Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[newfy]

Of all the things pertaining to this thread, the idea that young men should be responsible and have integrity is "gross"?

No its gross that saying young men are the only ones who hold responsibility for drunk sex. A woman can say yeah I'm into it lets go for it, but because shes drunk and regrets it the next day the man should be punished? The guy has to have the integrity to realise shes drunk, while hes also drunk, have the judgement to tell if shes telling the truth or not and if she decides she regrets it the next day they should get in trouble?

Both parties should have integrity and trying to say all responsibility and consequences for drunk sex falls on the guy is gross, yes. If roles were reversed and someone said the responsibility for a woman to have integrity and not be a slut when shes drunk, there would be outrage and it would be considered gross.

Why do you think its ok to absolve one gender from responsibility and not the other? Like I said, not really pertaining to this case, but in general.

 

[TheBeard]

It really doesn't.

Society has changed vastly since decades ago. Up until 1983, a husband could legally rape his wife in Canada. We've come a long way. Well, they could on January 3, 1983, but not on January 4th.

Unfortunately, hockey culture in Canada appears little different than it was in the '70's. And the amount of effort to keep it that way - on display in this thread and elsewhere - is absolutely astonishing.

Those elements in society that enable rapists and gang-rapists are greatly magnified in the hockey world here in North America. Hockey has a toxic culture problem, and it won't be addressed by those within who are so heavily invested in maintaining the status quo. And efforts to address it are greatly hampered by the denials that the problem exists in the first place. No surprise.

It transends hockey. It happens in football, basketball, baseball, and certainly perpetuated by the culture of small towns in both Canada and the US where sport is everything. This isn't an isolated incident and I imagine the number of similar-type incidences happening in environment where it's almost encouraged makes me shudder.

No its gross that saying young men are the only ones who hold responsibility for drunk sex. A woman can say yeah I'm into it lets go for it, but because shes drunk and regrets it the next day the man should be punished? The guy has to have the integrity to realise shes drunk, while hes also drunk, have the judgement to tell if shes telling the truth or not and if she decides she regrets it the next day they should get in trouble?

Both parties should have integrity and trying to say all responsibility and consequences for drunk sex falls on the guy is gross, yes. If roles were reversed and someone said the responsibility for a woman to have integrity and not be a slut when shes drunk, there would be outrage and it would be considered gross.

Why do you think its ok to absolve one gender from responsibility and not the other? Like I said, not really pertaining to this case, but in general.

Fair. I was mostly looking at your comment from this particular incident so my bad. I will say, however, there is a slightly higher onus on the guy simply because of, and I'm gonna rip off it's always sunny in philadelphia, the implication.

 

[I am toxic]

I don't think anyone is really denying that hockey has a problem, but more that society in general has problems. These kind of situations happen in a lot of sports, workplaces, industries etc. It's not exclusive to hockey. So while Hockey Canada and the NHL (as examples) have a lot of work to do to improve the culture and increase the level of accountability and respect, it's disingenuous to act like these problems do not occur elsewhere.

Nice straw man bullshit.

Nothing I wrote about hockey's toxic culture is disingenuous. I literally stated the elements exist elsewhere in society.

Strawman bullshit is disingenous.

 

[Rob Brown]

There were, what, 8 guys with her and not one of them had the maturity, integrity and common sense to assess the situation and realize how messed up it was? In this instance, if what was alleged happened then the responsibility was on the guys, every single one of them.

I didn't imply that they are innocent. The guy you quoted was responding to someone else who said 'gentlemen do not engage in group sex with a drunk teenage girl regardless of what they think she’s willing to do or wants to do' - it seemed more generalized and not specific to this Hockey Canada situation.

The guy you quoted was saying that it's not entirely on a man (or men) to be held responsible if a woman consents in the moment then changes her mind the next day. He was speaking more broadly in that both parties are responsible if both parties consent and engage in the moment.

EDIT: he responded and clarified, so yeah.

 

[TheBeard]

I didn't imply that they are innocent. The guy you quoted was responding to someone else who said 'gentlemen do not engage in group sex with a drunk teenage girl regardless of what they think she’s willing to do or wants to do' - it seemed more generalized and not specific to this Hockey Canada situation.

The guy you quoted was saying that it's not entirely on a man (or men) to be held responsible if a woman consents in the moment then changes her mind the next day. He was speaking more broadly in that both parties are responsible if both parties consent and engage in the moment.

I responded to them. I do wonder, without getting too off topic or controversial what percentage of assault or rape accusations are merely just moments of regret. I would imagine for the most part for a woman to formally press charges it has to be more than just an "I made a mistake" moment, but who knows?

 

[Rob Brown]

Nice straw man bullshit.

Nothing I wrote about hockey's toxic culture is disingenuous. I literally stated the elements exist elsewhere in society.

Strawman bullshit is disingenous.

Why do you sound so angry? Maybe I misunderstood what you said, not sure why you need to be so hostile.

I just see a lot of people constantly saying 'hockey has tons of problems' as if society and humanity in general isn't a mess.

 

[TheBeard]

Why do you sound so angry? Maybe I misunderstood what you said, not sure why you need to be so hostile.

I just see a lot of people constantly saying 'hockey has tons of problems' as if society and humanity in general isn't a mess.

This reminds me of the Mailloux thread where the same argument was brought up in terms of what is deemed acceptable and normal in society (ie showing other people private photos or videos or bragging about conquests).

 

[DaveMatthew]

Why do you sound so angry? Maybe I misunderstood what you said, not sure why you need to be so hostile.

I just see a lot of people constantly saying 'hockey has tons of problems' as if society and humanity in general isn't a mess.

This is a hockey forum, so naturally the discussion will focus more on hockey culture.

With that said, you're right. There are problems in every sport and every industry. I've worked tech my whole life. "Tech bro culture" is no better than "hockey culture". If anything, based on my experience in both... it's worse.

 

[Rob Brown]

This is a hockey forum, so naturally the discussion will focus more on hockey culture.

With that said, you're right. There are problems in every sport and every industry. I've worked tech my whole life. "Tech bro culture" is no better than "hockey culture". If anything, based on my experience in both... it's worse.

Totally agree. In this case, obviously there is a systemic issue with Hockey Canada. In general, though, I always see people on Twitter for example saying hockey culture is toxic when one person does something bad, when in reality they're likely just a bad person and would act the same way elsewhere, with varying levels of 'security'.

I work in tech as well and have certainly seen my fair share of toxic behaviour.

 

[WarriorofTime]

If the IIHF wasn't spineless, one idea would be that they'd ban Canada from all competitions until this matter is appropriately dealt with. After all, they were quick to kick Russia out for their government's invasion of a neighboring state. That would get the public to demand real action VERY quickly.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

I do wonder, without getting too off topic or controversial what percentage of assault or rape accusations are merely just moments of regret.

Fail.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Personally, even if this was all 1000% consensual, I wouldn't do it. Like I want to share a girl with 7 of my friends. No thanks.

There's that saying, as long as a couple something don't touch....

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Boy am I ever glad to have made choices in my life where this wasn't an issue for me.

Truly mind blowing stuff how this happens. 1 dude goes and has sex with consent with a gal and it turns into 7 of his friends also having sex with her and none of them were like "bruh... maybe this isn't a good idea"

Young people excessively drunk in a pack together....not gonna find a lot of inhibition there.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Could someone give some empirical evidence that women get drunk, consent and then feel regret in the morning and decide to make a rape accusation and involve the police?

This. Does. Not. Happen.

Ridiculous bullshit narrative that needs to die.

 

[WarriorofTime]

We know for a fact that at least seven of them were on the World Jr team.

The Globe and Mail met with their lawyers last week, and reported on it.

And when we read the May 26 statement from the NHL, and the May 26 statement from Hockey Canada, all the evidence shows it was at least seven from the World Jr team. Maybe eight, possibly nine, virtually certain less than ten.

Had Hockey Canada and their lawyers made any kind of attempt at an honest investigation, this would have been clear from the beginning.

I think what happened (I'm piercing together a few different accounts)

Player (CHL) that likely lives in London, ONT (this is the offseason so players would likely have returned home) met up at the bar with members of the World Junior team that were in town for the gala. He and Victim went to the hotel room where World Junior players were staying and used one of the rooms, then likely invited players from the World Juniors that were staying at the hotel that night into the room where and the sexual assault occurred. Likely all in all, of the 8 it's that 1 CHL player + 7 World Junior players.

Don't have a reason to suspect other CHL, non-World Juniors players would be there. They wouldn't be at the hotel, and only would have reason to be in London, ONT to begin with if they lived there. It's plausible from a criminal law standpoint, yes, but based on the coverage of the incident seems less likely.

 

[robertocarlos]

Didn't the whole team say, "Not me"?

 

[DueDiligence]

If the IIHF wasn't spineless, one idea would be that they'd ban Canada from all competitions until this matter is appropriately dealt with. After all, they were quick to kick Russia out for their government's invasion of a neighboring state. That would get the public to demand real action VERY quickly.

No offense, but comparing a sexual assault to a war is a little over the top.

 

[Staniowski]

If the NHL investigation (and/or any other investigation) establishes that these sexual acts took place, and that - as the girl said - she didn't consent to them, and that she was very drunk, and that she was asked to lie about whether or not she was sober.....I think it's very likely that the players involved are in big trouble with the NHL. Meaning, they'll be suspended for a very long time....or, most likely, permanently kicked out of the league.

The NHL is going to have to take it very seriously because they know a lot of people will not let them get away with doing nothing. Remember, the NHL effectively kicked Joel Quenneville out of the league, probably for life.

 

[TheBeard]

Fail.

Not really. It’s an honest question and does happen, although an overwhelming majority of the time the accusations are legitimate.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Could someone give some empirical evidence that women get drunk, consent and then feel regret in the morning and decide to make a rape accusation and involve the police?

This. Does. Not. Happen.

Ridiculous bullshit narrative that needs to die.

Your post makes no sense. The law states that drunk people can't really consent in most places.

So what you are saying definitely does happen, it's just explained a different way. The person might have 'been okay' with sex as they were drunk at the time, even though they technically did not consent.

 

[WarriorofTime]

No offense, but comparing a sexual assault to a war is a little over the top.

It's ok to punish a hockey federation for the transgressions of its nation, but punishing a hockey federation for the transgressions of a hockey federation is over the top? This would be a wakeup call and actually spring something into action, instead of everyone's preferred approach of sweeping this under the rug and hoping it blows over.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

Sorry but consent is consent. If you don't agree to it you should say no. She agreed to it and stated so in two videos, one after the incident.

It's certainly gross but this right now is the only real evidence we have and by that, this can't be considered rape. So at least until there is further evidence you should stay away from calling these guys rapists.

Fun fact: you could be slamming your significant other right now, and the minute she wants to stop, consent has been withdrawn.

Consent can change at ANY time.

And legally, consent while inebriated and/or under threat of personal safety (real or perceived) is not consent.

Even if everything was a financial transaction, that consent can be withdrawn.

Also another fun fact: consent means you don’t ask them if they were okay with everything when they’re distraught over what happened.

Bonus fun fact: threatening a person by saying that person will be in trouble if they talk to the police is also not consent.

Quadruple bonus fun fact: consent doesn’t always have to be verbal or written down.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Not really. It’s an honest question and does happen, although an overwhelming majority of the time the accusations are legitimate.

You just answered your own question.

False accusations, at least last time I checked, are statistically de minimis. The fact that so much of our discourse around sexual assault focuses on protecting men from "false accusations" that very rarely occur is extremely depressing.

Your post makes no sense. The law states that drunk people can't really consent in most places.

So what you are saying actually does happen, it's just explained a different way. The person might have 'been okay' with sex as they were drunk at the time, even though they technically did not consent.

The gist is decipherable. Women are not going to the police and accusing men of rape after drunken hook-ups unless something was seriously wrong with the encounter.

 

[TheBeard]

You just answered your own question.

False accusations, at least last time I checked, are statistically de minimis. The fact that so much of our discourse around sexual assault focuses on protecting men from "false accusations" that very rarely occur is extremely depressing.

I would say rightfully very little of the discourse focuses on false accusations.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Could someone give some empirical evidence that women get drunk, consent and then feel regret in the morning and decide to make a rape accusation and involve the police?

This. Does. Not. Happen.

Ridiculous bullshit narrative that needs to die.

Based on the allegation, the victim did not make the complaint to police. The victim told her mom, and her mom made the allegation to police. The victim (either because she was pressured by John Doe A in text messages, or because she chose to do so of her own volition), reached out to police and rescinded the complaint.

It's a technicality, but that's all we know.

Maybe the victim went to her mom and said, "I was raped last night."
Or maybe the victim went to her mom and said, "This is what happened last night, I feel bad about it," and her mom said, "You were raped."

I imagine these specific details are what the investigations will seek to uncover, because they're important.

What we can't really answer, either, is why the victim never named the players involved (from what we know, she didn't give her mom names, she didn't give police names, and she didn't give HC names).