Can Nylander crack 90 pts this season?

[IPS]

As for Willy, I know damn well the leafs can't win in the playoffs without him playing well. He isn't right now but instead of excusing his slump as many of the Marner/Matthews bashers do, I have commented that his play has been lackluster which is supported by both the eye test and the stats. I don't need to pretend that Nylander is some playoff beast that exceeds the 2 best on the team, because he doesn't. He plays well but it's not him that Tampa is worried about and everyone here knows it.

Nylander doesn't have to put up another point, he's already earned his paycheck with his current production. That's not "excusing" his slump, he gets paid by far the least out of the big 4 so he gets the privilege of the least expectations.

This applies to Marner too, but Matthews isn't even remotely close to earning his this year, and it's not "bashing him" to point this out.

 

[Notsince67]

Or if it happens year after year with various different goalies and teams it requires introspection in regard to the true quality of chances or the finishing ability of the team?

When it mattered should be re-worded, I'd say Matthews has scored in instances where it matters a lot (game 5 BOS, game 5 TB, game 4 CBJ) It's when we have an opportunity to clinch and advance they're not good enough. Nylander has as many points as those 2 combined (8 points)

"unreasonable accountability"? They're literally our 2 best players, of course they have the most accountability on this team lol. With our cap structure they are required to shoulder a substantial load

And that's great that they dominated. But, they did this in games 5-7 versus MTL, they did this game 5 versus CBJ. Dominating play doesn't mean anything when we struggle to score with the opportunity to move forward. At a certain point, you either get it done or you don't and we're far past that point. If we go 7 and lose but Matthews/Marner dominate the xGF% battle would anyone care?

These 2 are our top players, of course they're the ones Tampa is worried about. But, they're paid to work above that and produce regardless

What does being the best players have to do with anything?
You are spraying bullets in the dark and make no sense. Players have an accountability to play to their best ability full stop. Matthews and Marner were the best forwards on the ice for both teams. Saying they need to take responsibility for a loss shared with almost 20 people plus coaching and management staff is hard core nonsense.

 

[IPS]

Exactly, i dont want him with Tavares or a third line. That means Tavares on a third line or Nylander with Matthews. Dont care what Nylander wants, i think that would be best for the team.

One thing I think worth trying IMO when the forwards are healthy:

Jarnkrok-Matthews-Marner
Bunting-ROR-Nylander
Knies-Tavares-Kerfoot
Acciari-Kampf-Lafferty

Keep the superb 1st line together that's been utterly dominating lately, pray that Nylander and ROR can find some good chemistry, and bring in Knies on a good scoring line that doesn't have to worry about bad matchups.

 

[Notsince67]

Nylander doesn't have to put up another point, he's already earned his paycheck with his current production. That's not "excusing" his slump, he gets paid by far the least out of the big 4 so he gets the privilege of the least expectations.

This applies to Marner too, but Matthews isn't even remotely close to earning his this year, and it's not "bashing him" to point this out.

So by that logic, Marner has been the 3rd highest point producer in the league over the last 3 years yet is the 7th highest paid player.
Your logic is that he has done enough.

 

[leafsfan5]

What does being the best players have to do with anything?
You are spraying bullets in the dark and make no sense. Players have an accountability to play to their best ability full stop. Matthews and Marner were the best forwards on the ice for both teams. Saying they need to take responsibility for a loss shared with almost 20 people plus coaching and management staff is hard core nonsense.

If you are the best players you will have a higher degree of accountability relative to the rest of the roster, it's not hard to understand. I never said they need to take all the responsibility, of course they aren't the sole reason we've lost every year

And for Matthews and Marner, playing to their best involves producing when it matters. They're not paid to get a high xGF%, they're paid to score when we need them to. Against Tampa they definitely did a better job, but overall they're struggled in these situations

 

[Notsince67]

If you are the best players you will have a higher degree of accountability relative to the rest of the roster, it's not hard to understand. I never said they need to take all the responsibility, of course they aren't the sole reason we've lost every year

And for Matthews and Marner, playing to their best involves producing when it matters. They're not paid to get a high xGF%, they're paid to score when we need them to. Against Tampa they definitely did a better job, but overall they're struggled in these situations

This is just doublespeak. They are paid to play hockey at a high level. You just don't like it that they have and do because it disproves the hole you dug for yourself

 

[Dekes For Days]

Or if it happens year after year with various different goalies and teams it requires introspection in regard to the true quality of chances or the finishing ability of the team?

The only thing that's happened year after year is us facing one of the best goalies of that playoffs (against more than just us).
2019 - Rask is the runaway leader in total playoff GSAx as he leads his team to the cup final, +13.4 GSAx, 0.934 SV%
2020 - Korpisalo goes on a crazy run, is 6th in total playoff GSAx for the playoffs in just 9 games, 2nd best rate in the playoffs (5+ GP) behind only Price (weird how he appears there when we didn't face him, eh?), +8.0 GSAx, 0.941 SV%, set the all-time playoff save record against the eventual cup winners
2021 - Price is 2nd behind only Vasilevsky (weird how he appears there when we didn't face him, eh?) in total playoff GSAx as he leads his team to the cup final, +12.3 GSAx, 0.924 SV%
2022 - Vasilvesky is 2nd behind only Shesterkin in total playoff GSAx as he leads his team to the cup final, +15.5 GSAx, 0.922 SV%
You can want more, but let's call a spade a spade.

When it mattered should be re-worded, I'd say Matthews has scored in instances where it matters a lot (game 5 BOS, game 5 TB, game 4 CBJ) It's when we have an opportunity to clinch and advance they're not good enough. Nylander has as many points as those 2 combined (8 points)

All playoff games matter, and I'd argue that something like keeping us alive or taking a commanding position in a series can "matter more" than, for example, scoring a pulled goalie goal that doesn't mean a lot in the last minute of a lost game against Montreal. Nylander has had his moments, but overall, Matthews and Marner have been our best players in the playoffs. There's more to it than points in certain games.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

The only thing that's happened year after year is us facing one of the best goalies of that playoffs (against more than just us).
2019 - Rask is the runaway leader in total playoff GSAx as he leads his team to the cup final, +13.4 GSAx, 0.934 SV%
2020 - Korpisalo goes on a crazy run, is 6th in total playoff GSAx for the playoffs in just 9 games, 2nd best rate in the playoffs (5+ GP) behind only Price (weird how he appears there when we didn't face him, eh?), +8.0 GSAx, 0.941 SV%, set the all-time playoff save record against the eventual cup winners
2021 - Price is 2nd behind only Vasilevsky (weird how he appears there when we didn't face him, eh?) in total playoff GSAx as he leads his team to the cup final, +12.3 GSAx, 0.924 SV%
2022 - Vasilvesky is 2nd behind only Shesterkin in total playoff GSAx as he leads his team to the cup final, +15.5 GSAx, 0.922 SV%
You can want more, but let's call a spade a spade.

All playoff games matter, and I'd argue that something like keeping us alive or taking a commanding position in a series can "matter more" than, for example, scoring a pulled goalie goal that doesn't mean a lot in the last minute of a lost game against Montreal. Nylander has had his moments, but overall, Matthews and Marner have been our best players in the playoffs. There's more to it than points in certain games.

nylander has no issues scoring on those goalies so there's zero excuses for the player ahead of him.

Marner needs to put up actual points when it matters. Case closed.

 

[IPS]

The logic just truly fascinates me.

While Matthews and Marner were busy getting "goalie'd" by Price, Nylander was scoring 5x as many goals as both of them combined. And he did it playing with Kerfoot and Galchenyuk.

Is it a different version of Price for whoever steps on the ice or something? We lost that series because Matthews and Marner couldn't get it done on the score board. Stop defending them, they don't deserve it.

 

[Havoc]

That was a very weird post there indeed by Dubas' assistant

I mean I have no problem ranking Nylander 3rd, there's no shame being 3rd among those options. Those 2 paragraphs are just very odd when viewed together.

 

[Stephen]

The late season slump will be a factor in him not getting the big, big, big ticket raise. The consistency factor has always been an issue so if you go cold late in season and player and team openly talk about the struggles, that's going to be a minus.

The playoffs will be another factor that is TBD. He can always go hero there and that will make an impact as well. But don't under estimate the weight of the regular season when it comes to salary.

 

[IPS]

That was a very weird post there indeed by Dubas' assistant

I mean I have no problem ranking Nylander 3rd, there's no shame being 3rd among those options. Those 2 paragraphs are just very odd when viewed together.

He has to defend his blogger stat agenda. Nylander being our leading scorer over the last 3 playoffs doesn't comply with that, so it needs to be diminished as Nylander just "having moments" while Matthews and Marner are just dominating play but being goalie'd so hard (because Nylander obviously isn't playing against the same goalie). Then I'm guessing there's gonna be some new paragraph about sample sizes and all that jazz while him using tiny sample sizes to say we got goalie'd is perfectly ok.

 

[Menzinger]

The late season slump will be a factor in him not getting the big, big, big ticket raise. The consistency factor has always been an issue so if you go cold late in season and player and team openly talk about the struggles, that's going to be a minus.

The playoffs will be another factor that is TBD. He can always go hero there and that will make an impact as well. But don't under estimate the weight of the regular season when it comes to salary.

Some Folks were definitely letting their imaginations get carried away A career year isn't necessarily going to dramatically shift a payers worth regardless. We knew his comparables at the start of the season - and they're still his comparables today

If the Leafs do opt to extend him, he also remains one of the better chances to get more bang for your buck, compared to the other core guys imo

 

[Stephen]

Some Folks were definitely letting their imaginations get carried away A career year isn't necessarily going to dramatically shift a payers worth regardless. We knew his comparables at the start of the season - and they're still his comparables today

If the Leafs do opt to extend him, he also remains one of the better chances to get more bang for your buck, compared to the other core guys imo

We do pay a bit of a luxury tax on Matthews and Marner, and Tavares isn't really worth it. Not that Matthews and Marner don't deserve it, but Nylander has a better chance coming in cheaper on the points per dollar ratio that the other two likely won't. He just doesn't have that status.

 

[Dekes For Days]

nylander has no issues scoring on those goalies so there's zero excuses for the player ahead of him.
Marner needs to put up actual points when it matters. Case closed.

Paul had no issue scoring 2 goals on Campbell in game 7, and Kucherov/Point/Stamkos didn't get any, so he's better than Kucherov/Point/Stamkos, right?
Or maybe that's not how it works...
Marner does put up actual points when it matters. He's in fact put up more than Nylander, which facing much tougher matchups, playing much better defensively, and bringing elite PK impacts.
And the only year that Nylander outproduced Marner was the year where Marner, as the playmaker, kept setting up constant quality chances, and yet he somehow gets blamed because Hyman was coming off injury and couldn't score a goal, and Matthews was actively playing through a surgery-requiring wrist injury and hit a league-leading number of posts.

 

[leafsfan5]

This is just doublespeak. They are paid to play hockey at a high level. You just don't like it that they have and do because it disproves the hole you dug for yourself

lol you do understand that I don't necessarily disagree they played at a high level. I'm saying they're supposed to produce, not just outplay the competition. That's what the top end players are paid for

Again, if we lose in 7 this year and Matthews/Marner go scoreless but throw up a 90 xGF% no one will care. It's not enough to outplay the opposition at this point, they need to produce in these closeout games

 

[IPS]

Paul had no issue scoring 2 goals on Campbell in game 7, and Kucherov/Point/Stamkos didn't get any, so he's better than Kucherov/Point/Stamkos, right?

Is this where we scrap sample size now cause it's not convenient for your argument?

Again, if we lose in 7 this year and Matthews/Marner go scoreless but throw up a 90 xGF% no one will care.

Oh there's gonna be people who'll care, trust me.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Is this where we scrap sample size now cause it's not convenient for your argument?

What are you even talking about?

 

[IPS]

What are you even talking about?

You're literally using a one game sample size to try and support your argument. Thought that was clear but apparently not.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You're literally using a one game sample size to try and support your argument. Thought that was clear but apparently not.

Actually, I'm arguing against the use of tiny, arbitrarily-chosen samples of points with zero context to claim that a player is better, or that facts about goaltending can be ignored.
I thought the subsequent sentence you cut off of "Or maybe that's not how it works..." made that clear, but apparently not.

 

[ULF_55]

Doesn't look 100%.

Might be playing through something.

Hopefully, he continues his point price ratio in the post season.

 

[IPS]

Actually, I'm arguing against the use of tiny, arbitrarily-chosen samples of points with zero context to claim that a player is better, or that facts about goaltending can be ignored.
I thought the subsequent sentence you cut off of "Or maybe that's not how it works..." made that clear, but apparently not.

Then I guess I misinterpreted your "maybe that's not how it works line" because you are really all over the place with some of your justifications.

His "context of claim" is an entire series of Nylander producing better than Marner, you then pigeon-holed with some weird 1 game sample size like it was representative of his argument in any way.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Then I guess I misinterpreted your "maybe that's not how it works line" because you are really all over the place with some of your justifications.

Not sure what you find "all over the place". My response was pretty clear, simple, and consistent.

 

[IPS]

Not sure what you find "all over the place". My response was pretty clear, simple, and consistent.

I clearly wasn't referring to just that post, it's all your posts in the conversation.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I clearly wasn't referring to just that post, it's all your posts in the conversation.

I had 3 posts in the entire conversation, and they all said pretty much the same thing, but okay... moving on...
Nylander on pace for 89.7 points. Going to be close.