite ok in his development for a player that was close to hit the waiver wire because Calgary had better options (or so they believed). Then just add the fact that it took just two games after Granlund was acquired and he replaced Horvat on the then 2nd line with Baertschi and Virtanen which was working well at that point. It was another occassion of giving the new guy the better treatment.

Larsen: Price to get him was rather cheap but then Benning proclaims he would run the new and improved Canucks powerplay. No surprise folks give a s*** about him when he barely makes any impact...at least he was not absolutely terrible.

Gudbranson: Solid 4-5th defenseman but comes with some major flaws which are not exclusively his fault. He will be UFA in a year which means Benning has to either trade him again before or sign him to new deal which will likely see him at like 5m for 4-5 years just to justify to acquisition cost of McCann and a 2nd. Additionally he has no real offense instict yet management is bringing up the idea that he could burst out offensively, again raising expectation to an unrealistic level.

Sutter: Solid bottom 6 Center who can easily play top 6 winger for some time if an injury comes up (like Hansen). Benning calls him foundational player and gives him an aweful contract and his doing Sutter no favor here. He is apparently brought in to ease the development of Horvat but then gets the easy minutes and Horvat has to do the heavy lifting. Again just putting oil to the tire fire already created here. Majority would like him if he was on a good deal and played in the role that he was supposed to.

 

[banme*]

I have no doubt Lack would struggle here as well, anyone would. I'll take the guy struggling whose cap hit is 3.5 smaller all day though.

Well ya I hated the Miller signing the moment it was inked lmao. There seems to be this idea posted occasionally that our goaltending would have been set with Lack and pre-Utica Markstrom though, which would have been awful and not viable for a GM looking to win games.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Well ya I hated the Miller signing the moment it was inked lmao. There seems to be this idea posted occasionally that our goaltending would have been set with Lack and pre-Utica Markstrom though, which would have been awful and not viable for a GM looking to win games.

Almost everyone here has said that signing a cheap veteran 1b type would have been just fine. Most of us didn't want to go into the season with lack and Markstrom. Markstrom especially had shown nothing at that point.

It's a red herring, a strawman and a false dilemma. I would have been fine with the contract Calgary gave Jonas Hiller at the time, even though he sucked in the second year.

 

[MS]

Almost everyone here has said that signing a cheap veteran 1b type would have been just fine. Most of us didn't want to go into the season with lack and Markstrom. Markstrom especially had shown nothing at that point.

It's a red herring, a strawman and a false dilemma. I would have been fine with the contract Calgary gave Jonas Hiller at the time, even though he sucked in the second year.

Yup.

My suggestion at the time was Thomas Greiss, who has actually been better than Ryan Miller over the past 3 years as a $1 million goalie.

 

[PM]

To the express chagrin of a number of you, I bring you Benning on Empty #37: "The Fourth Estate"

the first two squares cracked me up. Well done again. Love the opening squares you do.

 

[Peter10]

the first two squares cracked me up. Well done again. Love the opening squares you do.

Haha yeah the Gilman on the beach was great. The "full story" has some room for improvement though...if its Canucks vs media its usually Linden vs Friedman (Iraqi Information minister vs Washington Post or something) but thats critisism on a rather high level to be honest.

 

[Huggy43]

Benning on 1040 just said he watches highlight videos of Boeser's goals.... I wonder if those are WTG's clips?

 

[Hit the post]

Well ya I hated the Miller signing the moment it was inked lmao. There seems to be this idea posted occasionally that our goaltending would have been set with Lack and pre-Utica Markstrom though, which would have been awful and not viable for a GM looking to win games.

Benning took the worst option - sign a proven vet for a term longer than any of the two remaining prospect goalies we had under contract (one of whom was a pending UFA & both weren't waiver exempt).

 

[Peter10]

Benning on 1040 just said he watches highlight videos of Boeser's goals.... I wonder if those are WTG's clips?

Was it just a random quote or another full interview and if so...any other happenings during it?

 

[krutovsdonut]

Benning took the worst option - sign a proven vet for a term longer than any of the two remaining prospect goalies we had under contract (one of whom was a pending UFA & both weren't waiver exempt).

i thought it was a crazy signing and would blow up in his face.

but now i think it was among his best. playing lack and markstrom with the team we had/have in front of them would have been a disaster that ruined both goalies. miller stabilized our goaltending for 3 years when we sucked, and gave markstrom a chance to develop into a number one. and there is a good chance miller has decent trade value at the tdl. not to mention lack fetched some lottery picks.

the truly insane part is i think resigning miller is worth thinking about. not at $6 million but maybe at $3 or $4million. right now i think we could squeeze at least another year out of him and markstrom together.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

Benning on 1040 just said he watches highlight videos of Boeser's goals.... I wonder if those are WTG's clips?

Being on HF can't be good for his self-esteem