C William Nylander (2014, 8th, TOR) VI

[Cotton]

....not to mention the plethora of posts over the past year that claimed Nylander's clear superiority to other 2014 draftees because at the time he was successful in a higher league "against men".

It didn't quite shake out like that. It was more along the lines of threads popping up for a re-draft or ranking of prospects in which some agenda driven posters would omit the kid, or knock him unnecessarily, to which fans who've actually watched him play would come to his defense. Stupidity ensued.

Him playing in mens leagues and finding success is a positive, and a chip to play in an argument as to why he merits consideration for being better, or on the same level, as so-and-so in that kind of argument. It's more valid than draft pedigree alone.

 

[Rebuilt]

It didn't quite shake out like that. It was more along the lines of threads popping up for a re-draft or ranking of prospects in which some agenda driven posters would omit the kid, or knock him unnecessarily, to which fans who've actually watched him play would come to his defense. Stupidity ensued.

Him playing in mens leagues and finding success is a positive, and a chip to play in an argument as to why he merits consideration for being better, or on the same level, as so-and-so in that kind of argument. It's more valid than draft pedigree alone.

Yes it did 'shake out' exactly like that.

Yes it is a positive. However, it was NOT a club to be used against other draftees in his class who were held prisoner in junior.

They were expected to excel there and certainly Ehlers did. Without Drouin. It far more difficult to excel against players you are supposed to excel against, than it is being an 18 year old playing against men in minor leagues where you arent

Nylander had no possibility to fail . He either did well, or its wasnt 'fair' because he was an 18 year old boy.

Leaf fans chose on their own accord to ignore all that and just 'claim' Nylander was better because of his opportunity that others did not have. It was a mistake.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

He'd be doing better than Larkin especially playing on Zetterberg's wing. Nylander and Zetterberg have a perfect European style of game that would mesh well. Larkin's on-ice shooting pct is abnormally high, considering the Red Wings are one of the lowest teams in shots on goal. He's overachieving right now. It's nothing to be cocky about, he'll come back down to Earth.

Sure he would be

It didn't quite shake out like that. It was more along the lines of threads popping up for a re-draft or ranking of prospects in which some agenda driven posters would omit the kid, or knock him unnecessarily, to which fans who've actually watched him play would come to his defense. Stupidity ensued.

Him playing in mens leagues and finding success is a positive, and a chip to play in an argument as to why he merits consideration for being better, or on the same level, as so-and-so in that kind of argument. It's more valid than draft pedigree alone.

Yet, oddly enough, Leafs fans refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Larkin and Ehlers playing in the NHL while Nylander didn't make his team indicates they're currently better.

 

[bobbyt 91*]

Sure he would be



Yet, oddly enough, Leafs fans refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Larkin and Ehlers playing in the NHL while Nylander didn't make his team indicates they're currently better.

OK I followed L.D, Ehlers and obv Nylander in the preseason in order to get a solid comparison. It was evident that Nylander was at min on par with them but he wasn't being given the same opportunities. Hell they just called up Froese and not Nylander when Nylander has been the best Marlie. That in itself should show you that they were not going to give Nylander a shot.
Its becoming evident that you have an agenda to try and twist the knife and rub it in that Nylander is in the AHL when he was just as good if not better than anyother rookie that made it out side of Larkin in the preseason.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

OK I followed L.D, Ehlers and obv Nylander in the preseason in order to get a solid comparison. It was evident that Nylander was at min on par with them but he wasn't being given the same opportunities. Hell they just called up Froese and not Nylander when Nylander has been the best Marlie. That in itself should show you that they were not going to give Nylander a shot.
Its becoming evident that you have an agenda to try and twist the knife and rub it in that Nylander is in the AHL when he was just as good if not better than anyother rookie that made it out side of Larkin in the preseason.

I don't have any agenda. I have previously said that, at this point, I still think Nylander will end up a better player than Larkin or Ehlers in the long run. However, I also think that it was apparent during pre-season his game needed further maturation before he was ready to stick in the league.

I do find it hilarious the lengths Leafs fans go to to exaggerate Nylander's current level of play. Like I have said before, this is likely because of the excessive amount of time last season Leafs fans spent pumping Nylander's tires while disparaging other prospects. Continually insisting that he was a better prospect than Larkin or Ehlers because he was "playing against men" becomes an inconvenient argument now that Larkin and Ehlers are playing in the NHL while Nylander is in the minors. I think that it is this inconsistency that leads to laughable claims like Nylander would be playing in the NHL on "29 other teams" or that if Nylander were a Red Wing not only would he be in the NHL but he'd be outperforming Larkin.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Yet, oddly enough, Leafs fans refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Larkin and Ehlers playing in the NHL while Nylander didn't make his team indicates they're currently better.

I don't think you could say that Nylander was better than Larkin and Ehlers because he was in the AHL, it would be highly unfair as the others didn't have that option. However, if I'm choosing between a player that plays great in AHL and one that plays great in CHL, I'd take the former. He's one step closer to translating to the NHL.

As for who is better right now, I don't think it's wrong to say that taking a spot in the NHL indicates Ehlers and Larkin might be right now. I don't think that is really all that interesting when talking about prospects though. It should be about the long-term view.

As for Nylander, as I've said earlier in this thread the Leafs never really offered the opportunity of grabbing a spot. Despite limited numbers, Nylander was one of our best forwards, yet he didn't get a bigger look and didn't get any more games for another look when the NHL roster was taking place.

I don't think not taking opportunity into account is fair. Looking at Larkin, he also started out in a bit limited minutes (from what I recall of their preseason). When he, like Nylander, did great the team responded by giving him more games and more minutes, and he took that and ran with it. That's a clear difference in opportunity.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

This thread's a mess, and it will end up even uglier when Nylander comes up and if he performs better than Larkin and Ehlers. Chest thumpers and all..

I always thought last season's 'Nylander is excelling in the AHL/SHL' argument was a reaction towards posters on the main board who had Ehlers a number of spots higher than Nylander in the top 10-15 prospects lists, even though William was placed a spot higher on McKenzie's final 2014 list, for example.

In any case, it's only a matter of time until William's a regular. For now he has a few things to work on in the AHL, if he wants to play and excel as a top C in the NHL. Larkin/Ehlers are being brought up as wingers on decent top 6 lines, and the Leafs just don't have that luxury right now. Not sure how William would fare in that situation, not that it matters in the long run

 

[Atomos2]

Sure he would be

Maybe not the same bizarre shooting pct, but the same effectiveness.

 

[Whileee]

This thread's a mess, and it will end up even uglier when Nylander comes up and if he performs better than Larkin and Ehlers. Chest thumpers and all..

I always thought last season's 'Nylander is excelling in the AHL/SHL' argument was a reaction towards posters on the main board who had Ehlers a number of spots higher than Nylander in the top 10-15 prospects lists, even though William was placed a spot higher on McKenzie's final 2014 list, for example.

In any case, it's only a matter of time until William's a regular. For now he has a few things to work on in the AHL, if he wants to play and excel as a top C in the NHL

I've said in several threads and repeatedly that I think Nylander is a terrific prospect, and certainly deserving of being considered ahead of or on par with Ehlers, depending on what you value in a player. What I have objected to in the past was when the comparison between prospects always seemed to boil down to some Leafs fans saying that Nylander was obviously better because he was producing in a "man's league" and Ehlers' had a high potential to "bust" because he was only putting up numbers in a "pee wee league" that produced some high-scoring busts in the past.

This season I haven't changed my perspective on Nylander at all. I think he's a fantastic prospect and could end up being the best forward from the 2014 draft, even though he's in the AHL to start the season. I think my approach to assessing the prospects has been consistent.

 

[Whileee]

Maybe not the same bizarre shooting pct, but the same effectiveness.

I wonder what the reaction would have been last year if other fans had claimed that Ehlers and Larkin would have been just as effective at the AHL level as Nylander, if given the chance.

 

[Cotton]

Yes it did 'shake out' exactly like that.

Yes it is a positive. However, it was NOT a club to be used against other draftees in his class who were held prisoner in junior.

They were expected to excel there and certainly Ehlers did. Without Drouin. It far more difficult to excel against players you are supposed to excel against, than it is being an 18 year old playing against men in minor leagues where you arent

Nylander had no possibility to fail . He either did well, or its wasnt 'fair' because he was an 18 year old boy.

Leaf fans chose on their own accord to ignore all that and just 'claim' Nylander was better because of his opportunity that others did not have. It was a mistake.

Nah it didn't.

Did a couple overzealous posters use it as a measuring stick against other prospects within those arguments? no doubt they did. But lets not pretend Nylander didn't have the resume to be included in the same Bennett, Reinhart, LD group. They were drafted higher therefore Nylander was inferior, Bennett played in the playoffs and Samson and LD had a cup of coffee... So > Nylander. Then LD had success once back in juniors, so of course it was > Nylander. Any excuse, and it was constant.

Sure he would be



Yet, oddly enough, Leafs fans refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Larkin and Ehlers playing in the NHL while Nylander didn't make his team indicates they're currently better.

Why would it, the plan was to send the kids down before the preseason started. That's why they loaded up on depth so they wouldn't be in a position to have to call up any kids.

When Nylander plays in the NHL, if he's the inferior player to those two I don't think you'd find any Leaf fan denying it. Until that time there's no reason to write him off that way unless one wants to create a situation where they could eventually look stupid.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

I wonder what the reaction would have been last year if other fans had claimed that Ehlers and Larkin would have been just as effective at the AHL level as Nylander, if given the chance.

If Haydn Fleury was eligible for the AHL and could play for the Marlies he would be the best D in the minors right now.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

OK I followed L.D, Ehlers and obv Nylander in the preseason in order to get a solid comparison. It was evident that Nylander was at min on par with them but he wasn't being given the same opportunities. Hell they just called up Froese and not Nylander when Nylander has been the best Marlie. That in itself should show you that they were not going to give Nylander a shot.
Its becoming evident that you have an agenda to try and twist the knife and rub it in that Nylander is in the AHL when he was just as good if not better than anyother rookie that made it out side of Larkin in the preseason.

Nylander is a good prospect. He is not a generational prospect nor is he in the NHL excelling as his peers Larkin or Ehlers are in the NHL at the moment. I really do not understand why Leafs fans are so defensive when it is cited that others are doing well.

No one here that I have read has said Nylander is a mediocre prospect.

When I post factually he had a subpar 2 games at the Worlds last year, or he failed to force his way into the Leafs line up based on his preseason play. Some take this as a shot. On the main board we try to be more objective on each and every prospect. He still has things to prove if he is to live up to some of the hype we are reading here from Leafs fans.

Nylander is in the same boat as Ritchie. Both are playing well in the AHL. They are not at the level of Ehlers or Larkin or even Fabbri until he was hurt at this point in time. This however, is not a reflection on Nylander's potential. He remains a prospect with good potential, when we see him in the NHL we will know just how good he can be.

 

[bobbyt 91*]

Nylander is a good prospect. He is not a generational prospect nor is he in the NHL excelling as his peers Larkin or Ehlers are in the NHL at the moment. I really do not understand why Leafs fans are so defensive when it is cited that others are doing well.

No one here that I have read has said Nylander is a mediocre prospect.

When I post factually he had a subpar 2 games at the Worlds last year, or he failed to force his way into the Leafs line up based on his preseason play. Some take this as a shot. On the main board we try to be more objective on each and every prospect. He still has things to prove if he is to live up to some of the hype we are reading here from Leafs fans.

Nylander is in the same boat as Ritchie. Both are playing well in the AHL. They are not at the level of Ehlers or Larkin or even Fabbri until he was hurt at this point in time. This however, is not a reflection on Nylander's potential. He remains a prospect with good potential, when we see him in the NHL we will know just how good he can be.

The bold part is the issue. Nylander played as good or better than other kids who made their team. So to say that he isn't at their level implies that Nylander wasn't good enough to make the Leafs, Jets etc and thats just not true.
The Leafs roster should have been easier to make right???
So why then do player X, Y and Z make their team who some may say is a harder roster to crack when they played at the same level as Nylander and they got to play with way better linemates.
Its soooooooooooo OBVIOUS to most that Nylander is NHL ready but management has a clear agenda at work. They even called up Froese instead of Willy.
To me its very very very clear that they see Willy as their future 1st line C and they are doing everything in their power to shelter him.

 

[Atomos2]

I wonder what the reaction would have been last year if other fans had claimed that Ehlers and Larkin would have been just as effective at the AHL level as Nylander, if given the chance.

Would be tough to prove since Nylander was in that league for over 40 games and not playing in a league for less than 10 .

 

[Mad Brills*]

Jesus christ these threads.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The bold part is the issue. Nylander played as good or better than other kids who made their team. So to say that he isn't at their level implies that Nylander wasn't good enough to make the Leafs, Jets etc and thats just not true.
The Leafs roster should have been easier to make right???
So why then do player X, Y and Z make their team who some may say is a harder roster to crack when they played at the same level as Nylander and they got to play with way better linemates.
Its soooooooooooo OBVIOUS to most that Nylander is NHL ready but management has a clear agenda at work. They even called up Froese instead of Willy.
To me its very very very clear that they see Willy as their future 1st line C and they are doing everything in their power to shelter him.

Shanahan, Lamoriello and Babcock are very smart hockey people. If they believe Nylander needed more seasoning, then sending Nylander down to the Marlies is certainly the correct decision and an admission of this. Whether this is to develop him at Center or not.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Only so much bias or agenda pushing I can take before utilizing that ignore feature.

Anyways, I think today with Froese getting the call up over Nylander highlights and enforces what we already suspected/know. Management has said they won't yo-yo players up and down (at least young ones) so Nylander is seemingly off the table for that reason. I also think it sends a clear message they would prefer to avoid bringing him up to our NHL team which is kind of a tire fire, even though they are working hard, they aren't winning.

Anyways, that was my small contribution to the thread...

 

[Fogelhund]

Nylander is a good prospect. He is not a generational prospect nor is he in the NHL excelling as his peers Larkin or Ehlers are in the NHL at the moment. I really do not understand why Leafs fans are so defensive when it is cited that others are doing well.

No one here that I have read has said Nylander is a mediocre prospect.

When I post factually he had a subpar 2 games at the Worlds last year, or he failed to force his way into the Leafs line up based on his preseason play. Some take this as a shot. On the main board we try to be more objective on each and every prospect. He still has things to prove if he is to live up to some of the hype we are reading here from Leafs fans.

Nylander is in the same boat as Ritchie. Both are playing well in the AHL. They are not at the level of Ehlers or Larkin or even Fabbri until he was hurt at this point in time. This however, is not a reflection on Nylander's potential. He remains a prospect with good potential, when we see him in the NHL we will know just how good he can be.

There is so much ridiculous contained within these posts. Perhaps paying attention to what the management is saying about developing prospects, might, just might give a better perspective.. but then, probably not.

 

[Nithoniniel]

There is so much ridiculous contained within these posts. Perhaps paying attention to what the management is saying about developing prospects, might, just might give a better perspective.. but then, probably not.

Some posters won't let anything get in the way of their agenda-pushing, even if it means purposefully ignoring valuable information. Because what does being right matter if it's not you being right?

 

[4thline]

Wow. deja vu.

I try to change some words up from the last time this discussion was here.

Distinction:

William Nylander is an NHL ready top-9 forward...
as a complimentary offensive top 6 wing or offensive 3C

William Nylander is not..
an NHL ready impact 2-way top-6 C on a Babcock coached team

 

[Menzinger]

Nylander is a good prospect. He is not a generational prospect nor is he in the NHL excelling as his peers Larkin or Ehlers are in the NHL at the moment. I really do not understand why Leafs fans are so defensive when it is cited that others are doing well.

No one here that I have read has said Nylander is a mediocre prospect.

When I post factually he had a subpar 2 games at the Worlds last year, or he failed to force his way into the Leafs line up based on his preseason play. Some take this as a shot. On the main board we try to be more objective on each and every prospect. He still has things to prove if he is to live up to some of the hype we are reading here from Leafs fans.

Nylander is in the same boat as Ritchie. Both are playing well in the AHL. They are not at the level of Ehlers or Larkin or even Fabbri until he was hurt at this point in time. This however, is not a reflection on Nylander's potential. He remains a prospect with good potential, when we see him in the NHL we will know just how good he can be.

Based on such a small sample size of games so far this season I don't understand what tangible metric you can point to that clearly shows that Elhers or Larkin as ahead of Nylander. I can understand if this is just your gut/feeling, we all have those, but it's still just a subjective opinion.

 

[4thline]

When I post factually he had a subpar 2 games at the Worlds last year, or he failed to force his way into the Leafs line up based on his preseason play. Some take this as a shot. On the main board we try to be more objective on each and every prospect. He still has things to prove if he is to live up to some of the hype we are reading here from Leafs fans.

Let's play the pick the definition game:

Objective adj
(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Objective adj
The shield one uses to protect their own highly subjective contrarian views in a simultaneous attempt to be patronizing

Something being your opinion does not make it factual (despite agreeing with you- he was "sub-par" those two games- only because of how high he had set the bar for himself through the rest of the tournament, he was the straw that stirred swedens drink, and he was only "good" in the medal round)

 

[Leafidelity]

Someday I'll open a Nylander thread and read reports on his games, instead of agendas and chest puffing.

Someday.

 

[Leafs at Knight]

Someday I'll open a Nylander thread and read reports on his games, instead of agendas and chest puffing.

Someday.

That shall be a glorious day.