C Joseph Veleno - Saint John Sea Dogs, QMJHL (2018, 30th, DET)

[Lebowski]

That’s the whole point of the argument. Below a PPG to below a PPG to a PPG to above during 15 games on an offensive powerhouse. You’re judging Veleno’s offensive production on 15 friggin games. Barzal never played for an offensive powerhouse.

And Veleno is producing at a better pace on said "powerhouse" than even Zadina on his own powerhouse team.

What now?

It's not like Veleno is leaching off any top player anyway. His 1.75PPG so far in Drummondville is far ahead everyone else on that team.

 

[le_sean]

And Veleno is producing at a better pace on said "powerhouse" than even Zadina on his own powerhouse team.

What now?

It's not like Veleno is leaching off any top player anyway. His 1.75PPG so far in Drummondville is far ahead everyone else on that team.

Did Veleno grow up in the Czexh Republic and come over to a new country to a new rink size to a new league as a teenager? Did he have to move in with people he doesn’t know and go to a new school in a language that is second to his? Didn’t realize they went through the same thing. Oh and did Veleno dominate in tournaments against his peers despite playing for a crappy national team? Same situation.

 

[goonybird]

Uhh okay, how many top defencemen and goaltenders are from the Q? I’m not denying there’s offensive talent, it sucks defensively. It’s made for offensive players, there should be good production.

Mat Barzal increased his PPG significantly every season and he played for crappy offensive teams. Poor comparison.

It's great offensively, shit defensively, but the same number of goals are scored as every other CHL league on a yearly basis.

This makes for interesting calculus.

 

[Lebowski]

Did Veleno grow up in the Czexh Republic and come over to a new country to a new rink size to a new league as a teenager? Did he have to move in with people he doesn’t know and go to a new school in a language that is second to his? Didn’t realize they went through the same thing. Oh and did Veleno dominate in tournaments against his peers despite playing for a crappy national team? Same situation.

So Zadina is excused for his crappy stats, as per your logic since he's on a stacked team, because he's an import now?

Since Veleno is doing even better than Zadina statistically now that he has the chance to play on a stacked team himself, I'd expect those things to even out, no? How do you work out your math exactly?

What If Veleno had been playing all along for a powerhouse team? What if he went from an 80 to a 90 to a 100 points pace in his first three junior seasons? I really can't grasp your logic. He's playing at a friggin 120+ pace since the trade, can't you at least give him that?

 

[Leon Draisaitl]

Did Veleno grow up in the Czexh Republic and come over to a new country to a new rink size to a new league as a teenager? Did he have to move in with people he doesn’t know and go to a new school in a language that is second to his? Didn’t realize they went through the same thing. Oh and did Veleno dominate in tournaments against his peers despite playing for a crappy national team? Same situation.

Unless he's behind a year, he shouldn't be in school anymore. Should have graduated last year.

 

[93LEAFS]

Uhh okay, how many top defencemen and goaltenders are from the Q? I’m not denying there’s offensive talent, it sucks defensively. It’s made for offensive players, there should be good production.

Mat Barzal increased his PPG significantly every season and he played for crappy offensive teams. Poor comparison.

For whatever reasons, QMJHL scoring has historically been less transferable to the NHL than the OHL and the WHL. Most models that try to value CHL scoring puts Q scoring the lowest.

Now, for whatever reason WHL scoring has gone insane this year.

 

[WTFMAN99]

For whatever reasons, QMJHL scoring has historically been less transferable to the NHL than the OHL and the WHL. Most models that try to value CHL scoring puts Q scoring the lowest.

Now, for whatever reason WHL scoring has gone insane this year.

Lack of quality goaltenders being produced by the CHL (overall) in the last several years?

 

[93LEAFS]

Unless he's behind a year, he shouldn't be in school anymore. Should have graduated last year.

Plus, I'm not sure how many imports actually decide to continue their schooling. I'd assume for some kids like Svechnikov who lack basic english it would be almost impossible to pass the curriculum.

I think in Sarnia that Yakupov and Galchenyuk were training all day with Galchenyuk's dad despite being 16 and 17. Your free to officially drop out of school at 16 in most provinces. Exceptions are Ontario, Manitoba and New Brunswick which I'm pretty sure is a newer development which don't allow you to drop out until 18.

 

[93LEAFS]

Lack of quality goaltenders being produced by the CHL (overall) in the last several years?

I don't think its that. I think the WHL it is probably the emergence of a couple very stacked offensive teams blowing up in one year.

The disparity between leagues I would believe is just caused by the pool that these leagues draw from. Ontario has a massive player pool, while has had decent success pulling in Americans from the states allocated to them. The Q, and to a lesser extent the WHL have had a lot tougher time getting Americans to report. Who is the last big name American to show up in the Q? Adam Erne or Charlie Coyle?

 

[le_sean]

So Zadina is excused for his crappy stats, as per your logic since he's on a stacked team, because he's an import now?

Since Veleno is doing even better than Zadina statistically now that he has the chance to play on a stacked team himself, I'd expect those things to even out, no? How do you work out your math exactly?

What If Veleno had been playing all along for a powerhouse team? What if he went from an 80 to a 90 to a 100 points pace in his first three junior seasons? I really can't grasp your logic. He's playing at a friggin 120+ pace since the trade, can't you at least give him that?

Try doing all of that as an adult and think it doesn’t take a toll. Now imagine a kid.

You’ve also completely ignored the point of Zadina’s fantastic production in tournaments against kids older than he is. Also stop saying that Veleno is outproducing him. Zadina has 20 more goals in 6 less games.

 

[covfefe]

Uhh okay, how many top defencemen and goaltenders are from the Q? I’m not denying there’s offensive talent, it sucks defensively. It’s made for offensive players, there should be good production.

Mat Barzal increased his PPG significantly every season and he played for crappy offensive teams. Poor comparison.

It's not a comparison, but if that's how you want to construe it, feel free. It's pretty obvious that you are in way over your head at this point and simply like to be the loudest person in the room, regardless of the facts and context. Get off of it - we get that you don't like him as a prospect...you are adding less than zero value to this thread

 

[Lebowski]

Try doing all of that as an adult and think it doesn’t take a toll. Now imagine a kid.

You’ve also completely ignored the point of Zadina’s fantastic production in tournaments against kids older than he is. Also stop saying that Veleno is outproducing him. Zadina has 20 more goals in 6 less games.

I'm talking about Veleno's production since the trade, which you've downplayed saying he's being insulated on a "stacked team". He's still producing at a better rate than Zadina since the trade. That's a fact. You don't get to isolate part of the stats that fits your narrative. Veleno is a playmaking center, I don't think anyone expect him to score more goals than Zadina.

As for tournament stats, they both lead their team in points at the most recent U18.

 

[Frk It]

Veleno and Hayton are interesting to me, because it seems like there is such a huge range of different opinions on them.

I’ve been saying for a few months I wouldn’t take a center in the top 15 of this draft, so
I’m anxious to see where they go, and if they can prove that theory of mine wrong in time.

 

[Dominance]

Did Veleno grow up in the Czexh Republic and come over to a new country to a new rink size to a new league as a teenager? Did he have to move in with people he doesn’t know and go to a new school in a language that is second to his? Didn’t realize they went through the same thing. Oh and did Veleno dominate in tournaments against his peers despite playing for a crappy national team? Same situation.

I hope you realize that you come across both as having some odd vendetta against Veleno, and as desperately clutching at straws.

 

[le_sean]

It's not a comparison, but if that's how you want to construe it, feel free. It's pretty obvious that you are in way over your head at this point and simply like to be the loudest person in the room, regardless of the facts and context. Get off of it - we get that you don't like him as a prospect...you are adding less than zero value to this thread

I like him as a prospect, but not as a Top 10 because of his last 15 games in a new situation.

And nice shot just because your argument was shot down. You made a weak attempt at saying the Q is good because they have some players in the Top 10 of scoring this year. Zero context. Then make a lame comparison to Barzal just because, again no context.

But I’ll concede if it makes everyone happy. Veleno is the best centre since McDavid and will outproduce him in the NHL. You guys win.

 

[le_sean]

I'm talking about Veleno's production since the trade, which you've downplayed saying he's being insulated on a "stacked team". He's still producing at a better rate than Zadina since the trade. That's a fact. You don't get to isolate part of the stats that fits your narrative. Veleno is a playmaking center, I don't think anyone expect him to score more goals than Zadina.

As for tournament stats, they both lead their team in points at the most recent U18.

Since the trade. So 15 games. Right.

And what are you talking about? Zadina was the leader in the U18 in 16-17, Veleno in 17-18. A year difference. Zadina was in the U20 as a 17 year old and was a goal per game. But right, same stats.

This is a useless debate and we won’t convince each other of anything.

 

[Dominance]

I like him as a prospect, but not as a Top 10 because of his last 15 games in a new situation.

And nice shot just because your argument was shot down. You made a weak attempt at saying the Q is good because they have some players in the Top 10 of scoring this year. Zero context. Then make a lame comparison to Barzal just because, again no context.

But I’ll concede if it makes everyone happy. Veleno is the best centre since McDavid and will outproduce him in the NHL. You guys win.

Well, at least you succeeded in providing a crystal-clear example of straw man fallacy to us all...

 

[le_sean]

Well, at least you succeeded in providing a crystal-clear example of straw man fallacy to us all...

While you’ve literally added nothing to the discussion the entire time except coming in at the end and make a sweeping generalization like you’re the Almighty.

 

[Dominance]

While you’ve literally added nothing to the discussion the entire time except coming in at the end and make a broad statement like you’re the Almighty.

Fair enough, but I’ve already watched posters in here repeat facts over and over again only for you to brush them off with backwards and/or baseless opinions.

 

[le_sean]

Fair enough, but I’ve already watched posters in here repeat facts over and over again only for you to brush them off with backwards and/or baseless opinions.

The fact is true, he’s produced extremely well but the other fact is true, it’s only been 15 games in an ideal situation. We are both right and are all talking in circles with pointless examples and comparisons.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

He reminds me of Matt Duchene, but I think he could get nine games, but other than that needs to spend an extra year in the Q.

 

[newfy]

I think people are looking at his raw numbers too much when they say he hasnt improved from year to year. Year to year makes a huge difference in team quality in junior. Veleno went from about the 6th best offensive player on st Johns last year to the best htis year. Team quality took a hit and so his raw numbers didnt change much, but his relative numbers did.

Now that hes on a stacked team, hes producing with people to play with. I dont think hes necessarily a top 10 guy (if he stays this productive he may slide back up there though) but if I was a team with 2 firsts or picking aywhere after 15 I dont think I would be scared to draft him

 

[schnapshot]

Typical... When he has average production on a bad team it’s because he’s overrated and isn’t a game-changer, and when he outproduces everyone on a stacked team, it’s only 15 games and it’s because he plays on an offensive powerhouse.

So basically, he never gets credit...

 

[goonybird]

Typical... When he has average production on a bad team it’s because he’s overrated and isn’t a game-changer, and when he outproduces everyone on a stacked team, it’s only 15 games and it’s because he plays on an offensive powerhouse.

So basically, he never gets credit...

It happens.

Also, if an ok player has few points it means he's great defensively, and if a great player has many points he's terrible defensively.

If a player is short, he's probably fast!

If a player has lots of points and his linemates do too, every single one of them is a product of one other on the line and analysis stops there. No multi-variant considerations plz.

If a player has 20 goals in the WHL, he's better than a Q player who scores the same number.

 

[schnapshot]

It happens.

Also, if an ok player has few points it means he's great defensively, and if a great player has many points he's terrible defensively.

If a player is short, he's probably fast!

If a player has lots of points and his linemates do too, every single one of them is a product of one other on the line and analysis stops there. No multi-variant considerations plz.

If a player has 20 goals in the WHL, he's better than a Q player who scores the same number.

I can prove you with unknown sources (that I will not post here) that a goal in the Q is easier to score than a goal in the WHL.