Cam Talbot - Mod warning #251

Status
Not open for further replies.

Megustaelhockey

"I like hockey" in Spanish
Apr 29, 2011
22,564
16,142
The personal attacks stop NOW.

We are really cracking down now, folks, because it's obvious that many users don't have the will power to avoid going after each other over some of the silliest things. Feel free to re-read the site rules and forum-specific rules thread if you need to.

We want people to participate in discussions, not lose their minds and get booted from them or worse.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
You dont need a star goalie to have a deep run. You need a star team with star efforts.

Philly almost took a loaded Hawks team to the friggin brink with ummm Michael Leighton.
Edmonton took Carolina to the brink with a Markkanen/Roloson combo. Carolina didnt even have Ward as their starter in the beginning of that postseason and he won the Smythe.

You dont just give up on a season when a guy gets hurt.

You improve to make up for it.

You're not replacing Lundqvist. You're doing whatever you can to keep the season intact.

Rangers backups since 2012 season: 12-6-2, 2-2-1, 12-7-1, 9-5-3 (35-20-7).....This is a good team.
 

free0717

Registered User
Apr 14, 2004
2,555
87
Old Bridge, NJ
Talbot almost every game gives up at least one soft goal against.

Islander game he gave up two. Giving Cam Credit, he has made some incredible saves.

The team needs to tighten up in front of Cam
 

NYRangers84

President's Trophy
Nov 21, 2009
1,194
0
New York
You dont need a star goalie to have a deep run. You need a star team with star efforts.

Philly almost took a loaded Hawks team to the friggin brink with ummm Michael Leighton.
Edmonton took Carolina to the brink with a Markkanen/Roloson combo. Carolina didnt even have Ward as their starter in the beginning of that postseason and he won the Smythe.

You dont just give up on a season when a guy gets hurt.

You improve to make up for it.

You're not replacing Lundqvist. You're doing whatever you can to keep the season intact.

Rangers backups since 2012 season: 12-6-2, 2-2-1, 12-7-1, 9-5-3 (35-20-7).....This is a good team.

My point exactly and that's why Lundqvist's contract was a mistake.
 

Bleed Ranger Blue

Registered User
Jul 18, 2006
19,799
1,811
Talbot has been a shade under "OK," IMO.

He should consider himself lucky that the opposing goaltender is playing worse than him most nights. I dont expect that to continue, and I don't expect the Rangers to continue scoring 4-5 goals a night.
 

Bleed Ranger Blue

Registered User
Jul 18, 2006
19,799
1,811
My point exactly and that's why Lundqvist's contract was a mistake.

So you think subtracting Lundqvist and adding a $6M player or so makes this team better? You won't find a lot of hockey people to agree with you.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

NYRangers84

President's Trophy
Nov 21, 2009
1,194
0
New York
So you think subtracting Lundqvist and adding a $6M player or so makes this team better? You won't find a lot of hockey people to agree with you.

Yes I do. And just because an opinion isn't popular doesn't mean it's wrong. I've also backed it up with some good numbers so it's not something I pulled out of my butt either.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

nyrleetch

Registered User
Aug 2, 2009
7,757
702
New York
Yes I do. And just because an opinion isn't popular doesn't mean it's wrong. I've also backed it up with some good numbers so it's not something I pulled out of my butt either.

Here's the thing. And this isn't a shot at you. Let's say we had Talbot as the starting goalie making around 1 mil. So you save 7.5 mil. What realistic 7.5 mil player are we adding that has a greater impact than Lundqvist. I still think with ease it would be Lundqvist> Talbot+
 

Bleed Ranger Blue

Registered User
Jul 18, 2006
19,799
1,811
Yes I do. And just because an opinion isn't popular doesn't mean it's wrong. I've also backed it up with some good numbers so it's not something I pulled out of my butt either.

Its still dumping a hall of fame goaltender for an unnamed position player. I get your line of thinking, but it just doesn't add up.
 

NYRangers84

President's Trophy
Nov 21, 2009
1,194
0
New York
Here's the thing. And this isn't a shot at you. Let's say we had Talbot as the starting goalie making around 1 mil. So you save 7.5 mil. What realistic 7.5 mil player are we adding that has a greater impact than Lundqvist. I still think with ease it would be Lundqvist> Talbot+

Lots of options. I'll just pull one out of thin air and say Paul Stastny. But we could have went for a couple cheaper players.
 

Miamipuck

Al Swearengen
Dec 29, 2009
7,411
2,693
Take a Wild Guess
Lundqvist: .9223, allowing one goal on every 12.9 shots on average. Talbot: .9117, allowing one goal every 11.3 shots on average. Hank saves, on average, almost 2 more shots than Talbot before allowing one this season. And that's just by the hard numbers, disregarding all other factors.

It takes 15.2 shots to score a goal on Price (MTL) this season, 11.3 to score on Quick (LAK), 10.5 to score on Lehner (OTT). The difference is not insignificant or "razor thin". Counting by "per 100 shots" makes the difference look much smaller than it actually is. Not to mention the real difference between a world class goalie and the average NHL goaltender is both will save the easy shots, but the elite goalie will save alot more of the difficult shots. Both will pad their stats with easy saves, statistically drowning the real difference between them.

I know we're basically on the same page here, but I don't like that way of counting as seems popular these days. Save percentages are not linear in a practical sense, only in theory.


Yeah we're probably on the same page saying things a bit different, certainly not enough to argue over. lol

Using the 100 shot comparison or yours are just generalities. There can be a goalie with a SV% of .922 and that doesn't necessarily means he will be a HOF caliber goalie, it's based on consistency, timing, workload amongst other things. So yeah there's more to it, there always is, there's no one number or formula. However, it's a good start to filter out noise.

I agree that sv% is definitely not linear:

http://www.hockeyabstract.com/goalie-trends

I don't have time to post a pic but you can see that over 10 game periods even a goalies sv% deviates quite a bit.


Edit: I am using long term averages, not season averages that you're using for your examples. So yeah over the course of a season, a particular goalie can be hotter than hell and skew the numbers more because of sample size. However, over the course of a career the margins are razor thin.
 
Last edited:

nyrleetch

Registered User
Aug 2, 2009
7,757
702
New York
How about keeping Anton Stralman? We'd still have a couple mill in cap space left too.

Lundqvist is still way more important than him. Rangers could have kept Stralman over Boyle, but elected for more offense and there was rumors of Stralman wife not liking NYC.

You won't find a FA at 7.5 or under that's better for the team over Lundqvist.
 

Chimpradamus

Registered User
Feb 16, 2006
16,634
5,249
Northern Sweden
Lots of options. I'll just pull one out of thin air and say Paul Stastny. But we could have went for a couple cheaper players.
Do we have a Nick Lidström? A Crosby and Malkin? A Toews and Kane? An Ovechkin and Bäckström? No, we have Hank (and hopefully Nash). The sensible thing is to build your team around your best players. The key is to have your veterans and star players perform at least up to the expectations of their salaries and then have a bunch of players overperform, a.k.a. the "bang for the buck" formula.

Just because some teams have gone all the way - or far - with cheaper goalies, it's far from meaning it's the correct way to go. How has Philly done after they had their run with Leighton? San Jose with Niemi? Even the Penguins with Fleury? The Hawks with Crawford (and their skating lineup is better than ours)? Are you telling us we should form a team like the Hawks, by outperforming the Hawks at their own game? It can't be done.

At this point, Lundqvist has proven he can be the backbone of a Stanley Cup team. It's up to the rest of the team to do their part and they didn't last year. The so called stars didn't perform, Nash did nothing, Richards not much either, some D-men underperformed when we needed them the most. We had a great so called 3rd line (more like our 1st line) in Pouliot - Brassard - Zuccarello that brought us far.

What difference does it make if we pay Hank $8.5m, or pay some other goalie $6m, if we piss that salary difference away on a player like Tanner Glass? Or pay Dan Girardi, the epitome of a one dimensional defenseman over $5m to block shots and screw up in key moments?

We were real close to win the cup last year and that the team failed had everything to do with certain players not performing up to expectations. Hank was last on the list of underperforming players, so I don't get how he can be a part of the problem on this team and how he can even be in the discussions.

Lundqvist has a hefty payroll, but he's not on an albatross contract. He still earns his payment by still being the most consistent goalie in this league. It's as simple as that.
Lundqvist is still way more important than him. Rangers could have kept Stralman over Boyle, but elected for more offense and there was rumors of Stralman wife not liking NYC.

You won't find a FA at 7.5 or under that's better for the team over Lundqvist.
Rangers management threw Strålman and that negotiation under the carpet and had no intentions of re-signing him. NYR management of him was everything but professional. It had nothing to do with Strålman's wife, but that's for a whole other discussion. Not re-signing him was a big mistake though, a huge mistake IMO. He was more valuable to this squad than both Staal and Girardi.

It's my firm belief that this team was made worse by dumping Strålman and signing an aging Dan Boyle for the same money, an idiotic management move.
 
Last edited:
Jan 8, 2012
30,674
2,151
NY
What does he have to do with Lundqvist?

I'm sure that if you try hard enough, you can connect Lundqvist's contract with ISIS.

The Anton Stralman "fiasco" is on management. They had plenty of room to keep him but instead decided to go with Boyle. There was also speculation that Stralman's wife didn't like NY.

Wait, I forgot. Lundqvist's contract doesn't allow us to sign free agents. I wonder where Boyle came from then.
 

Synergy27

F-A-C-G-C-E
Apr 27, 2004
13,742
12,660
Washington, D.C.
Do we have a Nick Lidström? A Crosby and Malkin? A Toews and Kane? An Ovechkin and Bäckström? No, we have Hank (and hopefully Nash). The sensible thing is to build your team around your best players.

While I agree with NYRangers84 in theory (please check out my posts in the Henrik thread), I don't think Stasny or Stralman are good answers to the replacement question. My feeling is that the Rangers are a little "unlucky" that their superstar, cornerstone, franchise player (yes, Henrik is all of those things, not denying it) is a goalie.

I think the gap between superstar/average centers/defenseman is larger than it is for goalies. That's the root of the argument. The Rangers CAN win with Lundqvist, they just need to get "luckier" than teams built with and paying big money to elite (I hate that word) centers and defenseman.
 

CHGoalie27

Don't blame the goalie!
Oct 5, 2009
15,991
3,225
SoFLA
So you think subtracting Lundqvist and adding a $6M player or so makes this team better? You won't find a lot of hockey people to agree with you.

Dave Bolland is making 5.5, rather him than Lundqvist? Semin?

Cam is great for what he is. He hasn't been a problem.
 

CHGoalie27

Don't blame the goalie!
Oct 5, 2009
15,991
3,225
SoFLA
Do we have a Nick Lidström? A Crosby and Malkin? A Toews and Kane? An Ovechkin and Bäckström? No, we have Hank (and hopefully Nash). The sensible thing is to build your team around your best players. The key is to have your veterans and star players perform at least up to the expectations of their salaries and then have a bunch of players overperform, a.k.a. the "bang for the buck" formula.

Just because some teams have gone all the way - or far - with cheaper goalies, it's far from meaning it's the correct way to go. How has Philly done after they had their run with Leighton? San Jose with Niemi? Even the Penguins with Fleury? The Hawks with Crawford (and their skating lineup is better than ours)? Are you telling us we should form a team like the Hawks, by outperforming the Hawks at their own game? It can't be done.

At this point, Lundqvist has proven he can be the backbone of a Stanley Cup team. It's up to the rest of the team to do their part and they didn't last year. The so called stars didn't perform, Nash did nothing, Richards not much either, some D-men underperformed when we needed them the most. We had a great so called 3rd line (more like our 1st line) in Pouliot - Brassard - Zuccarello that brought us far.

What difference does it make if we pay Hank $8.5m, or pay some other goalie $6m, if we piss that salary difference away on a player like Tanner Glass? Or pay Dan Girardi, the epitome of a one dimensional defenseman over $5m to block shots and screw up in key moments?

We were real close to win the cup last year and that the team failed had everything to do with certain players not performing up to expectations. Hank was last on the list of underperforming players, so I don't get how he can be a part of the problem on this team and how he can even be in the discussions.

Lundqvist has a hefty payroll, but he's not on an albatross contract. He still earns his payment by still being the most consistent goalie in this league. It's as simple as that.

Rangers management threw Strålman and that negotiation under the carpet and had no intentions of re-signing him. NYR management of him was everything but professional. It had nothing to do with Strålman's wife, but that's for a whole other discussion. Not re-signing him was a big mistake though, a huge mistake IMO. He was more valuable to this squad than both Staal and Girardi.

It's my firm belief that this team was made worse by dumping Strålman and signing an aging Dan Boyle for the same money, an idiotic management move.

Great from start to finish.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad