Proposal: Canucks major shake up

[Nylanderthal]

Holl can be returned as cap ballast, but Ritchie isn't someone we want or need. I honestly feel that a small sweetener might be in order, given his start. Some retention could be possible if everything lines up otherwise.

I am not overly familiar with Toronto's prospect situation though. I know Sandin and Amirov by reputation and through games I've watched, but out side of that I don't know anything about the stat line, which to be honest I'm not excited with. Big, offensively capable forward prospects, centers especially, and physical, defensively sound RHD are our areas of weakness, do the Leafs have anything fitting those descriptions?

Holl can be returned as cap ballast, but Ritchie isn't someone we want or need. I honestly feel that a small sweetener might be in order, given his start. Some retention could be possible if everything lines up otherwise.

I am not overly familiar with Toronto's prospect situation though. I know Sandin and Amirov by reputation and through games I've watched, but out side of that I don't know anything about the stat line, which to be honest I'm not excited with. Big, offensively capable forward prospects, centers especially, and physical, defensively sound RHD are our areas of weakness, do the Leafs have anything fitting those descriptions?

The top prospects currently not in the nhl would be Amirov, Robertson, Niemela & Knies. Knies was taken in the second round this year and although he isn’t a centre, he fits the other things you’re looking for in forwards as he’s a big body, 6’3” 210 and plays with an edge. He currently has 5 goals and 9 points through 12 games playing at U of Minnesota as a 19 year old.
Amirov is a highly skilled player who isn’t necessarily big or small, but plays a typical Russian skilled game. I wouldn’t say he’s “soft” but if your preference is for guys who hit a lot, he’s not going to be that guy, but he uses his body well, which is as important in todays game. He’s injured right now, but expectations were for him to be a player of relevance for his KHL team this season as a recently turned 20 year old.
Robertson is small, but fiesty scoring winger. He scored a ton his D+1 season and was among the youngest eligible skaters in his D class. (Born sept. 11 and the cut off is September 15.) He needs to be stronger on his skates, but his effort and shot are NHL calibre. Unfortunately he’s been sidelined by injuries the last couple years combined with being in limbo really as a overage OHL/AHL player who didn’t have anywhere to play the last year and a bit.
Niemela is an average height defender at 6 foot, but is slight and needs to fill out. He’s 19 and currently pacing nearly ppg in Liiga, and is a RHD.
Aside from niemela who was taken 64th so 2nd pick of the third round all of these guys are first or second round picks in the last couple drafts and have for the most part met/exceeded development curve.
After that there’s the typical mishmash of guys who could or might make it, every organization has a bunch of these guys. Some of the “better” ones are Roni Hirvonen, Alex Steeves, Mikko Kokkonen, Mikhail Abramov. Semyon Der-Argunchintsev (SDA) looked good in camp as did Rubins & Kral on the blue line for guys farther down the prospect chart but have shown stuff on NHL ice.
Sandin & Liljegren I would consider off the table unless it’s something ridiculously favourable for Toronto. They’re currently playing like a middle pairing as 21/22 year olds on their ELC. Having them as a fixture on bridge deals in the next couple seasons is paramount to the lineup being properly filled out.
Picks are picks.
Do any of Van’s expiring depth D look reasonable as a #7 to include back? Miller @50% + ufa D for Holl + Engvall+ 1st + one guy from tier one and one guy from tier 2?
Or instead of tier 1 prospect conditonal 2nd that becomes a 1st based on playoff performance and two tier 2 guys?

 

[Cogburn]

The top prospects currently not in the nhl would be Amirov, Robertson, Niemela & Knies. Knies was taken in the second round this year and although he isn’t a centre, he fits the other things you’re looking for in forwards as he’s a big body, 6’3” 210 and plays with an edge. He currently has 5 goals and 9 points through 12 games playing at U of Minnesota as a 19 year old.
Amirov is a highly skilled player who isn’t necessarily big or small, but plays a typical Russian skilled game. I wouldn’t say he’s “soft” but if your preference is for guys who hit a lot, he’s not going to be that guy, but he uses his body well, which is as important in todays game. He’s injured right now, but expectations were for him to be a player of relevance for his KHL team this season as a recently turned 20 year old.
Robertson is small, but fiesty scoring winger. He scored a ton his D+1 season and was among the youngest eligible skaters in his D class. (Born sept. 11 and the cut off is September 15.) He needs to be stronger on his skates, but his effort and shot are NHL calibre. Unfortunately he’s been sidelined by injuries the last couple years combined with being in limbo really as a overage OHL/AHL player who didn’t have anywhere to play the last year and a bit.
Niemela is an average height defender at 6 foot, but is slight and needs to fill out. He’s 19 and currently pacing nearly ppg in Liiga, and is a RHD.
Aside from niemela who was taken 64th so 2nd pick of the third round all of these guys are first or second round picks in the last couple drafts and have for the most part met/exceeded development curve.
After that there’s the typical mishmash of guys who could or might make it, every organization has a bunch of these guys. Some of the “better” ones are Roni Hirvonen, Alex Steeves, Mikko Kokkonen, Mikhail Abramov. Semyon Der-Argunchintsev (SDA) looked good in camp as did Rubins & Kral on the blue line for guys farther down the prospect chart but have shown stuff on NHL ice.
Sandin & Liljegren I would consider off the table unless it’s something ridiculously favourable for Toronto. They’re currently playing like a middle pairing as 21/22 year olds on their ELC. Having them as a fixture on bridge deals in the next couple seasons is paramount to the lineup being properly filled out.
Picks are picks.
Do any of Van’s expiring depth D look reasonable as a #7 to include back? Miller @50% + ufa D for Holl + Engvall+ 1st + one guy from tier one and one guy from tier 2?
Or instead of tier 1 prospect conditonal 2nd that becomes a 1st based on playoff performance and two tier 2 guys?

Thanks for the write up on the prospects, it was a good read.

Knies sounds closest to what I'd want as a return, but I'd have to look more into him. We've had luck with players out of college hockey.

UFA D isn't really something we have a lot of. Schenn, Hamonic, Poolman...all of the NHL calibre guys are signed longer than this year. Otherwise Myers, Hughes and OEL are probably beyond the scope of what Toronto can take on cap wise, or what we'd want to give up value wise.

It is hard to gauge the value with the pieces coming up, but Kries is of interest. With two cap dumps an half retention, there would have to be a first and probably Kries coming back, and something to off set the cap dumps and retention. I don't think I'd be able to put a proposal here that wouldn't skew towards the Canucks based on the number of assets. It would be a tough one.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

The top prospects currently not in the nhl would be Amirov, Robertson, Niemela & Knies. Knies was taken in the second round this year and although he isn’t a centre, he fits the other things you’re looking for in forwards as he’s a big body, 6’3” 210 and plays with an edge. He currently has 5 goals and 9 points through 12 games playing at U of Minnesota as a 19 year old.
Amirov is a highly skilled player who isn’t necessarily big or small, but plays a typical Russian skilled game. I wouldn’t say he’s “soft” but if your preference is for guys who hit a lot, he’s not going to be that guy, but he uses his body well, which is as important in todays game. He’s injured right now, but expectations were for him to be a player of relevance for his KHL team this season as a recently turned 20 year old.
Robertson is small, but fiesty scoring winger. He scored a ton his D+1 season and was among the youngest eligible skaters in his D class. (Born sept. 11 and the cut off is September 15.) He needs to be stronger on his skates, but his effort and shot are NHL calibre. Unfortunately he’s been sidelined by injuries the last couple years combined with being in limbo really as a overage OHL/AHL player who didn’t have anywhere to play the last year and a bit.
Niemela is an average height defender at 6 foot, but is slight and needs to fill out. He’s 19 and currently pacing nearly ppg in Liiga, and is a RHD.
Aside from niemela who was taken 64th so 2nd pick of the third round all of these guys are first or second round picks in the last couple drafts and have for the most part met/exceeded development curve.
After that there’s the typical mishmash of guys who could or might make it, every organization has a bunch of these guys. Some of the “better” ones are Roni Hirvonen, Alex Steeves, Mikko Kokkonen, Mikhail Abramov. Semyon Der-Argunchintsev (SDA) looked good in camp as did Rubins & Kral on the blue line for guys farther down the prospect chart but have shown stuff on NHL ice.
Sandin & Liljegren I would consider off the table unless it’s something ridiculously favourable for Toronto. They’re currently playing like a middle pairing as 21/22 year olds on their ELC. Having them as a fixture on bridge deals in the next couple seasons is paramount to the lineup being properly filled out.
Picks are picks.
Do any of Van’s expiring depth D look reasonable as a #7 to include back? Miller @50% + ufa D for Holl + Engvall+ 1st + one guy from tier one and one guy from tier 2?
Or instead of tier 1 prospect conditonal 2nd that becomes a 1st based on playoff performance and two tier 2 guys?

None of that is appealing.

Especially Miller @ 50%

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Isles pitch for Boeser would be a package of - Wahlstrom, ‘22 #1, and Wilde? Is that enough for Canucks?

for Miller it should be a 1st and a prospect, like Bolduc, Wilde, or Raty? Don’t think Our fanbase would be into giving up Raty.

Isles need a LH top 4 d, but Barzy and Boeser could be amazing.

I’d take that Boeser deal as a Canucks fan.

Think Whally is going to be a very good player.

Throw in a 1st in a deep draft and a solid RHD prospect.

That’s a very good offer.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Thanks for the write up on the prospects, it was a good read.

Knies sounds closest to what I'd want as a return, but I'd have to look more into him. We've had luck with players out of college hockey.

UFA D isn't really something we have a lot of. Schenn, Hamonic, Poolman...all of the NHL calibre guys are signed longer than this year. Otherwise Myers, Hughes and OEL are probably beyond the scope of what Toronto can take on cap wise, or what we'd want to give up value wise.

It is hard to gauge the value with the pieces coming up, but Kries is of interest. With two cap dumps an half retention, there would have to be a first and probably Kries coming back, and something to off set the cap dumps and retention. I don't think I'd be able to put a proposal here that wouldn't skew towards the Canucks based on the number of assets. It would be a tough one.

I appreciate the thoughtful feedback. I don’t know that I see Holl as a cap dump, he’s a 5/6D that eats D zone starts and PK minutes, can skate and is only $2m with the right partner (as shown last year) he can be your #4. Problem is Toronto has 3 top pairing/ top 3 guys and three younger players who all need to play. Totally get Vancouver not being the ideal spot for Holl, maybe he can be flipped somewhere needed and those assets sent Vancouvers way, or if there’s room to play him if he were to bounce back he would be a bonfire asset to flip this season or next. Engvall is just for roster space on the forward group, again. He wouldn’t clear waivers so if you don’t see a use for him sell for the highest bidder. those guys are only to make the math work anyway. As for the meat of the deal how about JT @ 50% + Schenn for Knies + choice of a tier 2 prospect I listed (or really any non roster asset that’s not a 1st/2nd or the first tier prospects) + ‘22 1st +’23 2nd that becomes a 1st based on either playoff success (cup final) or re-signing.

 

[Drake1588]

Trying to trade them together (Boeser + Miller) in one move is a mistake. No one has that kind of cap space, not now and not at the trade deadline. Split them up and the Canucks would do much better.

Not now, of course. Right now, there are but a handful of meaningful trades that take place between the offseason and the trade deadline (Eichel is on LTIR, so was Tuch, and the other key piece is a prospect). Looking to deal significant salary for futures before the deadline is not going to be easy.

By and large, as GMs survey the carnage in mid-November, this is the team and that won't change much for some months.

 

[NYVanfan]

Keep everyone under 26, and rebuild. Core is solid — just stupid to think we are closer to contending than we are.
Miller is the guy to trade. He is older, cheap at $5M+ for a year and a half for a point per game guy who takes FOs, blocks, does everything basically. Cup contenders should be tripping over themselves to get him. 1st and stud young RHD is starting point, and clear position of desperate need. Bouchard, Addison, Lunkvist, Byram (LD, and maybe too much) ..those are the kind of guys id like to get

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Keep everyone under 26, and rebuild. Core is solid — just stupid to think we are closer to contending than we are.
Miller is the guy to trade. He is older, cheap at $5M+ for a year and a half for a point per game guy who takes FOs, blocks, does everything basically. Cup contenders should be tripping over themselves to get him. 1st and stud young RHD is starting point, and clear position of desperate need. Bouchard, Addison, Lunkvist, Byram (LD, and maybe too much) ..those are the kind of guys id like to get

Yeah, zero chance of getting Byram for Miller.

 

[NYVanfan]

Yeah, zero chance of getting Byram for Miller.

Figured.
Plus he’s LHD, amazing tho

 

[GreeningOil]

Elias Pettersson


Kaapo Kakko
Braden Schneider
2022 1st

This looks horrid. Kappo Krappo doesn’t move the needle

 

[Copenhagen91]

Man crap didn't take long did it?

How about for Kratsov straight up will be the reply no doubt.

Ignore this guy, only spews hot garbage

 

[Gstank]

Isles pitch for Boeser would be a package of - Wahlstrom, ‘22 #1, and Wilde? Is that enough for Canucks?

for Miller it should be a 1st and a prospect, like Bolduc, Wilde, or Raty? Don’t think Our fanbase would be into giving up Raty.

Isles need a LH top 4 d, but Barzy and Boeser could be amazing.

We all Know Wilde is an a moron why would we want him?

Realistically Vancouver would be looking at Dobson/Mayfield and a combination of picks or prospects

 

[Cogburn]

I appreciate the thoughtful feedback. I don’t know that I see Holl as a cap dump, he’s a 5/6D that eats D zone starts and PK minutes, can skate and is only $2m with the right partner (as shown last year) he can be your #4. Problem is Toronto has 3 top pairing/ top 3 guys and three younger players who all need to play. Totally get Vancouver not being the ideal spot for Holl, maybe he can be flipped somewhere needed and those assets sent Vancouvers way, or if there’s room to play him if he were to bounce back he would be a bonfire asset to flip this season or next. Engvall is just for roster space on the forward group, again. He wouldn’t clear waivers so if you don’t see a use for him sell for the highest bidder. those guys are only to make the math work anyway. As for the meat of the deal how about JT @ 50% + Schenn for Knies + choice of a tier 2 prospect I listed (or really any non roster asset that’s not a 1st/2nd or the first tier prospects) + ‘22 1st +’23 2nd that becomes a 1st based on either playoff success (cup final) or re-signing.

We just don't really have a need for Holl, that's the reason in calling him a cap dump. We (allegedly) have a ton of those 5/6 guys and improving one of them isn't really a priority, but I am personally fine taking him back to offset the cap, but I can't really think he'd be considered an asset in a trade at the moment. Engvall would be the better fit over Ritchie, but he is in a similar situation to Holl for us, having Motte coming off the IR (and only allowing 5 goals compared to our usual 7 as a result), with Highmore waiting to come back as well. The offer is generous, and I think overall value even favors us, but it is that second tier of prospects that doesn't really excite me. I think I'd like Steeves and Rubins if we were to go ahead with it. A first, a conditional first the following year, two prospects and some cap is a lot better than some of the stuff being offered.

 

[Nylanderthal]

We just don't really have a need for Holl, that's the reason in calling him a cap dump. We (allegedly) have a ton of those 5/6 guys and improving one of them isn't really a priority, but I am personally fine taking him back to offset the cap, but I can't really think he'd be considered an asset in a trade at the moment. Engvall would be the better fit over Ritchie, but he is in a similar situation to Holl for us, having Motte coming off the IR (and only allowing 5 goals compared to our usual 7 as a result), with Highmore waiting to come back as well. The offer is generous, and I think overall value even favors us, but it is that second tier of prospects that doesn't really excite me. I think I'd like Steeves and Rubins if we were to go ahead with it. A first, a conditional first the following year, two prospects and some cap is a lot better than some of the stuff being offered.

Send Dim Jim & Dubass the paperwork, it’s been a pleasure!

 

[Cogburn]

Send Dim Jim & Dubass the paperwork, it’s been a pleasure!

Dim Jim won't do that, that's part of the problem, it means he gives up his cushy job if we fail to make the playoffs. The next guy I'd have faith in doing a proper rebuild, like when Jagr was traded from New York.

 

[Legend123]

MTL will relieve you of the Pettersson and Boeser contracts

 

[Legend123]

Delete

 

[Qwijibo]

MTL will relieve you of the Pettersson and Boeser contracts

With what cap space?

 

[likash]

No trades untill Dim Jim is gone. You need to get rid of the cancer first.

 

[Cogburn]

MTL will relieve you of the Pettersson and Boeser contracts

And what does Montreal have to offer? And for both, the offer is going to need to include Romanov and Suzuki.

 

[Legend123]

And what does Montreal have to offer? And for both, the offer is going to need to include Romanov and Suzuki.

Well give u price Weber petry chariot Edmunson. The core that brought us to the finals. Take it it's the best deal you'll get

 

[PettersonHughes]

Frankly, roster shakeup wise I think it's going to be less in quantity but quality since we do have good players but it's the system itself that doesn't really work. Demko/ Hoglander/ OEL/ Horvat/ Podkolzin/ Garland are the guys that I don't want them to move, and even Hughes/ Miller/ Petey/ Boeser will cost an arm and a leg each to acquire. Knock yourselves out with the rest of the the roster depth (EDIT: seeing how each of the stars I mentioned as "will cost an arm and a leg", be prepared to give up a key roster player, a blue-chip prospect and a pick -- we're not selling for a rebuild).

Needs: young RH C in 3rd line who's strong on draws and penalty kill; strong LHD who can take on some secondary defensive responsibility and who's skilled at moving the puck out of the zone (e.g. if there's proposals from NYR I think K'Andre Miller must be in the return); also skilled, hungry, high-energy guys who will hustle (this team can't buy a goal but we need more Hoglander types to lead the charge).

And what does Montreal have to offer? And for both, the offer is going to need to include Romanov and Suzuki.

Agreed. No Suzuki, no go.

 

[Cogburn]

Well give u price Weber petry chariot Edmunson. The core that brought us to the finals. Take it it's the best deal you'll get

I mean I know you're joking, but to be clear: Absolutely not.

Not least of the reasons being we have a goalie and D, and you're asking for forwards.

 

[Cogburn]

Frankly, roster shakeup wise I think it's going to be less in quantity but quality since we do have good players but it's the system itself that doesn't really work. Demko/ Hoglander/ OEL/ Horvat/ Podkolzin/ Garland are the guys that I don't want them to move, and even Hughes/ Miller/ Petey/ Boeser will cost an arm and a leg each to acquire. Knock yourselves out with the rest of the the roster depth (EDIT: seeing how each of the stars I mentioned as "will cost an arm and a leg", be prepared to give up a key roster player, a blue-chip prospect and a pick -- we're not selling for a rebuild).

Needs: young RH C in 3rd line who's strong on draws and penalty kill; strong LHD who can take on some secondary defensive responsibility and who's skilled at moving the puck out of the zone (e.g. if there's proposals from NYR I think K'Andre Miller must be in the return); also skilled, hungry, high-energy guys who will hustle (this team can't buy a goal but we need more Hoglander types to lead the charge).



Agreed. No Suzuki, no go.

I have a similar tiering structure, although again I have to stress nothing will be done until Benning and Green are fired and replaced. I'd rather see what these players can do with a functional system and coach, but let's pretend they ask out. I'd love quality over quantity, but if it's good quantity that covers some the holes in our roster and prospect pool, I am more than open to hear an attractive offer out.

OEL only waived to come to Vancouver though, so he and Myers I see being Canucks for some time, regardless of how else things shake out.

High energy players should be prioritized, as Garland, Hoglander, and in past seasons, Motte, Highmore and Miller all played high energy, somewhat gritty styles that got results.

And yeah, no Suzuki, no go if Pettersson and Boeser are being asked about.

 

[Legend123]

I mean I know you're joking, but to be clear: Absolutely not.

Not least of the reasons being we have a goalie and D, and you're asking for forwards.

don't worry. it makes sense for us