C William Nylander (2014, 8th, TOR) V [Mod warning in OP]

[Atomos2]

And Larkin did it in the playoffs and Nylander did it against worse competition...

If that's how you want to justify it then go ahead, but that doesn't make the sample size any shorter and those excuses will just turn this into a bickering match. At the end of the day though, it's all about consistency over an 82 game schedule and 42 games are a lot closer to that than 6 games are.

 

[Shwaguy*]

And Larkin did it in the playoffs and Nylander did it against worse competition...

"worse competition?" ummmm.... They both played in the AHL?

And again 42>>>>6 Games.


The fact that it was the playoffs is irrelevant.

 

[newfy]

People act like he's a sieve who doesn't know what the word means. He's not Phil Kessel. He's not at risk of failing to succeed in Babcock's system because of his 2-way ability that's for sure. .

As a center its way too early to say hes good enough to not fail in Babcock's system already. Would he be fine as a winger? I'd agree 100%. But Babcock's system puts a tonne of responsibility on a centerman defensively. Thats the reason Babcocks system worked so well in Detroit, he had 2 of the biggest two way, work horse centermen in the entire league. I'm not saying he wont ever be good enough defensively for Babcocks system (he wont be a Datsyuk or Zetterberg though) but I think if he was thrown in there right now he would get eaten up pretty good. Thats why the Leafs are doing the smart thing and letting him develop in the AHL because that part of his game isnt ready for what Babcock will ask him to do.

"worse competition?" ummmm.... They both played in the AHL?
And again 42>>>>6 Games.

The fact that it was the playoffs is irrelevant.

Small sample size obviously, but I think its safe to say third round of playoffs against the eventual finalists is tougher competition/atmosphere than middle of the season, playing bad teams mixed in. I dont think either player should have the AHL used for or against them though in that argument because both were great

 

[TimeZone]

...just remembering the endless stream of posts slagging Ehlers because he was producing in a weak junior league, not like Nylander who was producing against grown men at the AHL level. There is some irony now that Ehlers is producing at the NHL level.

These kids are both 19. Who knows what'll happen in the future. My bet is still on Nylander being the better player when all is said and done.

 

[Canucks LB]

Nylander played well, but has a lot to learn defensively to be a NHL regular.

There is a reason he is in the AHL right now, and no leafs fans it's not because the leafs are a bad team.

While he could have made the team, he was not lights out like Larkin for example was, or how virtanen was in the last few games of training camp.

Or Ehlers for that matter, Nylander is going to be a stud, and there is NOTHING wrong with developing in the AHL, I think it will do the kid wonders, and be elite in the future.

But right now the other players are simply ahead of the curve from two way play (larkin) , NHL Size/speed (Virtanen), Or puck skills (Ehlers).

Nylander is going to be just fine, and in a year from now people will see how good his AHL development was good for him.

 

[stavs*]

Nylander played well, but has a lot to learn defensively to be a NHL regular.

There is a reason he is in the AHL right now, and no leafs fans it's not because the leafs are a bad team.

While he could have made the team, he was not lights out like Larkin for example was, or how virtanen was in the last few games of training camp.

Or Ehlers for that matter, Nylander is going to be a stud, and there is NOTHING wrong with developing in the AHL, I think it will do the kid wonders, and be elite in the future.

But right now the other players are simply ahead of the curve from two way play (larkin) , NHL Size/speed (Virtanen), Or puck skills (Ehlers).

Nylander is going to be just fine, and in a year from now people will see how good his AHL development was good for him.

Well, for the sake of Nylander, he is now being developed as a center and in his first pro season doing so. I think he could quite easily make the leafs as a winger because wingers don't have nearly the same responsibilities as centers do in the defensive zone. I've seen him already this year in the Marlies opener weekend and he looks leagues ahead of everyone on the ice. The best player on the ice by a good margin in both games I saw him in. So he could easily make the NHL squad in terms of talent and skill, although the conversion to center is best done in a lower league like the AHL so he can establish his defensive game and learn his responsibilities while getting a lot of ice time. People that don't know Nylander's situation should not make comments about it.

It's great that Larkin and Ehlers are doing good in their respective NHL clubs, but Nylander is in a completely different situation with Toronto.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Speaking of Ehlers, he has 3 points and is a plus 4 with 15 shots so far.

I know Nylander is playing in the AHL and Ehlers against 'REAL MEN' so its obvious to me who the better player is.

I feel like I am having (reverse) deja vu .

This is beautifully ironic.

 

[Atomos2]

Small sample size obviously, but I think its safe to say third round of playoffs against the eventual finalists is tougher competition/atmosphere than middle of the season, playing bad teams mixed in. I dont think either player should have the AHL used for or against them though in that argument because both were great

I don't think its safe to say at all. If we use the Boston Bruins/Toronto Maple Leafs playoffs of 2013 as a reference, Gardiner as a defenceman got the same 5pts in 6 games against the eventual Stanley Cup finalists. And we can't infer anything from that right?

 

[Shwaguy*]

...just remembering the endless stream of posts slagging Ehlers because he was producing in a weak junior league, not like Nylander who was producing against grown men at the AHL level. There is some irony now that Ehlers is producing at the NHL level.

The same folks who were saying you can't say Nylander was better because of that are now saying that Ehlers is better because of that. Hypocritical.

 

[MardyBum]

Speaking of Ehlers, he has 3 points and is a plus 4 with 15 shots so far.

I know Nylander is playing in the AHL and Ehlers against 'REAL MEN' so its obvious to me who the better player is.

I feel like I am having (reverse) deja vu .

Lets not start tossing Ehlers in here. Its bad enough the Nylander thread is full of wings fans foaming at the mouth over Larkin, don't need to throw a few of the more exuberant Jets fans into the mix lol.

 

[Shwaguy*]

Nylander played well, but has a lot to learn defensively to be a NHL regular.

There is a reason he is in the AHL right now, and no leafs fans it's not because the leafs are a bad team.

While he could have made the team, he was not lights out like Larkin for example was, or how virtanen was in the last few games of training camp.

Or Ehlers for that matter, Nylander is going to be a stud, and there is NOTHING wrong with developing in the AHL, I think it will do the kid wonders, and be elite in the future.

But right now the other players are simply ahead of the curve from two way play (larkin) , NHL Size/speed (Virtanen), Or puck skills (Ehlers).

Nylander is going to be just fine, and in a year from now people will see how good his AHL development was good for him.

Yes, it is because we are a bad team and we have to market our pending UFAs. Dubas even said our top young Marlies players will graduate to full time roles in the NHL once the spots have opened up (Said it in a Twitter AMA for the Marlies).

Please don't tell us things about our own team. We definitely know better than you. Oh and Babcock even said that Nylander was our best player in his last pre-season game, so again, he was lights out, but the decision was obviously predetermined to send him down (At least for the beginning of the Season) regardless of what he did so he didn't play the last two games.

Also Virtanen isn't a better skater/faster than Nylander and Ehlers doesn't have more puck skill (Both have a metric **** tonne). And Nylander has better Offensive IQ than all of them.

 

[Koonta]

The same folks who were saying you can't say Nylander was better because of that are now saying that Ehlers is better because of that. Hypocritical.

or Ironic as was pointed out.

 

[Romang67]

The same folks who were saying you can't say Nylander was better because of that are now saying that Ehlers is better because of that. Hypocritical.

Who is saying that? The people arguing that it wasn't sacrilege to have Ehlers ranked above Nylander this summer probably aren't arguing that Ehlers should be ranked above Nylander now because Ehlers is producing in the NHL while Nylander is in the AHL. They're arguing that Ehlers should be ranked above Nylander because they think that he is, and will be, the better player.

There were, on the other hand, A LOT of posters on here arguing that Nylander was clearly superior to Larkin and Ehlers because he produced in the AHL (where Ehlers couldn't possibly play, and Larkin almost certainly was not going to play) while Ehlers and Larkin produced tremendously in lesser leagues. This talk has died down now, but it would be interesting to hear if these same posters think that Ehlers and Larkin are clearly superior at the moment.

 

[Shwaguy*]

Who is saying that? The people arguing that it wasn't sacrilege to have Ehlers ranked above Nylander this summer probably aren't arguing that Ehlers should be ranked above Nylander now because Ehlers is producing in the NHL while Nylander is in the AHL. They're arguing that Ehlers should be ranked above Nylander because they think that he is, and will be, the better player.

There were, on the other hand, A LOT of posters on here arguing that Nylander was clearly superior to Larkin and Ehlers because he produced in the AHL (where Ehlers couldn't possibly play, and Larkin almost certainly was not going to play) while Ehlers and Larkin produced tremendously in lesser leagues. This talk has died down now, but it would be interesting to hear if these same posters think that Ehlers and Larkin are clearly superior at the moment.

Nylander is still the best player/will be the best player in my view and a lot of other people's view and it has nothing to do with what league anyone is playing in. And I saw Nylander as being better because he was better, not because of Ehlers or Larkin playing in lesser leagues. If that's what you want to hear.

This will probably be a moot point at some point this season because it's pretty likely Nylander finishes the season with the Leafs anyways.

 

[Redwingsfan]

Who is saying that? The people arguing that it wasn't sacrilege to have Ehlers ranked above Nylander this summer probably aren't arguing that Ehlers should be ranked above Nylander now because Ehlers is producing in the NHL while Nylander is in the AHL. They're arguing that Ehlers should be ranked above Nylander because they think that he is, and will be, the better player.

There were, on the other hand, A LOT of posters on here arguing that Nylander was clearly superior to Larkin and Ehlers because he produced in the AHL (where Ehlers couldn't possibly play, and Larkin almost certainly was not going to play) while Ehlers and Larkin produced tremendously in lesser leagues. This talk has died down now, but it would be interesting to hear if these same posters think that Ehlers and Larkin are clearly superior at the moment.

What I didn't understand about that was that even though the most important thing last season was performing against "real men", pastrnak's success in the AHL/NHL somehow didn't count.

I think it was always flawed logic to say someone is better for making it first or playing in a better league, but it is a little funny to see that its suddenly not as important to certain people as it was last year, now that the players who were "beating up on kids" last year are in the NHL, and Nylander is still in the AHL.

 

[Shwaguy*]

What I didn't understand about that was that even though the most important thing last season was performing against "real men", pastrnak's success in the AHL/NHL somehow didn't count.

I think it was always flawed logic to say someone is better for making it first or playing in a better league, but it is a little funny to see that its suddenly not as important to certain people as it was last year, now that the players who were "beating up on kids" last year are in the NHL, and Nylander is still in the AHL.

Yet Nylander is still as good as those players in the NHL, and had those players in the NHL switched Organizations with Nylander, they would be on the Marlies (Ehlers would probably be in the NHL still simply because he could not get sent to the AHL, but if he could, that's where he'd be), while Nylander would be in the NHL.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Nylander is still the best player/will be the best player in my view and a lot of other people's view and it has nothing to do with what league anyone is playing in. And I saw Nylander as being better because he was better, not because of Ehlers or Larkin playing in lesser leagues. If that's what you want to hear.

This will probably be a moot point at some point this season because it's pretty likely Nylander finishes the season with the Leafs anyways.

I am a Leafs fan. But I would never say definitively Nylander will be better than Ehlers or Larkin or even Fabbri. Time will tell, as I think all 4 are good prospects, and I am not saying this in hindsight as this was reflected in my opinion prior to the 2014 draft.

All we know for now, is 3 of them are in the NHL as 19 year olds, while Nylander isn't. Did he deserve to make the Leafs team? Maybe. But that wasn't his decision. So we will have to wait to see what he can do as compared to his draft peers have done already in this early season.

 

[Redwingsfan]

Yet Nylander is still as good as those players in the NHL, and had those players in the NHL switched Organizations with Nylander, they would be on the Marlies (Ehlers would probably be in the NHL still simply because he could not get sent to the AHL, but if he could, that's where he'd be), while Nylander would be in the NHL.

This is all speculation. It could be that you're right, but there are no facts here. there's no way of knowing if you're right or not.

I disagree about Nylander being in the NHL if he was in the Wings organization, but thats just as much of a guess. I can't possibly know for sure.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Nylander is still the best player/will be the best player in my view and a lot of other people's view and it has nothing to do with what league anyone is playing in. And I saw Nylander as being better because he was better, not because of Ehlers or Larkin playing in lesser leagues. If that's what you want to hear.

This will probably be a moot point at some point this season because it's pretty likely Nylander finishes the season with the Leafs anyways.

And a lot of people pick Ehlers as the better player.
Both players were ranked pretty similarly in their draft years and it was pretty much a coin flip over who would go first. Some Leaf fans argued that Nylander should get the nod because he was playing against men in Sweden. Now some people are arguing that Ehlers should get the nod because of how he's performing in the NHL against the top players in the world. If the situation was reversed and Nylander was in the NHL at a good rate and Ehlers had been sent down I'm sure that would be used in arguing that Nylander is the better player right now.

 

[newfy]

I don't think its safe to say at all. If we use the Boston Bruins/Toronto Maple Leafs playoffs of 2013 as a reference, Gardiner as a defenceman got the same 5pts in 6 games against the eventual Stanley Cup finalists. And we can't infer anything from that right?

You dont think that that playoff series against the Bruins was tougher competition than the Leafs faced most nights in the regular season? I definitely do, its the playoffs against one of the top teams.

As for what we can infer from that, Gardiner has always been a tools/no tool box type of player. He has the tools to take over a game if he wants to and he was probably the Leafs best player that series.

I also wouldnt say he had the track record of success/pedigree that Larkin had when hestepped into those AHL playoffs. Like I said, small sample size but combine that with his NCAA season, WJC, WHC and the start to his NHL season and it starts to paint a pretty nice picture

 

[Whileee]

And a lot of people pick Ehlers as the better player.
Both players were ranked pretty similarly in their draft years and it was pretty much a coin flip over who would go first. Some Leaf fans argued that Nylander should get the nod because he was playing against men in Sweden. Now some people are arguing that Ehlers should get the nod because of how he's performing in the NHL against the top players in the world. If the situation was reversed and Nylander was in the NHL at a good rate and Ehlers had been sent down I'm sure that would be used in arguing that Nylander is the better player right now.

....you think???

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Yet Nylander is still as good as those players in the NHL, and had those players in the NHL switched Organizations with Nylander, they would be on the Marlies (Ehlers would probably be in the NHL still simply because he could not get sent to the AHL, but if he could, that's where he'd be), while Nylander would be in the NHL.

You don't have any basis to say this. It's just your own speculation. When Nylander is actually in the NHL and playing at the same level as the others, then start claiming he's just as good.

I also don't know why you're so confident that Nylander would be in the NHL on these other teams. His pre-season play indicated his play away from the puck needs improvement before he is ready to be an NHL regular, as does his ability to engage physically. Larkin is visibly better defensively than Nylander is right now. There is no reason to think that Nylander would have been put on the Red Wings to start the season in light of the current state of his game.

 

[Atomos2]

Who is saying that? The people arguing that it wasn't sacrilege to have Ehlers ranked above Nylander this summer probably aren't arguing that Ehlers should be ranked above Nylander now because Ehlers is producing in the NHL while Nylander is in the AHL. They're arguing that Ehlers should be ranked above Nylander because they think that he is, and will be, the better player.

There were, on the other hand, A LOT of posters on here arguing that Nylander was clearly superior to Larkin and Ehlers because he produced in the AHL (where Ehlers couldn't possibly play, and Larkin almost certainly was not going to play) while Ehlers and Larkin produced tremendously in lesser leagues. This talk has died down now, but it would be interesting to hear if these same posters think that Ehlers and Larkin are clearly superior at the moment.

The difference was, we were using respectable sample sizes. These 4 game/5 game sample sizes just makes your headshake and are a true representative on amateurish hockey evaluation. If people go back to the Olympics, Kessel was able to produce more than Crosby, Kane and all the offensive powerhouses in that amount of time. Hell our healthy scratch in Grabner had 6 points in 4 games.

I think that's the biggest head turner here, not the "better leagues" argument. Nylander has only played in 2 games FFS and this thread has gone on for like 7 pages about Larkin and Ehlers' 4/5 games.

 

[Whileee]

The difference was, we were using respectable sample sizes. These 4 game/5 game sample sizes just makes your headshake and are a true representative on amateurish hockey evaluation. If people go back to the Olympics, Kessel was able to produce more than Crosby, Kane and all the offensive powerhouses in that amount of time. Hell our healthy scratch in Grabner had 6 points in 4 games.

I think that's the biggest head turner here, not the "better leagues" argument. Nylander has only played in 2 games FFS and this thread has gone on for like 7 pages about Larkin and Ehlers' 4/5 games.

You're right, of course. Let's wait until Ehlers and Larkin have sustained their play at the NHL level before we declare them better than Nylander.

 

[Romang67]

You're right, of course. Let's wait until Ehlers and Larkin have sustained their play at the NHL level before we declare them better than Nylander.

That appears to be the only reasonable conclusion to draw from that post. If Ehlers and Larkin continue to play well in the NHL, they are undeniably better than Nylander.