Proposal: Calgary - Edmonton

[Skobel24]

I agree with this, I think it would take a little bit more from the Oilers side. I'm not sure what the add would need to be though, Maybe Kassian?

I would love to get Kassian just to toss him on a line with Ferland or Hathaway.

 

[Dertell]

At least I can accept my teams faults rather than blaming it on the poor old goaltenders every season.

Stay on track. You were arguing about Backlund not being better than RNH at PKing.

 

[YourAverageFan*]

I wish I could come into a Flames/Oilers trade proposal thread and talk nicely with the other fan base. Like to me, the value in the proposal is very close. The only reason I wouldn't do it as a Flames fan is because we would be trading for Nurse's potential (even though he's done pretty good this season but Hamilton is still much better) and even though RNH might be a slight upgrade on Backlund, if at all, his cap hit isn't worth it and Backlund fits the Flames much better than RNH would as he is much better defensively and is one of the most underrated players in the league.

As for the one or two Oilers fans (I won't generalize your fan base based on two uninformed posters) saying Hamilton is a #4 D-man at best and has been a disappointment for the Flames, please stop. You have no idea what you're talking about. He's been our best player this season.

 

[McFlyingV]

I do, except Johnson hasn't played 20+ games where Talbot has.



When you put up an Adj.FSV% below 0.00, you the goalie are responsible for it. Last year both Ortio and Ramo had Adj.FSV% above (or at least damn close to) 0.00 and I never blamed them for their GAA or SV% even if they were below league average. This year Johnson has an Adj.FSV% above 0.00 and I don't blame him.

I blame Hiller because he was horrible last year - and his Adj.FSV% was also worst in the NHL.

I don't think Elliott is a bad goalie by any means, and he's had plenty of quality starts, but in games where has put up an RBS (Really Bad Start) there have been at multiple goals he should have made.

I don't ask for a goalie to put up 1.00 GA or .930 every night. All I ask is an adj.FSV% above 0.00 over a full sample. If that only results in a SV% of .902 like it did for Ortio last year, I am fine with that.

I also don't pretend the Flames are a great defensive team. We have our share of awful defensive players (Monahan, Wideman, Grossmann (Thank god he is gone), Engelland on the PK, Freddie Hamilton, Troy Brouwer, Shinkaruk. And even some of our good defensive players (Kulak, Bennett, Hamilton, Gaudreau) are on the young side and will make the odd mistake. Chad Johnson is outperforming expectation but Elliott is absolutely, invariably underperforming his. Elliott's xGA of 33.66 across 13 games = 2.59 is not that of a great team, but it's also not that of a player who should have a GA of 43. That's about 9 more goals he has allowed that he should have. Talbot has allowed 12 less goals than he should have. There is a huge gap that makes comparing the two team's PK by goals against pretty meaningless. Johnson and Elliott play on the same damn team, you can't pretend one hasn't been worse than an average NHL goalie so far. But I also don't think Elliott's poor play is indicative of future poor play.

Whole lot of advanced stats that mean nothing to me in regards to goaltending. I've watched the games, and Elliott has let in some bad goals like any goalie will, but he's been hung out to dry more often than probably any goalie in the league. Just because his stats don't coincide with league averages proves absolutely nothing to me. The goaltender position, and hockey in general for that matter is much more situational than advanced stats on their own can show, and even if they could (they can't) the sample is far too small to even infer that Johnson would have performed any better in those games.

I'm glad you've finally accepted some reality of the team defence. You were completely delusional about it coming into this season and the bolded was not even close to true with the way you posted in the offseason.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Whole lot of advanced stats that mean nothing to me in regards to goaltending. I've watched the games, and Elliott has let in some bad goals like any goalie will, but he's been hung out to dry more often than probably any goalie in the league.

You believe that, because you are biased and see what you want to see. He has not been held out to dry more than any other goalie. Talbot has been held out to dry much more. You see a goal that Elliott was "held out to dry" where Talbot made a miracle save, and you think nothing of the difference.

Talbot is a great goalie, as is Elliott. But if you swapped them, right now, based on their actual play, the Oilers would be in the 30th place and the Flames would be comfortably ahead of where the Oilers are righty now.

You were completely delusional about it coming into this season and the bolded was not even close to true with the way you posted in the offseason.

Really? What I posted in the offseason was that we were an around 22nd place defensive team under Hartley and we would improve with a new coach. And we have. We're an ~18th place defensive team now and that will probably get better with this upcoming home stand after a pretty dead-tired road trip. You can rationalize all you want about how our team is terrible defensively (18th place XGA may not be great but it's hardly terrible) or how individual plays cost our team not advanced stats but it's missing the point, and that is the fact that we have the only goalie with 10+ GP among the two teams with a GAA under 2.50. That doesn't happen by fluke, our team is better defensively than yours. It's just not great defensively, because we still have Dennis Wideman on our top shutdown pair, and Deryk Engelland on our top penaly kill unit, and Troy Brouwer constantly playing with a young centre who needs to have the puck not chase it all the time.

I did say in the offseason that I expect us to have a low GAA this season with improved goaltending. And I still do. A small sample of Elliott playing poorly doesn't predict that he will for the rest of the season. He hasn't been remotely Jonas Hiller bad.

 

[McFlyingV]

You believe that, because you are biased and see what you want to see. He has not been held out to dry more than any other goalie. Talbot has been held out to dry much more. You see a goal that Elliott was "held out to dry" where Talbot made a miracle save, and you think nothing of the difference.

Talbot is a great goalie, as is Elliott. But if you swapped them, right now, based on their actual play, the Oilers would be in the 30th place and the Flames would be comfortably ahead of where the Oilers are righty now.



Really? What I posted in the offseason was that we were an around 22nd place defensive team under Hartley and we would improve with a new coach. And we have. We're an ~18th place defensive team now and that will probably get better with this upcoming home stand after a pretty dead-tired road trip. You can rationalize all you want about how our team is terrible defensively (18th place XGA may not be great but it's hardly terrible) or how individual plays cost our team not advanced stats but it's missing the point, and that is the fact that we have the only goalie with 10+ GP among the two teams with a GAA under 2.50. That doesn't happen by fluke, our team is better defensively than yours. It's just not great defensively, because we still have Dennis Wideman on our top shutdown pair, and Deryk Engelland on our top penaly kill unit, and Troy Brouwer constantly playing with a young centre who needs to have the puck not chase it all the time.

I did say in the offseason that I expect us to have a low GAA this season with improved goaltending. And I still do. A small sample of Elliott playing poorly doesn't predict that he will for the rest of the season. He hasn't been remotely Jonas Hiller bad.

You can't claim bias when these "miraculous saves" you're claiming out of Talbot are seen through your own bias.

Just like you can't make that inference of "if the goalies were switched". Since you love your advanced stats so much, how exactly would the Flames be ahead of where the Oilers are now with Talbot, when they have worse advance stats?


You were hyping Elliott all off-season and how it was only goaltending and coaching holding the Flames back from being a great defensive team. Well you were wrong, and I couldn't care less about arguing who's team defence is better. The Flames are 5th last in goal against per game. That is fact. Blame the goalies, blame puck luck, whatever you'd like. The fact still remains that the Flames have been one of the worst defensive teams in the league this year.

 

[Del Preston]

You can't claim bias when these "miraculous saves" you're claiming out of Talbot are seen through your own bias.

Just like you can't make that inference of "if the goalies were switched". Since you love your advanced stats so much, how exactly would the Flames be ahead of where the Oilers are now with Talbot, when they have worse advance stats?


You were hyping Elliott all off-season and how it was only goaltending and coaching holding the Flames back from being a great defensive team. Well you were wrong, and I couldn't care less about arguing who's team defence is better. The Flames are 5th last in goal against per game. That is fact. Blame the goalies, blame puck luck, whatever you'd like. The fact still remains that the Flames have been one of the worst defensive teams in the league this year.

He loves the fancy stats, yet has little idea how to use them correctly.

It's almost as if you can't plug a few numbers into a spreadsheet, while ignoring numerous other factors, and come away with an absolute answer. Who knew?

 

[Stuzchuk]

Hamilton
Backlund



Nurse
RNH

I know that these teams are unlikely to make a deal this big with one another, but I believe that this trade would help both teams. The Flames get a young physical defenseman and add some much need offense, while the Oilers get a much needed offensive defenseman and a reliable third line center.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/burke-treliving-squash-hamilton-trade-rumours~1006917

nough said

 

[McFlyingV]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/burke-treliving-squash-hamilton-trade-rumours~1006917

nough said

I remember when MB said he wasn't going to trade Subban as well

 

[McFlyingV]

He loves the fancy stats, yet has little idea how to use them correctly.

I have no problem with him using them if he feels the need to, and I actually think he understands them quite well. Its when he makes inferences and states them as fact that it makes me laugh. Like the time he said if Gaudreau was on the Oilers last year that he would have had almost 100 points because apparently you can just take his goal to assist ratio and compare it to Hall's and then translate it over. Unfortunately things don't work that way.

 

[DropIt]

Please show me the proof that he's been better in Calgary than he was in Boston. He can't hide behind Brodie/Gio/Wideman forever. He's pretty much the Jordan Eberle of defenseman. Sure he puts up points but not much else

He doesnt have to better than he was in Boston

He has been arguably our best defenseman since about December of last season getting acclimated to the new system and team.

However your comparison of Eberle to a defenseman sure does sound like Dennis Wideman. Dennis Wideman is the Jordan Eberle of defenseman.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

You guys should hold onto your roster. Apparently it's going to be a dynasty.

I guess we'll just have to keep our junk 4/5 defencemen. Shucks