Calgary city council approves arena deal (UPD: new deal upcoming?)

[Burke the Legend]

What the author fails to disclose is the changing fact of how arenas and stadiums are now being funded in Canada.

They can talk about how the Leafs funded their own arena, but not mention that MLSE more than happily took taxpayer money to build BMO field.

Facilities are built now with taxpayer money as the levels of government want to influence how structures for public use are being built.

Yes they are living in a dream world. Every arena in North America now gets public money. They will get hurt big time if the Flames leave. As a Montrealer I know the city took a big blow when the Expos left because some small minds refused to get it done in downtown Montreal (in a province where public treasury is squandered on far stupider things) when they could've easily 25 years ago, now they are trying to bring a club back but it's not so easy to land one and it's going to cost a lot more.

 

[MNNumbers]

Yes they are living in a dream world. Every arena in North America now gets public money. They will get hurt big time if the Flames leave. As a Montrealer I know the city took a big blow when the Expos left because some small minds refused to get it done in downtown Montreal (in a province where public treasury is squandered on far stupider things) when they could've easily 25 years ago, now they are trying to bring a club back but it's not so easy to land one and it's going to cost a lot more.

I mostly agree with your ideas, however, as far as I know, Seattle's arena is completely privately funded.

If you have information otherwise, I would love to see it.

 

[TheLegend]

Confused about Calgary's collapsed arena deal? City hall reporter Scott Dippel answers some FAQs

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-new-arena-deal-terminated-1.6306502

 

[Boris Zubov]

Confused about Calgary's collapsed arena deal? City hall reporter Scott Dippel answers some FAQs

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-new-arena-deal-terminated-1.6306502

And I'm still trying to find out more information about the details of what is wrong with the roof of the Saddledome.
You have to remember, this is a very unique building. There really only was one other similar type building on Earth that had a roof like this, and it was imploded a number of years ago.

Apparently the writer is unaware the roof of the Arizona VM Coliseum has the same design as the Saddledome.

 

[Pandemonia]

Seattle has a bigger economy then Toronto.
There is a reason they wanted to be in Seattle ASAP.

Wrong.

"The regional economy — encompassing Tacoma, Everett, Seattle, Redmond and Bellevue — boasts a gross domestic product of $383 billion, according to an analysis by Greater Seattle Partners using data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis."

According to the Ontario Ministry of Finance, the gross domestic product of the Toronto CMA area in 2020 was $572 billion Canadian. Using yesterday's exchange rate of 1 USD = 1.26390 CAD, the Greater Seattle economy tops out at $484 billion Canadian.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Yes they are living in a dream world. Every arena in North America now gets public money. They will get hurt big time if the Flames leave. As a Montrealer I know the city took a big blow when the Expos left because some small minds refused to get it done in downtown Montreal (in a province where public treasury is squandered on far stupider things) when they could've easily 25 years ago, now they are trying to bring a club back but it's not so easy to land one and it's going to cost a lot more.

Interesting you say that considering 3 newest arenas in NHL (UBS, T Mobile, CPA) were all privately funded. You can include MSG renovation in there, too.

But its worth noting all of them are in markets bigger than Calgary.

 

[Mike Jones]

Interesting you say that considering 3 newest arenas in NHL (UBS, T Mobile, CPA) were all privately funded. You can include MSG renovation in there, too.

But its worth noting all of them are in markets bigger than Calgary.

Market size is irrelevant. Calgary may be seen as a small market in terms of its overall economy but hockey-wise it's a lucrative market only a fool would leave.

The same principle about privately funded arenas should be at work in Calgary too. An arena is not a common good (Only people who can pay or know people who have already paid can gain access) and neither is an NHL franchise. Both need to be paid for with private money while our taxes pay for more important things. And arena ownership groups need to pay taxes to help pay for those common good priorities and programs.

It's not complicated - unless you're a Flames owner or a Calgary media types who care nothing for taxpayers of the people and programs we pay for and support.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Market size is irrelevant. Calgary may be seen as a small market in terms of its overall economy but hockey-wise it's a lucrative market only a fool would leave.

I don't think so. Bigger markets would attract more concerts and non hockey related events that would make arenas profitable I would think.

 

[Mike Jones]

I don't think so. Bigger markets would attract more concerts and non hockey related events that would make arenas profitable I would think.

All an arena would have to do is fill 41 dates or so to replace an NHL team. I don't even think they'd have to fill all of those dates to turn a profit. If there were no NHL team the arena wouldn't have to surrender a huge amount of its revenue.

That's one of the problems here in Calgary - the Flames demand everything and refuse to leave anything for the city.

 

[TheLegend]

All an arena would have to do is fill 41 dates or so to replace an NHL team. I don't even think they'd have to fill all of those dates to turn a profit. If there were no NHL team the arena wouldn't have to surrender a huge amount of its revenue.

That's one of the problems here in Calgary - the Flames demand everything and refuse to leave anything for the city.

Replacing 41 nights might be harder than you think.

This is last year’s numbers for concerts.

https://www.pollstar.com/Chart/2021/12/arenas_992.pdf

Scotiabank ranked #135.

By comparison GRA in Glendale ranked #35 and did 10x the ticket sales dollar wise. In spite of having to compete with three other venues with similar capacity.

Glendale claims they lose money now but thinks they can replace the Coyotes with 20 events. But if the Coyotes get their new home across town in Tempe that’s going to be even more difficult.

 

[Mike Jones]

Replacing 41 nights might be harder than you think.

This is last year’s numbers for concerts.

https://www.pollstar.com/Chart/2021/12/arenas_992.pdf

Scotiabank ranked #135.

By comparison GRA in Glendale ranked #35 and did 10x the ticket sales dollar wise. In spite of having to compete with three other venues with similar capacity.

Glendale claims they lose money now but thinks they can replace the Coyotes with 20 events. But if the Coyotes get their new home across town in Tempe that’s going to be even more difficult.

Media geniuses keep telling us how many concerts we've lost because of the shape and structure of the Saddledome. If they're right then we could probably replace many, if not most of those dates.

 

[TheLegend]

Media geniuses keep telling us how many concerts we've lost because of the shape and structure of the Saddledome. If they're right then we could probably replace many, if not most of those dates.

Doesn’t matter what the media says. The Pollstar numbers tell it.

FWIW, GRA had improved drastically over 2019. They came about 40-45 places lower, but then again it was originally designed and upgraded over the past few years with concerts in mind.

 

[NorthCoast]

Market size is irrelevant. Calgary may be seen as a small market in terms of its overall economy but hockey-wise it's a lucrative market only a fool would leave.

The same principle about privately funded arenas should be at work in Calgary too. An arena is not a common good (Only people who can pay or know people who have already paid can gain access) and neither is an NHL franchise. Both need to be paid for with private money while our taxes pay for more important things. And arena ownership groups need to pay taxes to help pay for those common good priorities and programs.

It's not complicated - unless you're a Flames owner or a Calgary media types who care nothing for taxpayers of the people and programs we pay for and support.

I don't think it's totally clear cut.

I don't know about Calgary, but Ottawa is currently going through a massive invesment in lightrail and rezoning of the city to try and drive more population density in the city center to try and control the long-term costs of urban sprawl.

An investment of a few hundred mil to create a new area downtown that developers can fill up with apartments and condos sounds better to me as a tax payer than the same density having to be spread out in downtown single home neighbourhoods. Already we are seeing streets with single homes being rezoned so that when sold they will be rezoned as low-level apartments.

Edmonton seems to have experienced the same.

That being said. Katz has seen the team value go up twice as much as his investment in the stadium since they opened...so I totally understand the frustration because even if there is ROI for the city, the owners could probably fund the whole thing themselves and still see ROI.

Maybe Calgary and Ottawa should team up. Tell the teams that the we want to build the exact same stadium to create design/supplier cost efficiencies. If one of the teams want there's to be customized, the team can pay the difference. Melnyk would be down...I mean, he would if he was willing to invest any money.

 

[Mike Jones]

Maybe Calgary and Ottawa should team up.

Flames owners can do whatever they want as long as they pay for everything.

 

[NorthCoast]

Flames owners can do whatever they want as long as they pay for everything.

Haha, that's the similar to the line Melnyk gave to Ottawa.

"Sens owner can do whatever he wants as long as the city pays for everything"

 

[Mike Jones]

Haha, that's the similar to the line Melnyk gave to Ottawa.

"Sens owner can do whatever he wants as long as the city pays for everything"

Yeah but I'm serious - the Flames can and should pay for everything - it's their shiny tin can arena.

 

[NorthCoast]

Yeah but I'm serious - the Flames can and should pay for everything - it's their shiny tin can arena.

Just curious, is this purely philisophical or is the recent downturn in alberta's economy also factored into your stance?

 

[Mike Jones]

Just curious, is this purely philisophical or is the recent downturn in alberta's economy also factored into your stance?

Both. Our economy is still fragile while our city taxes are increasing and we still aren't fully funding key departments like fire and police. We also need to recreate and fully fund homeless outreach programs that also serve addicts and the mentally ill. It's tough to cover all the bases and still deal with whiny rich people demanding our money.

But maybe that's what capitalism is really all about - giving everything to rich people while the majority suffers.

 

[Mightygoose]

City has their post mortem on the colasped arena deal.

Then votes unanimously to keep going and re established the assessment committee.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6312864

Will see if a 3rd party can work with them and CSEC.

Check back on March 8

The saga will continue

 

[joelef]

Both. Our economy is still fragile while our city taxes are increasing and we still aren't fully funding key departments like fire and police. We also need to recreate and fully fund homeless outreach programs that also serve addicts and the mentally ill. It's tough to cover all the bases and still deal with whiny rich people demanding our money.

But maybe that's what capitalism is really all about - giving everything to rich people while the majority suffers.

How is corporate subsidies capitalism?

 

[Mike Jones]

How is corporate subsidies capitalism?

Technically they shouldn't be but corporate welfare is what the rich people demand and what city councils hand out like candy.

In a normally functioning capitalist system teams like the Flames would be expected to build their own arena. In our current reality they expect council to give them hundreds of millions of free money.

Apparently that's how capitalism works these days - the rich win everything while us taxpayers suffer.

 

[Mike Jones]

City has their post mortem on the colasped arena deal.

Then votes unanimously to keep going and re established the assessment committee.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6312864

Will see if a 3rd party can work with them and CSEC.

Check back on March 8

The saga will continue

Council just can't help themselves - they just have to find a way to sell out taxpayers and serve their billionaire masters.

 

[aqib]

I don't think so. Bigger markets would attract more concerts and non hockey related events that would make arenas profitable I would think.

At the same time though many bigger markets have multiple arena. New York has 4 major league arenas in a 20 mile radius, Chicago has 2 18 miles apart, LA is about to get its 3rd (not including the college venues which can hold the smaller venues), etc.

 

[CorbeauNoir]

Council just can't help themselves - they just have to find a way to sell out taxpayers and serve their billionaire masters.

The 'billionaire masters' are abandoning Canada in droves - how exactly do you sell out to them when they've decided long ago that this country is no longer open for buisness? The taxpayers are being sold out because we're running out of higher-level entities to tax anything on at all. That's the result of a federal government operating on unapologetically socialist lines, not capitalist ones.

 

[Mike Jones]

The 'billionaire masters' are abandoning Canada in droves - how exactly do you sell out to them when they've decided long ago that this country is no longer open for buisness? The taxpayers are being sold out because we're running out of higher-level entities to tax anything on at all. That's the result of a federal government operating on unapologetically socialist lines, not capitalist ones.

One of the differences between socialism and capitalism today is the capitalists want government to give them the tax money and leave taxpayers with nothing with which to fun key city services.

In a properly functioning socialist system (Which we are a long way from having here) the tax money is invested in government projects and stays within that circle. In Calgary, for example, a socialist government would build an arena (Let's call it Red Banner Arena for kicks and giggles), invite the Flames to become a tenant and then insist that the Flames become a club team run by the government.

(BTW - those old Soviet architects would have built a nicer looking arena than the tin can proposed for Calgary here)

But we live in a world that is living out a messed up version of capitalism where private entities insist on taking all the tax money for themselves. They want zero risk and all the profits. And they don't care what happens to the average person left in the dying cities around them.

The question for me is this - If the billionaires are abandoning Canada why are they insisting that they get free tax money for projects here in Canada?

If Murray Edwards wants to leave he can go and quit bugging us for money. He can let somebody else build an arena and own the Flames.