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C Ivan Barbashev (2014, 33rd, STL)

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Pavel Buchnevich said:
I don't understand the problem. Can the Russian posters not be mad that he took a path that statistically doesn't work out much for Russian forwards and its looking like the same will apply to him?

If he's playing bad and the right way to deal with the bad play is a demotion, fine, I don't think thats the contention here.
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He’s 21. He looked good last year. Saying he should go back to Russia now is absolutely idiotic.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
I don't understand the problem. Can the Russian posters not be mad that he took a path that statistically doesn't work out much for Russian forwards and its looking like the same will apply to him?

If he's playing bad and the right way to deal with the bad play is a demotion, fine, I don't think thats the contention here.
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Atas is pushing a lazy narrative instead of looking at these Russian players as individuals. Some of the players prefer to come over as juniors and play in the CHL and some prefer several years post draft at home before making the jump. Atas obviously has the opinion that all these players should develop at home which is ok but he pushes this narrative every single time a Russian kid doesn't stick immediately at the NHL level. If a kid doesnt stick it isn't always the fault of the development path he took. In Barbashev's case his play was noticeably off from the previous season according to Mike Yeo who remarked on it several times in training camp/preseason. Now it should be noted that Yeo really liked Barbashev last season and even used him on the Blues 1st line. Barbashev pays attention to the details of the center position whether hes playing well or not. His issue going back to his draft year has been consistency and some scouts questioned his offensive upside. So...is it really fair to bring up Barbashevs development path in this situation? Maybe...but considering the source I'm inclined to roll my eyes and point to the long noted consistency issues associated with this player.
 
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TK 421 said:
Atas is pushing a lazy narrative instead of looking at these Russian players as individuals. Some of the players prefer to come over as juniors and play in the CHL and some prefer several years post draft at home before making the jump. Atas obviously has the opinion that all these players should develop at home which is ok but he pushes this narrative every single time a Russian kid doesn't stick immediately at the NHL level. If a kid doesnt stick it isn't always the fault of the development path he took. In Barbashev's case his play was noticeably off from the previous season according to Mike Yeo who remarked on it several times in training camp/preseason. Now it should be noted that Yeo really liked Barbashev last season and even used him on the Blues 1st line. Barbashev pays attention to the details of the center position whether hes playing well or not. His issue going back to his draft year has been consistency and some scouts questioned his offensive upside. So...is it really fair to bring up Barbashevs development path in this situation? Maybe...but considering the source I'm inclined to roll my eyes and point to the long noted consistency issues associated with this player.
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Try making an effort proving I have a narrative, try making an effort proving your stupid claim it was lazy.

A narrative is something not based on facts. You seem to have one about me. So it looks to me more like you are one of those on a pro CHL/AHL/NHL/NA crusade. Those people look for and find "critisizm" about those entities even if there wasn't any.

What is the pointless stuff about individuals?

Of course they are individuals. They have attitudes, opinions, they make decisions. Sometimes their decisions are stupid in my opinion. The "problem" is that opinion is backed by facts and stats. If the success rate of Russians developing in NA would be anywhere close to 50% there would be no point in a debate. It would be perfectly valid to say that it depends on every single player how his career will be affected by a jump to CHL. Right now we are looking a a very different picture though. There are very very few exceptions from the rule that an early jump to the CHL by a russian prospect results in a failure. Thus individuals who decide to follow this path most probably make a mistake. Who cares if those are their very individual decisions and preferences?

Barbasev has consistency isssues? Why? Maybe because he is developing in a wrong environment? There is obviously no proving with one single player. He can't take both paths.

But there is a whole different issue here. It is not even about how long a player needs to stick in the prized NHL. It is about where he actually ends up during that time. It is the AHL for Barbashev. It is CHL for younger guys. Is that a good place to be for them? I say no. You say yes, but you simply don't know the alternative. North Americans in most cases have no idea about russian leagues as evidenced by multiple statements. So when I tell them a guy like Barbashev would be better off developing in the KHL for example they basically just can't really grasp what that ultimately mean for the player. They know their NA options, they put theiir trust in it. Everything else is being stamped "lazy narrative".

Take some time to think aboit it just a bit more. From a team's perspective what's wrong with a player developing in a better league? Especially as they obviously think there is no place for him on their NHL roster.

From a player's perspective it is rather lopsided. He could play at home, in a better league, ultimately just make more money.

If the player is indeed to reach a level at which he is a NHL regular no questions asked he is an individual who can decide to go to NA and play in the NHL... or not.

I can't influence all their decisions, but I as an individual can have an opinion on whether those decisions are wise or stupid.
 
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Atas2000 said:
Try making an effort proving I have a narrative, try making an effort proving your stupid claim it was lazy.

A narrative is something not based on facts. You seem to have one about me. So it looks to me more like you are one of those on a pro CHL/AHL/NHL/NA crusade. Those people look for and find "critisizm" about those entities even if there wasn't any.

What is the pointless stuff about individuals?

Of course they are individuals. They have attitudes, opinions, they make decisions. Sometimes their decisions are stupid in my opinion. The "problem" is that opinion is backed by facts and stats. If the success rate of Russians developing in NA would be anywhere close to 50% there would be no point in a debate. It would be perfectly valid to say that it depends on every single player how his career will be affected by a jump to CHL. Right now we are looking a a very different picture though. There are very very few exceptions from the rule that an early jump to the CHL by a russian prospect results in a failure. Thus individuals who decide to follow this path most probably make a mistake. Who cares if those are their very individual decisions and preferences?

Barbasev has consistency isssues? Why? Maybe because he is developing in a wrong environment? There is obviously no proving with one single player. He can't take both paths.

But there is a whole different issue here. It is not even about how long a player needs to stick in the prized NHL. It is about where he actually ends up during that time. It is the AHL for Barbashev. It is CHL for younger guys. Is that a good place to be for them? I say no. You say yes, but you simply don't know the alternative. North Americans in most cases have no idea about russian leagues as evidenced by multiple statements. So when I tell them a guy like Barbashev would be better off developing in the KHL for example they basically just can't really grasp what that ultimately mean for the player. They know their NA options, they put theiir trust in it. Everything else is being stamped "lazy narrative".

Take some time to think aboit it just a bit more. From a team's perspective what's wrong with a player developing in a better league? Especially as they obviously think there is no place for him on their NHL roster.

From a player's perspective it is rather lopsided. He could play at home, in a better league, ultimately just make more money.

If the player is indeed to reach a level at which he is a NHL regular no questions asked he is an individual who can decide to go to NA and play in the NHL... or not.

I can't influence all their decisions, but I as an individual can have an opinion on whether those decisions are wise or stupid.
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Barbashev has consistency issues period....suggesting it's because of his choice of league is disingenous and lazy imo. That's called confirmation bias. And yeah...I've seen enough of your posts that I consider it a narrative.

For what it's worth I acknowledge the %'s of failures you're pointing out. I've seen the benefits of Russians staying home to develop before coming here and I actually tend to agree with you. But this situation with Barbashev and what you're claiming is a perfect example of your confirmation bias imo. Its all speculation of course but imo he would have these same consistency issues whether he was playing in Russia or NA.
 
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TK 421 said:
Barbashev has consistency issues period....suggesting it's because of his choice of league is disingenous and lazy imo. That's called confirmation bias. And yeah...I've seen enough of your posts that I consider it a narrative.

For what it's worth I acknowledge the %'s of failures you're pointing out. I've seen the benefits of Russians staying home to develop before coming here and I actually tend to agree with you. But this situation with Barbashev and what you're claiming is a perfect example of your confirmation bias imo. Its all speculation of course but imo he would have these same consistency issues whether he was playing in Russia or NA.
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No, he would not. The main benefit for them developing at home might be figuring out consistency issues, that were present with Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Panarin, Buchnevich you name it. Until every single one of them started putting together consistent production in the KHL. It's about working on perfecting their russian hockey education, noone in NA will understand or care for.

Obviously Barbashev's ceiling is a proper middle 6er. He falls into the category of players for which post draft development is more crucial, 'cause they need a lot of work to make them top level ready unlike high end prospects who would overplay their issues with pure talent at times.

Obviously getting stuck in the AHL is not helping most of them developing. For whatever reason. I am not claiming the CHL and AHL are bad leagues. Just not the right environment for russian prospects it seems.
 
Atas2000 said:
No, he would not. The main benefit for them developing at home might be figuring out consistency issues, that were present with Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Panarin, Buchnevich you name it. Until every single one of them started putting together consistent production in the KHL. It's about working on perfecting their russian hockey education, noone in NA will understand or care for.

Obviously Barbashev's ceiling is a proper middle 6er. He falls into the category of players for which post draft development is more crucial, 'cause they need a lot of work to make them top level ready unlike high end prospects who would overplay their issues with pure talent at times.

Obviously getting stuck in the AHL is not helping most of them developing. For whatever reason. I am not claiming the CHL and AHL are bad leagues. Just not the right environment for russian prospects it seems.
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It takes young players time to round out their game as pros whether it's in Russia or NA. What you're describing sounds more like an age/time issue more than a which league issue to me but agree to disagree I suppose.

For me I think it comes down to how soon the player wants to come over. As soon as he's comfortable coming over to learn the NA game that is the appropriate time. It will obviously be an adjustment so the sooner he comes over, the sooner he can get the timing down on NA rinks. I do understand your point however that he will be that much more polished a player the longer he waits to come over. My question would then be why learn habits/timing on a larger surface when he will need to re-learn once he arrives in NA? That is the thought NA fans have regarding pro prospects coming over from Europe and I think it's a fair question.

Btw he's been recalled from the Chicago Wolves of the AHL where he was playing very well from reports Ive seen. With the Schwartz injury he'll get time to make a good impression on Yeo and hopefully sticks this time.
 
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