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C Joseph Veleno - Saint John Sea Dogs, QMJHL (2018, 30th, DET)

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Draft is not weak but it is weak at C. I don't think you can realistically justify drafting a guy top 15 in a draft who can't even score 30 goals in his draft year in the Q.
 
Weird criticism. Plenty of great players didn't crack 30 goals either, and plenty of trash players have.
 
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goonybird said:
Weird criticism. Plenty of great players didn't crack 30 goals either, and plenty of trash players have.
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Exactly. Scouting is an educated guess by everyone, including all those pro scouts. There's no science in figuring out what kid will be a bust or not as there are more first round busts than success's.

There's also the fact that the Q has probably the worst defense and goaltending in the past decade so dangling and scoring on crap means nothing.

Best age IMO to see exactly what you are getting is around the 22 year old range.
 
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sharknado said:
Exactly. Scouting is an educated guess by everyone, including all those pro scouts. There's no science in figuring out what kid will be a bust or not as there are more first round busts than success's.

There's also the fact that the Q has probably the worst defense and goaltending in the past decade so dangling and scoring on crap means nothing.

Best age IMO to see exactly what you are getting is around the 22 year old range.
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I've seen the 'Q is high scoring shit fest' argument a lot, but I rarely see any difference in scoring between the CHL leagues. Perhaps there's more disparity between the top+bottom (hence Veleno "struggling" for SNB) but the gross result is the same, at least.

Anyways, I think he's a Michael McLeod-type. Probably a bit slower, but also more talented. Will probably be drafted around the same position.
 
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WeThreeKings said:
Draft is not weak but it is weak at C. I don't think you can realistically justify drafting a guy top 15 in a draft who can't even score 30 goals in his draft year in the Q.
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Barzal never scored 30 goals in the Dub and only scored 10 in his final year in junior. He’s going double that total in the NHL this year and possibly get to 25 goals.

I think Veleno will be similar to Barzal. Not talking production wise but dropping in the draft for odd reasons.
 
SI90 said:
Barzal never scored 30 goals in the Dub and only scored 10 in his final year in junior. He’s going double that total in the NHL this year and possibly get to 25 goals.

I think Veleno will be similar to Barzal. Not talking production wise but dropping in the draft for odd reasons.
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There's a very distinct difference between the two. Barzal is a far better skater and has a better shot, he didn't use it as much as he should and still doesn't, but it's a weapon.

I liked Veleno last year, he displayed some smarts, poise with the puck but when it comes down to it, his shot isn't a menace, whether he doesn't use it or he doesn't. And you can't actually see a progression in his stats other than being traded to a better team with a coach known for getting offense out of his players.

Veleno can carve out a career as a 2nd line center who plays a complete game, but without a menacing shot, there's just no way you have top line C upside. I've said the same for many prospects in the past. McLeod was another one, being billed as a potential top 5 pick by some scouts, but when you watched him, you could see that he just never actually beat a goalie clean. That severely hampers your potential.

Guys like Backstrom rarely shoot but you have to respect it because he has a very deadly shot. But if you're a center who can't shoot, like a Scott Gomez, eventually your production dries up because guess what? I'm cutting your passing lanes and daring you to beat my goalie. As you progress levels, it becomes a lot harder to do because the goalies are a lot better.

I'm not saying he's a bad prospect, I'm just saying you're going to have a hard time justifying picking a guy as high as you're talking about, when he's not a threat to rip it by the goalie.
 
Captain97 said:
If the habs don't win the lotto, I thinlk they'll take veleno. Decent size, good defensively and has offensive upside, plus he is a local guy.
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Depending on where they draft Veleno he could be a great pick for them.

Again, depending from what rank they will be drafting.
 
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99664987 said:
Come on. His smarts and defensive play is already fully there, and he has excellent skating and body positioning. And you’d drop him for his shot? That is by far the easiest aspect a player can improve in.
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I've been obsessed with the draft and the scouting aspect of hockey for a long, long time. A draft eligible player who doesn't have a good shot? Rarely, if ever, do they go the other way. It may get slightly better, but if they aren't a threat to be a goal scorer at the junior level, they don't suddenly get better at beating better goalies, with less time, and better defenders.

If you're drafting top 10, you should be shooting for a top line, top pairing, player.. not a middle sixer. Veleno hasn't flashed top line upside, he just hasn't.
 
schnapshot said:
Desharnais with more size and a shot would actually be good... Had two seasons of 50+ pts playing C for Mtl. I wanted him gone mainly because he was too small to win his battles and too poor a sniper to be a real offensive threat.
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He's one of the worst defensive forwards I think I've seen play in the NHL. Decent player though because he puts up points. Don't like him at center either.

Veleno probably already defends better and is better at center than Desharnais.
 
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99664987 said:
Come on. His smarts and defensive play is already fully there, and he has excellent skating and body positioning. And you’d drop him for his shot? That is by far the easiest aspect a player can improve in.
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Explosiveness in skating tends to be the area players make the most gains.

I don't think the mechanics behind a shot are the easiest thing to improve. The question is if it is a strength issue (improvable) or overall mechanics (much harder to fix).

He still gives me Mikey McLeod or Coglaino vibes more than someone like Barzal. If you want to talk about highly valued youngers, he's closer to Larkin than Barzal in my opinion. I don't think he sees the angles and passes as quick as the higher-end offensive guys. He seems like a safe bet to be a middle-sixer, but I don't feel confident about him being a first liner. If he keeps up this production he'll probably sneak back into the top 10 due to this drafts complete lack of centers, and bad teams generally being desperate to fill those holes.
 
93LEAFS said:
Explosiveness in skating tends to be the area players make the most gains.

I don't think the mechanics behind a shot are the easiest thing to improve. The question is if it is a strength issue (improvable) or overall mechanics (much harder to fix).

He still gives me Mikey McLeod or Coglaino vibes more than someone like Barzal. If you want to talk about highly valued youngers, he's closer to Larkin than Barzal in my opinion. I don't think he sees the angles and passes as quick as the higher-end offensive guys. He seems like a safe bet to be a middle-sixer, but I don't feel confident about him being a first liner. If he keeps up this production he'll probably sneak back into the top 10 due to this drafts complete lack of centers, and bad teams generally being desperate to fill those holes.
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Pavel Datsyuk.
Joe Thornton.
Wayne Gretzky.

Three guys who weren't known for having a "menacing" shot.
 
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Redder Winger said:
Pavel Datsyuk.
Joe Thornton.
Wayne Gretzky.

Three guys who weren't known for having a "menacing" shot.
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Gretzky had an insanely accurate slap shot. But, you can pick examples of players who succeeded while being weak at an aspect of the game. I highly doubt Joe Veleno ends up grouped with any of those players.
 
93LEAFS said:
Gretzky had an insanely accurate slap shot. But, you can pick examples of players who succeeded while being weak at an aspect of the game. I highly doubt Joe Veleno ends up grouped with any of those players.
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So do I.
I would never say an 18 year old is going to be the next one of those guys.

At the same time, it's pretty dumb to say a guy needs a "menacing shot" to be a top line center.

We didn't see much evidence of Datsyuk having any kind shot until he started showing a dangerous wrister and backhander as he got stronger -- after he'd already been in the NHL for awhile.

I've only seen highlights of Veleno - and everyone is a star in highlights.
But the scouting reports I read plus the highlights make me think he's going to be a pretty good NHLer.
 
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Redder Winger said:
So do I.
I would never say an 18 year old is going to be the next one of those guys.

At the same time, it's pretty dumb to say a guy needs a "menacing shot" to be a top line center.

We didn't see much evidence of Datsyuk having any kind shot until he started showing a dangerous wrister and backhander as he got stronger -- after he'd already been in the NHL for awhile.

I've only seen highlights of Veleno - and everyone is a star in highlights.
But the scouting reports I read plus the highlights make me think he's going to be a pretty good NHLer.
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Except I've never said you need a menacing shot to be an elite NHL center. But, someone like Thornton was always a strong goal scorer in junior. Thornton scored 71 goals in 125 games over 2 years. In comparison Veleno has scored 23 over 91 games at the same ages. Marner isn't known for having a strong shot but scored 57 goals at the same ages in 127 games.

I actually pointed to much more than his shot on why I don't think he projects as an elite NHL center. I don't think he creates or sees passing lanes open up quick enough to exploit them at the next level. That will be the thing in my eyes that holds him back from being a top tier pro and probably put him in the middle six. If you aren't a good goal scorer, you need to be a very strong play-maker to excel as a top line center.
 

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