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C Joseph Veleno - Saint John Sea Dogs, QMJHL (2018, 30th, DET)

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I think around 10th is the right spot for him, so 8th-12th range.

A lot of Ds should be top10. Then forwards, Svechnikox, Zadina, Wahlstrom lock in front imo, Tkachuk should be in front But he is in front of Hayton, Farabee, Mcleod and Kupari now imo, maybe one of them in front of him.
 
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schnapshot said:
Always PPG, never improving?

1st season: 0.69 PPG -> 15 years old
2nd season: 0.88 PPG
3rd season: 1.25 PPG, 1.75 PPG with Drummondville

But yeah ok, he never improved :laugh:
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Under a PPG to under a PPG to a PPG with Saint John. Wow, how impressive. Truly the makings of a Top 10 pick. There’s barely any progression for a player as fast and as good of a stickhandler as him. His shot sucks and he lacks offensive awareness. He has the makings to be a Cogliano type since he’s good defensively, which isn’t bad, but if I’m picking 10-12, it’s not enough. You can’t build around a player like that.
 
There's a whole bunch of crap in this thread, but let's start with some basic facts.

Since Joe's last game for SJ, his former linemates (Safin and Gursoy) have 13 GP, 6 G, 4A and 17 GP, 4G, 1A stat lines. That is with the chance to play with an NHL drafted centre (Pare) who has put up 19GP, 4G, 10A in the same span.

He was -10 on a team that struggled at the best of times and was abysmal at the worst, while having to face all the best players because Saint John's 2nd line wasn't producing at all.

Drummondville is still weaker on paper than Halifax, but Veleno has caught Zadina overall in points and will likely overtake him in PPG very soon (1.26 vs 1.44, but Veleno has 27 in his last 12 since he has found chemistry).

He could easily finish 2nd in the Q in scoring (Barre-Boulet is way ahead already).

He's made Drummondville into a contender for the title. With Veleno, Drummondville 13-3 with losses to 1st overall BLB, soon to be 3rd overall Victoriaville, and a loss to Gatineau the night of his first game.

He's not a better Desharnais. Desharnais is an offensive player only. Veleno could potentially be a better Toews. That's why he was talked about as a potential 1st overall. That's why he got exceptional status. He is a born leader, who excels in his own end at a level that normally doesn't exist in junior and has gotten his swagger back offensively.

I can't honestly remember a draft eligible at this level that had as little support as Joe did in the first half and it obviously weighed on him.

Depending on what he can do in the playoffs, Joe could easily move back into the top 5 of this draft and could even allow the pundits to start talking about a top 2 (though he'd be a lame-duck 2 like Kessel or Duchene where he really can't catch Dahlin).
 
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le_sean said:
Under a PPG to under a PPG to a PPG with Saint John. Wow, how impressive. Truly the makings of a Top 10 pick. There’s barely any progression for a player as fast and as good of a stickhandler as him. His shot sucks and he lacks offensive awareness. He has the makings to be a Cogliano type since he’s good defensively, which isn’t bad, but if I’m picking 10-12, it’s not enough. You can’t build around a player like that.
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Played with Povorozniouk (5 on 5) and with a mixed bag of bottom 6 wingers at 15 and no PP time. Played with Ward, Reginato, Green in the first half of last year (with 2nd PP time on a team that ran one unit primarily) and got Dove-McFalls in the 2nd half).

Ostap Safin is arguably the best linemate he's had, but Gursoy is about the same as the other linemates he had, and this year he has to do this with literally no secondary offense which means that he faces the 5 best players every opponent has.
 
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Of all the first time draft eligible CHL prospects, the current PPG leaders are:

Svechnikov 1.48
Zadina 1.44
E Bouchard 1.29
Veleno 1.26
 
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schnapshot said:
Thanks for all the info.

Some are quick to **** on the guy by stat watching.
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I’ve watched him, thanks. I see a player that does a lot but doesn’t get points. It’s a red flag for me. When you go from having exceptional player status to barely being able to score 10 goals a season in the worst CHL league, it’s unimpressive. Sorry but if you have to put into context why players don’t produce in the CHL, it’s a problem. Good players find a way and the Q f***ing sucks.
 
le_sean said:
I’ve watched him, thanks. I see a player that does a lot but doesn’t get points. It’s a red flag for me. When you go from having exceptional player status to barely being able to score 10 goals a season in the worst CHL league, it’s unimpressive. Sorry but if you have to put into context why players don’t produce in the CHL, it’s a problem. Good players find a way and the Q ****ing sucks.
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And yet here he is with 28 points in 16 games since being traded.
 
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le_sean said:
Insulated on a Top 5 offensive team in the CHL.
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The Voltigeurs' leading scorer is barely a PPG.

At this rate, Veleno might lead the team in scoring by the end of the year.

If being on an offensively potent team plays against him, how about Zadina that has Fortier and Somppi? Or is that irrelevant then, for some reason?
 
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Lebowski said:
The Voltigeurs' leading scorer is barely a PPG.

At this rate, Veleno might lead the team in scoring by the end of the year.

If being on an offensively potent team plays against him, how about Zadina that has Fortier and Somppi? Or is that irrelevant then, for some reason?
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The team as a whole and their system are great offensively. Zadina is not a good example, this is his 1st season in NA and he’s an elite player. He was great before that. Veleno hasn’t shown these type of numbers until put into an ideal situation. This is his 4th Q season, not comparable at all.
 
le_sean said:
The team as a whole and their system are great offensively. Zadina is not a good example, this is his 1st season in NA and he’s an elite player. He was great before that. Veleno hasn’t shown these type of numbers until put into an ideal situation. This is his 4th Q season, not comparable at all.
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This is his 3rd Q season, for one.

It's also funny how not producing quite as much as one could have hoped in a dreadful environment is held against him, while producing on a better team is yet again held against him. Sounds like you want to have it your way no matter what.

If he can keep up a nigh 2PPG pace to end the year, there's nothing keeping him from being a top 10, even top 5 pick, especially considering how weak this draft is at center.
 
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Lebowski said:
This is his 3rd Q season, for one.

It's also funny how not producing quite as much as one could have hoped in a dreadful environment is held against him, while producing on a better team is yet again held against him. Sounds like you want to have it your way no matter what.

If he can keep up a nigh 2PPG pace to end the year, there's nothing keeping him from being a top 10, even top 5 pick, especially considering how weak this draft is at center.
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Great, I’m just saying I’m wary of him. He’d have to show more than just half a season of great production for me to pick him in the Top 10 of this draft. I mean those ahead are defencemen that produce just as much in better leagues and forwards with actual elite production over the course of entire seasons. I wouldn’t reach for him just because he’s a centre nor do I think you can build around him.
 
ah yes the old he wasn't putting points up because he was bad but now that he is it's because everyone else is good.

no middle ground there at all
 
le_sean said:
Great, I’m just saying I’m wary of him. He’d have to show more than just half a season of great production for me to pick him in the Top 10 of this draft. I mean those ahead are defencemen that produce just as much in better leagues and forwards with actual elite production over the course of entire seasons. I wouldn’t reach for him just because he’s a centre nor do I think you can build around him.
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You realize Veleno has the same amount of points as Zadina right now, right?

In 6 more games, but still.
 
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or the fact that Veleno is 4 inches taller and 30 pounds or so heavier than Cogliano and plays centre instead of wing, and is a child.
 
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le_sean said:
I’ve watched him, thanks. I see a player that does a lot but doesn’t get points. It’s a red flag for me. When you go from having exceptional player status to barely being able to score 10 goals a season in the worst CHL league, it’s unimpressive. Sorry but if you have to put into context why players don’t produce in the CHL, it’s a problem. Good players find a way and the Q ****ing sucks.
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- As it stands today, 4 of the top 10 scorers in the NHL are Q products.

- Mat Barzal 'barely' scored 10 goals a season in 3 of his 4 years in the WHL..
 
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I think he will go top5 if he keeps up his current play.

I also think if he finishes very strong, surpassing Zadina is doable.

People are seriously underrating that kid because of his slow start on a horrible team. He is easily the best center prospect in this draft.
And its not like he is coming out of nowhere. He had atleast as high of a pedigree as Zadina did before the start of the season.
If he ultimately outperforms Zadina thanks to a torrid pace and amazing play down the stretch after getting traded, I don't see why you would take Zadina over the guy playing the more valuable position.

And yeah I don't think the difference in skill level is that big. Zadina is the more skilled of the two but Veleno makes that up via his defensive play and the value of his position IMO.
Its just that Veleno really got underrated because he did not live up to expectations earlier on in the season on a terrible team.
 
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covfefe said:
- As it stands today, 4 of the top 10 scorers in the NHL are Q products.

- Mat Barzal 'barely' scored 10 goals a season in 3 of his 4 years in the WHL..
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Uhh okay, how many top defencemen and goaltenders are from the Q? I’m not denying there’s offensive talent, it sucks defensively. It’s made for offensive players, there should be good production.

Mat Barzal increased his PPG significantly every season and he played for crappy offensive teams. Poor comparison.
 
le_sean said:
Uhh okay, how many top defencemen and goaltenders are from the Q? I’m not denying there’s offensive talent, it sucks defensively. It’s made for offensive players, there should be good production.

Mat Barzal increased his PPG significantly every season and he played for crappy offensive teams. Poor comparison.
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Because Veleno wasn't playing for crappy teams?

Barzal had 12 goals, 57 points in 44 games in his draft year.

Valeno has 13 goals, 59 points in 47 games, and he's trending way up since the trade.

As far as increasing his PPG significantly, he went from 0.92 in his D-1 to 1.30 in his D season.

Veleno went from 0.89 in his D-1 to 1.26 so far in his D season.

Which makes your statement earlier that Veleno "has had no offensive progression" even more laughable. Or did Barzal not have an offensive progression either? Which is it?
 
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Lebowski said:
Because Veleno wasn't playing for crappy teams?

Barzal had 12 goals, 57 points in 44 games in his draft year.

Valeno has 13 goals, 59 points in 47 games, and he's trending way up since the trade.

As far as increasing his PPG significantly, he went from 0.92 in his D-1 to 1.30 in his D season.

Veleno went from 0.89 in his D-1 to 1.26 so far in his D season.

Which makes your statement earlier that Veleno "has had no offensive progression" even more laughable. Or did Barzal not have an offensive progression either? Which is it?
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That’s the whole point of the argument. Below a PPG to below a PPG to a PPG to above during 15 games on an offensive powerhouse. You’re judging Veleno’s offensive production on 15 friggin games. Barzal never played for an offensive powerhouse yet he always increased his totals every year and became an elite offensive player in the WHL.
 

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