C Michael McLeod - Mississauga Steelheads, OHL (2016, 12th, NJD)

[Lou is God]

Larsson is NOT an elite defenseman, not even close. He's very good and his ceiling still remains high and could be one some day, but right now, no.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Back to McLeod, interesting interview from camp:



@3:39
Q: How about your faceoff skills?
A: Yea, I was 58% last year so . . . *smirks* . . . yea it's something I take pride in *confidently smirks again*

Sounds like a very confident kid. Says he needs to work on his shot and strength. Sounds like they also want him shooting more, which I'm not sure I like. We already have 1 speedster with poor shot selection in Hall, I'd really hate to become a North - South team that shoots from anywhere.

Look at our lineup, so many guys who love to shoot:

Hall
Henrique
Palmieri
Boucher
Cammalleri
DSP
Zacha
McLeod

Blandisi, Bennett, Elias, and Zajac are probably our only guys who have that pass first mentality, and it's likely only one of them plays in the top 6.

I'm hoping Quenneville keeps his pass first mentality. Because we've got just about 0 playmaking depth for the future.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I was just going to repeat what he said, the Devils the past two drafts and off season moves have been moving to a game of speed, Brown would be a square peg trying to fit in a round hole he would be so out of place.

Nothing like Bonino with Hagelin and Kessel, right? Oh wait, Bonino is slow as a limbless sloth. Maybe its ok to mix slow skilled playmakers with speedy scorers? I mean it's only been proven successful a jillion times.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Larsson is NOT an elite defenseman, not even close. He's very good and his ceiling still remains high and could be one some day, but right now, no.

Ok, what about my evaluation was off in your opinion? Surely you have a reason for thinking that he's 'not even close' to being an elite defenseman? Because a GM who won a cup with a Norris winning defenseman seemed to think he was worth an awful lot.

 

[Lou is God]

Nothing like Bonino with Hagelin and Kessel, right? Oh wait, Bonino is slow as a limbless sloth. Maybe its ok to mix slow skilled playmakers with speedy scorers? I mean it's only been proven successful a jillion times.

You know what, I think you should go back and petition the league to redo the draft so we can pick up your precious Brown boy. Since you seem to know better than everyone.

I don't care what other teams did, I only care what the Devils are doing and the style they're trying to implement. They saw McLeod as a better fit for the Devils style than Brown, and I'm cool with it because I never been a fan of Brown.

Ok, what about my evaluation was off in your opinion? Surely you have a reason for thinking that he's 'not even close' to being an elite defenseman? Because a GM who won a cup with a Norris winning defenseman seemed to think he was worth an awful lot.

And a GM who also won a cup didn't think he was worth keeping, your logic is always quite flawed.

 

[Eric Sachs]

Disagree. Larsson is an elite defenseman, and IMO carried the pairing with Greene. Their really isn't an aspect of defensive hockey where he's not at the level of at least a top 2 dman. On a scale of 10, with 8 equivalent to the skill of a #2 dman, 9 a #1 dman, and 10 being an all star dman, I'd say his defensive skills rank as follows:

Gap control? 8.5/10
Positional discipline? 9/10
Board battles? 8.5/10
Controlled breakout? 10/10
Reading the play? 9/10
Stick work? 9.5/10
Penalty Kill? 9/10
Defending the net? 8/10

He's even begun to develop a bit of a mean streak. His gap control would be 10/10 if he had quicker feet, though he's improved immensely in that category.

Beyond that, and to the point you made in your linked post, Larsson is an extremely underrated offensive player. He's maybe the best I've seen at getting shots past the first shot blocker. He has a tremendous first pass and excels at controlled breakouts, which may not end up earning him a ton of points, but is certainly an indirect offensive catalyst. I'd say rate his offensive skills as follows:

Controlled breakout: 10/10
First pass: 9.5/10
Puck carrying: 5/10
Transition offense: 6.5/10
One timer: 6/10
Wrist shot: 8.5/10
PP QB: 7.5/10
Offensive blue line: 7/10
In zone vision: 9/10

That would put him as a 7.7 with all skills weighted equally, which would imply he's between a #2 and #3 offensive defenseman. I'd say there are roughly 30-40 true top 2 defenseman in the league, so I'd rank him around 40 in terms of pure offensive defenseman in the league. He should be good for ~35-40 points over a full season if put in a more 2 way role. 35 points would have placed him 38th among NHL defenseman this past year. For context, he's 52nd in the league in 5v5 points from defenseman over the past 2 seasons, despite playing primarily in a shut down role with some of the toughest matchups in the league.

His biggest weaknesses as a younger player were footspeed and over confidence with D zone passing when trying to relieve pressure (he was so good at controlled breakouts on big rinks outside of the NHL that it took him some time to adjust to the speed of the forecheck). But he's taking his skating from a D+ to a solid B. And the mental mistakes are a thing of the past.



The Devils could have drafted Brown, but decided to trade down a spot. That's why the comparison exists. We got in exchange a 3rd rounder which was flipped to get Beau Bennett, which made the move a bit more bearable for me, because I've always liked Bennett's game (been saying for a while that he reminds me of a slower Elias).

But then we only signed him to a 1 year contract for cheap. I would have much preferred we treated him like potentially a big part of the franchise if he can stay healthy, and given him a 4 year $3-4M deal (I think he'd take it given he signed for like 750k).

It just seemed weird that we would trade down a spot that high in the draft for what amounts to 1 year of a player that management values at only $750k.

I agree with your defensive assessment (though those rankings are a bit high across the board), I do think he's as close to elite defensively as you can be without being called that exactly. I reserve that for the top 3-5 and he's not there IMO.

Wholly disagree with your offensive rankings and they are pretty absurd. His breakouts are great but in the offensive zone, he's no where near where you think he is. He might have that potential but those rankings are humorous. A 7.5 PPQB when he's literally not had a second of ice time in that capacity in years? His shot is lackluster as well. The only area offensively where he shines is making smart passes with the puck, so I think the potential for more assists is there.. but he's never going to be a 40 pt defender.

Also, good on you for showing you know nothing about how contracts work in the NHL. Bennett signed a 1 year deal but he still has multiple years of RFA remaining afterwards so will remain in team control. How in the world can you possibly bash a team for not wanting to commit longer term to a player who hasn't shown he's worth that commitment? This was the perfect contract for the Devils. 1 year, low salary to show your stuff and if you work out, we still have rights over him for another two years. So it doesn't amount to 1 year of Bennett at all unless you're just ignoring reality and looking for reasons to be upset.

Back to McLeod, interesting interview from camp:



@3:39
Q: How about your faceoff skills?
A: Yea, I was 58% last year so . . . *smirks* . . . yea it's something I take pride in *confidently smirks again*

Sounds like a very confident kid. Says he needs to work on his shot and strength. Sounds like they also want him shooting more, which I'm not sure I like. We already have 1 speedster with poor shot selection in Hall, I'd really hate to become a North - South team that shoots from anywhere.

Look at our lineup, so many guys who love to shoot:

Hall
Henrique
Palmieri
Boucher
Cammalleri
DSP
Zacha
McLeod

Blandisi, Bennett, Elias, and Zajac are probably our only guys who have that pass first mentality, and it's likely only one of them plays in the top 6.

I'm hoping Quenneville keeps his pass first mentality. Because we've got just about 0 playmaking depth for the future.

Are we really now upset at him for being confident? Christ sake. He's ****ing 18 years old.

The big downside to his game is his shot. Asking him to shoot more is asking him to keep developing. It would be a terrible thing if he develops a good shot, I guess. Can't have players we don't like improving their weaknesses..

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You know what, I think you should go back and petition the league to redo the draft so we can pick up your precious Brown boy. Since you seem to know better than everyone.

You seem upset that I am voicing my opinion, which wasn't even directly related to Brown, it was in response to your discussion with Captain Time, where you said a player like Brown wouldn't fit with our speed first approach. To which I replied with an example of where you can have a very fast and effective team with a few slow methodical playmakers.

I've never claimed that I know better than everyone. I'm merely asking questions and poking holes in some of the shallow logic that's getting tossed around. This is a discussion board, is it not? A place to discuss hockey and debate opinion?

I don't care what other teams did, I only care what the Devils are doing and the style they're trying to implement. They saw McLeod as a better fit for the Devils style than Brown, and I'm cool with it because I never been a fan of Brown.

Understand, I'm not trying to tell you what to think or how to feel. I'm just expressing (and defending) my opinion. Well it's pretty much all defense at this point.

And a GM who also won a cup didn't think he was worth keeping, your logic is always quite flawed.

Shero didn't think Larsson was worth keeping? That's ridiculous. Wasn't it reported that he would only trade Larsson if it was Hall coming back? Sounds like he placed a tremendous amount of value on Larsson. Moreso than almost everyone expected.

 

[HBK27]

The Devils could have drafted Brown, but decided to trade down a spot. That's why the comparison exists. We got in exchange a 3rd rounder which was flipped to get Beau Bennett, which made the move a bit more bearable for me, because I've always liked Bennett's game (been saying for a while that he reminds me of a slower Elias).

But then we only signed him to a 1 year contract for cheap. I would have much preferred we treated him like potentially a big part of the franchise if he can stay healthy, and given him a 4 year $3-4M deal (I think he'd take it given he signed for like 750k).

It just seemed weird that we would trade down a spot that high in the draft for what amounts to 1 year of a player that management values at only $750k.

It's a "prove it" contract for Bennett - show that he can stay healthy and perform in the Devils system. If he can, he can earn more - if not, than at least he's not taking a spot that could go a prospect next year and beyond.

Bennett is still an RFA after this season, so it's not like they'd only get 1 year out of him unless he totally busts.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I was just going to repeat what he said, the Devils the past two drafts and off season moves have been moving to a game of speed, Brown would be a square peg trying to fit in a round hole he would be so out of place.

Brown isn't really slow though. I don't know why people think Browns skating is bad.Not to mention it's only going to get better as he develops.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I agree with your defensive assessment (though those rankings are a bit high across the board), I do think he's as close to elite defensively as you can be without being called that exactly. I reserve that for the top 3-5 and he's not there IMO.

Wholly disagree with your offensive rankings and they are pretty absurd. His breakouts are great but in the offensive zone, he's no where near where you think he is. He might have that potential but those rankings are humorous. A 7.5 PPQB when he's literally not had a second of ice time in that capacity in years? His shot is lackluster as well. The only area offensively where he shines is making smart passes with the puck, so I think the potential for more assists is there.. but he's never going to be a 40 pt defender.

He scored at a 40 point pace during the second half of 14-15 before being put in a shut down role in 15-16. What's great about his shot is how often he gets it past the first shot blocker. It seems like he gets it through very often, a lot like Rafalski. You're probably right on the in zone passing skills, he's better at in zone 'shot passes' but he doesn't zip it around to open forwards like some D can.

Also, good on you for showing you know nothing about how contracts work in the NHL. Bennett signed a 1 year deal but he still has multiple years of RFA remaining afterwards so will remain in team control. How in the world can you possibly bash a team for not wanting to commit longer term to a player who hasn't shown he's worth that commitment? This was the perfect contract for the Devils. 1 year, low salary to show your stuff and if you work out, we still have rights over him for another two years. So it doesn't amount to 1 year of Bennett at all unless you're just ignoring reality and looking for reasons to be upset.

I'm quite aware of his contract situation, and if Bennett is able to put together the type of season he has the potential to, we'll be resigning him for 4M / year. It's not a huge deal, but it was something I disagreed with a bit. Just because I disagree with something, doesn't mean I'm 'looking for reasons to be upset', especially considering how I'm not upset in the least. Lol.

Are we really now upset at him for being confident? Christ sake. He's ****ing 18 years old.

The big downside to his game is his shot. Asking him to shoot more is asking him to keep developing. It would be a terrible thing if he develops a good shot, I guess. Can't have players we don't like improving their weaknesses..

I'm not bashing him at all. I think it's a good thing he's so confident.

I don't know what the intent was when the asked him to shoot more. I wouldn't assume they'd want him shooting more in games unless they wanted him to do that at the NHL level. He can get plenty of shooting practice at practice.

Some of you guys seriously need to cool it with the persecution complex. I'd also appreciate less personal attacks.

 

[Edmonton East]

Disagree. Larsson is an elite defenseman, and IMO carried the pairing with Greene. Their really isn't an aspect of defensive hockey where he's not at the level of at least a top 2 dman. On a scale of 10, with 8 equivalent to the skill of a #2 dman, 9 a #1 dman, and 10 being an all star dman, I'd say his defensive skills rank as follows:

Gap control? 8.5/10
Positional discipline? 9/10
Board battles? 8.5/10
Controlled breakout? 10/10
Reading the play? 9/10
Stick work? 9.5/10
Penalty Kill? 9/10
Defending the net? 8/10

He's even begun to develop a bit of a mean streak. His gap control would be 10/10 if he had quicker feet, though he's improved immensely in that category.

Beyond that, and to the point you made in your linked post, Larsson is an extremely underrated offensive player. He's maybe the best I've seen at getting shots past the first shot blocker. He has a tremendous first pass and excels at controlled breakouts, which may not end up earning him a ton of points, but is certainly an indirect offensive catalyst. I'd say rate his offensive skills as follows:

Controlled breakout: 10/10
First pass: 9.5/10
Puck carrying: 5/10
Transition offense: 6.5/10
One timer: 6/10
Wrist shot: 8.5/10
PP QB: 7.5/10
Offensive blue line: 7/10
In zone vision: 9/10

This is ludicrous. I mean, come on man. I think the Larsson/Hall trade could actually go either way in a couple years, so I'm not one of those "we robbed EDM!!!" types. I'm also one of the biggest fans of Larsson. Yet I STILL find your offensive assessment absolutely ridiculous. There are literally no stats to back up anything you posted. Realistic assessment:

Controlled breakout: 7/10
First pass: 7/10
Puck carrying: 4/10
Transition offense: 6/10
One timer: 5/10
Wrist shot: 6/10
PP QB: NA/10 because of nearly 0 sample size, yet you came up with 7.5?
Offensive blue line: 7/10
In zone vision: 7/10

Oh, and that "best at getting shots past the first blocker" comment is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo incorrect.

 

[Lou is God]

You seem upset that I am voicing my opinion, which wasn't even directly related to Brown, it was in response to your discussion with Captain Time, where you said a player like Brown wouldn't fit with our speed first approach. To which I replied with an example of where you can have a very fast and effective team with a few slow methodical playmakers.

It is when you brought up Brown out of the blue once again yesterday:

Would the same logic not apply to Brown vs McLeod?

I've never claimed that I know better than everyone. I'm merely asking questions and poking holes in some of the shallow logic that's getting tossed around. This is a discussion board, is it not? A place to discuss hockey and debate opinion?

You're quite insistent that the Devils should have gone with Brown and you won't drop it, like I said it's freaking annoying, what is done is done and no amount of *****ing or whining is going to bring the player you wanted to the Devils.

Understand, I'm not trying to tell you what to think or how to feel. I'm just expressing (and defending) my opinion. Well it's pretty much all defense at this point.

That's fine, but I don't care for "what they should have done", I'm not the type of guy who is going to try to put the toothpaste back into tube and rehash it all the time.

Shero didn't think Larsson was worth keeping? That's ridiculous. Wasn't it reported that he would only trade Larsson if it was Hall coming back? Sounds like he placed a tremendous amount of value on Larsson. Moreso than almost everyone expected.

I'm just using your logic, it goes both ways, you make the argument that you're right because a certain GM, who won a cup, wants him when you don't realize the man trading him away also won a cup. You can't have it one way.

 

[gifted88]

Look at our lineup, so many guys who love to shoot:

Hall
Henrique
Palmieri
Boucher
Cammalleri
DSP
Zacha
McLeod

Blandisi, Bennett, Elias, and Zajac are probably our only guys who have that pass first mentality, and it's likely only one of them plays in the top 6.

I'm hoping Quenneville keeps his pass first mentality. Because we've got just about 0 playmaking depth for the future.

Is Zacha a shoot first type of player? I thought the knock on him was he owns a good release but didn't use it enough?

 

[Toasterleavins*]

Perfectly allowed to have opinions Whiskey, whats supremely irritating is you acting like yours are better than everyone else's. You just wont let it go. These players are still young, and still developing.

Wasn't it recently proven that just drafting straight ihs scouting rankings (or whatever its called) outperforms half of the teams scouting departments?

But you clearly have some sort of crystal ball and know better.... Enough already. If you are right and Barzal and Brown end up better picks well, you get to gloat about how smart you are.

Ohh and the HF boards poll is rich. This places opinions on prospects are worth about as much as the finest outhouse toilet paper you can buy.

 

[Cheddabombs]

I'm not the only one who thinks Barzal and Brown would have been the better pair of players to walk away with when compared to Zacha and McLeod. In fact, I'm in the overwhelming majority.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2105467



I've been low on Hall and extremely high on Larsson for the better part of their careers. Why would I all of a sudden change my opinion? Check out my post history if you don't believe me.



Those are your examples? 2 picks that the overwhelming majority of unbiased fans disagreed with, and a trade where we lose arguably my favorite Devils player for a 1 dimensional 60-65 point winger with a history of injury? You got me, I'm just a rebel here to disrupt the circle jerk. Sorry to be such a nuisance to everyone here in rainbow land.

Here is a post of mine from earlier in this thread, I'm hardly always against the grain on Devils decisions. I just call it as I see it.

lol I can already feel myself becoming agitated about this conversation, just gonna stop while I can.

 

[TheGroceryStick]

future 1C

I like him; but he needs ALOT of things to go right for him to be a 1C in the NHL; I think he levels out as a strong 2C. Maybe something similar to a Kesler.

 

[Jerzey Devil]

No offense whiskey but you're coming off as a little obsessive about this. The decision was made, time to move on. Let's just wait to see how our guys develop now.

 

[Torts]

No offense whiskey but you're coming off as a little obsessive about this. The decision was made, time to move on. Let's just wait to see how our guys develop now.

x2!

 

[BondraTime]

Perfectly allowed to have opinions Whiskey, whats supremely irritating is you acting like yours are better than everyone else's. You just wont let it go. These players are still young, and still developing.

Wasn't it recently proven that just drafting straight ihs scouting rankings (or whatever its called) outperforms half of the teams scouting departments?

But you clearly have some sort of crystal ball and know better.... Enough already. If you are right and Barzal and Brown end up better picks well, you get to gloat about how smart you are.

Ohh and the HF boards poll is rich. This places opinions on prospects are worth about as much as the finest outhouse toilet paper you can buy.

Wouldn't that make him right in this case?

 

[Lou is God]

This is from former Habs scout Grant McCagg who was kind enough to post this in the Devils forum:

Congratulations on your selection of McLeod.....for the record I used to scout in the NHL for the Habs and have several good scouting contacts in the league... all of them right up until the end of the season liked McLeod as a top 6 player in this draft..but a few concerns crept in at the U-18's...he didn't have a great tournament offensively. I had him ranked third overall for the draft as late as March.....by the time I compiled my final rankings he was 7th overall. For me being able to get him at 12th overall while picking up an extra pick was a major coup. He works much harder than Brown on and off the ice..there are no question marks for him going forward IMO.

He was still in a lot of scouts' top 10...I'm not talking about "independent scouts" and the likes of Cox or Button..but NHL scouts...personally I think the knocks on his "offensive upside" have been overblown just as they were for Dylan Larkin...I think his game will translate well to the NHL..and at the very least he'll be a number 2 center for the Devils who will play a very complete game and be one of the best faceoff men and penalty killers in the league. I think you guys got a gem. I saw him live a couple of times this year where he simply blew me away..one of my favourite prospects to watch in the decade that I've been scouting professionally.

 

[Brooklyndevil]

Brown isn't really slow though. I don't know why people think Browns skating is bad.Not to mention it's only going to get better as he develops.

Brown is a good skater for someone his size. His problem is his first couple of steps. That he needs to work on.

 

[LordNeverLose]

Back to McLeod, interesting interview from camp:



@3:39
Q: How about your faceoff skills?
A: Yea, I was 58% last year so . . . *smirks* . . . yea it's something I take pride in *confidently smirks again*

Sounds like a very confident kid. Says he needs to work on his shot and strength. Sounds like they also want him shooting more, which I'm not sure I like. We already have 1 speedster with poor shot selection in Hall, I'd really hate to become a North - South team that shoots from anywhere.

Look at our lineup, so many guys who love to shoot:

Hall
Henrique
Palmieri
Boucher
Cammalleri
DSP
Zacha
McLeod

Blandisi, Bennett, Elias, and Zajac are probably our only guys who have that pass first mentality, and it's likely only one of them plays in the top 6.

I'm hoping Quenneville keeps his pass first mentality. Because we've got just about 0 playmaking depth for the future.

As an Islander fan, I can promise you nothing is worse than having too many pass-first players. I'd much rather have a team that I felt was just throwing it on net too much rather than having to watch Bailey and Strome refuse to shoot the puck from right on top of the crease.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

As an Islander fan, I can promise you nothing is worse than having too many pass-first players. I'd much rather have a team that I felt was just throwing it on net too much rather than having to watch Bailey and Strome refuse to shoot the puck from right on top of the crease.

You don't want too many of one type or the other. You need balance. Devils have too many guys who shoot from anywhere and everywhere. That's why Clowe was so good when he played with us. Slow, but a great patient playmaker. You really just need a couple of those guys in your top 6 to top 9.

Devils really don't have anyone who I'd truly consider a patient, confident playmaker who won't likely miss the half the season with injury.

You look at all the top teams in the league and they all have at least one supremely talented, patient playmaker. Elias and Gomez played that role for the Devils for years, and we have never replaced them.

Hawks - Kane
Kings - Kopitar
Penguins - Malkin, Crosby, Bonino
Sharks - Thornton
Bruins - Krejci
Ducks - Getzlaf
Lightning - Triplets + Drouin
Capitals - Backstrom, Kuznetsov
Stars - Spezza, Benn
Wings - Datsyuk
Flyers - Giroux
Islanders - Tavares
Blues - Stastny

My Devils don't have anyone on that level in terms of pure patience and playmaking ability.

 

[BomaLightDevils]

Brown is a good skater for someone his size. His problem is his first couple of steps. That he needs to work on.

Isn't that been said before on players taken in the first round like McCarron, Tinordi, Mcllrath..!

You have to be really really good now a days as a forward to be able to follow the game and dominate to be a top 6 player. I can't emphasis enough on how important speed has become and I think that the gm's who realize this to late is only going one way and that is to the podium first comes draft day.!

No matter how big and strong you are, no matter how skilled you are, if you can't keep up you don't have a chance to utilize your body and your skills. Remember that the button of a NHL lineup now a days is build with speedy players opposed to big and strong as it was years ago.

The funny thing about Ottawa taking brown is the don't play the style that suits he's game. Putting him in a team like LA or San Jose would give him a better chance at succeeding.

 

[Benttheknee]

Regarding Brown...

No matter how big and strong you are, no matter how skilled you are, if you can't keep up you don't have a chance to utilize your body and your skills. Remember that the button of a NHL lineup now a days is build with speedy players opposed to big and strong as it was years ago.

http://www.thedraftanalyst.com/prospects/logan-brown/

"He can be a joy to watch, using above-average speed but a powerful long stride and reach to protect the puck off the rush"

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2...aft-profile-2016-nhl-draft-prospects-rankings

"He is a very good skater for someone his size as well. He has a smooth stride, and is much faster than you might expect. You don't often see him get to top gear, but when he does, it is impressive. He also has quick lateral movement that allows him to confuse defenders and get around them."

http://lastwordonsports.com/2016/04/13/logan-brown-scouting-report-2016-nhl-draft-14/
"Brown is a good skater for his size. He shows good speed and acceleration for a player his size. He gets in quickly on the forecheck, pressuring defenders into making mistakes, and taking the body if they don’t move the puck quickly enough. He also has better edge work and agility than you would expect from a player with his height. Brown has a powerful stride and can fight through checks and get to the front of the net on the rush. He has good lower body strength and balance."


Overall it seems like he is a decent skater.

I have read/heard that he never trained as his dad wanted him to finish growing before adding muscle. That will impact his speed and acceleration.