C Frederik Gauthier (2013, 21st, TOR)

[Yosho]

This thread is painful to read.

Yep lets judge a defensive forward/face off specialist's ability to be an NHL player on his average offensive numbers. Quite the logic.

If you want to argue the validity of taking a bottom 6 player in the 1st round that's fine, but personally I'm quite happy with him. We haven't had a reliable shut down centre who can win draws in years. So that's where I hope he keeps developing.

McClement was so undervalued.

 

[cdasman04]

McClement was so undervalued.

McClement was the equivalent of that for one season. I liked him but his follow up, wasn't much to write home about. I was referring to more of a consistent long term piece in that spot.

 

[Mit Yarrum]

Gaustad 2.0 IMO. Not a knock...Gaustad was a nice player for awhile until time and his style of play caught up with him.

 

[Whileee]

This thread is painful to read.

Yep lets judge a defensive forward/face off specialist's ability to be an NHL player on his average offensive numbers. Quite the logic.

If you want to argue the validity of taking a bottom 6 player in the 1st round that's fine, but personally I'm quite happy with him. We haven't had a reliable shut down centre who can win draws in years. So that's where I hope he keeps developing.

In today's NHL there is very little role for a "shut down" centre who just gets in good positions and checks guys that have the puck. Strong defensive centres have strong puck sense and skills, quick thinking and good vision because they are usually called upon as a key option in carrying or moving the puck out of the zone as an outlet for the D. I just don't see that in Gauthier's game. In my opinion, he's not a suspect prospect as a defensive stud because he's not scoring more, he doesn't score more because he doesn't have the quickness, vision and puck skills that are needed to translate into an effective 3rd or 4th line centre on a good team.

As a reference point, I can't see him competing for 3rd or 4th line centre on a team like the Jets, who have young centre prospects like Lowry and Copp for their bottom two lines. Both of those players are big and aggressive and have the defensive capabilities of Gauthier, but are much stronger in areas like quickness, physical play and puck skills.

 

[Smif]

McClement was so undervalued.

McClement wasn't a shutdown specialist, just a pk specialist. He also wasn't great on the dot. That's one of major Gauthier's strengths.

 

[Anth93]

This is a joke, right??

Not at all. Outstanding skater.

 

[detredWINgs]

This thread is going to be awesome in about 4 years time.

When he joins some league overseas?

When he's a used car salesman?

When he's a professional puzzle solver?

When he's a taxi driver?

When he's a goat farmer ?

I literally laughed out loud at this exchange.

This thread is painful to read.

Yep lets judge a defensive forward/face off specialist's ability to be an NHL player on his average offensive numbers. Quite the logic.

If you want to argue the validity of taking a bottom 6 player in the 1st round that's fine, but personally I'm quite happy with him. We haven't had a reliable shut down centre who can win draws in years. So that's where I hope he keeps developing.

That is almost 100% of the reason why Gauthier is getting railed here. I would bet he gets half the criticism if he were taken 31st or 41st instead of 21st.

 

[Jyrki Lumme]

McClement was so undervalued.

Not really. He got super overrated in the 12-13 season because the team was winning but he had a sky high PDO. The next year he was less lucky and it became apparent that he had no offensive ability whatsoever. He's an ok 4th liner who is good on the PK, but he was played way to much 5on5 in Toronto. I don't think I'd want him to play any more than 5 or 6 minutes per game at 5 on 5, because you know that there's a near 0 percent chance of producing anything offensively when he's on the ice.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Not at all. Outstanding skater.

Not really. He's decent once he gets going. Long, strong sides, but he's not very explosive or particularly agile which is what I think will hurt his chances of being a "shutdown center" in the NHL.

I kind of feel bad for the kid. He played tough minutes all year. Tons of D-zone starts which suppressed his numbers. I noticed hes never really involved offensively. He was on Rimouski's 1st PP pretty much all year, but he never really handled the puck much. Not a particularly good finisher either. He could still be a valuable role player at the next level, but he's going to have to continue to be an ace in the dot and be a reliable PKer. That's where most of his value will be IMO.

 

[Menzinger]

McClement was so undervalued.

Randy Carlyle routinely gave him 15+ minutes a night. I was not a fan of his at all.

 

[Semantics]

McClement was so undervalued.

When McClement is on the ice you're going to spend literally zero time in the offensive zone, so unless he didn't allow a single goal against he's a negative.

His only real value was as a PKer where doing anything in the offensive zone isn't an objective anyway.

Edit: oops, already said above

Randy Carlyle routinely gave him 15+ minutes a night. I was not a fan of his at all.

Often 20+ minutes even... smh.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

I literally laughed out loud at this exchange.



That is almost 100% of the reason why Gauthier is getting railed here. I would bet he gets half the criticism if he were taken 31st or 41st instead of 21st.

What's funny is Sean courturier is a bottom 6 player, and he hasn't up to this point shown the offensive skill to suggest he'll ever be anything more, and he was drafted 8th, and gets nothing but praise for being a shut down centre.

 

[LastWordArmy]

Not at all. Outstanding skater.

Are you watching the same player I am, cause Gauthier's skating is far from "outstanding".

 

[n00bxQb]

What's funny is Sean courturier is a bottom 6 player, and he hasn't up to this point shown the offensive skill to suggest he'll ever be anything more, and he was drafted 8th, and gets nothing but praise for being a shut down centre.

Couturier has exceeded 35 points in each of the past 2 seasons and finished 140th amongst NHL forwards in scoring this season.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

Couturier has exceeded 35 points in each of the past 2 seasons and finished 140th amongst NHL forwards in scoring this season.

Is 35 points a top 6 centre now?

Unless you're boning up my argument that's he's clearly a bottom six player.

 

[GTA]

Not really. He's decent once he gets going. Long, strong sides, but he's not very explosive or particularly agile which is what I think will hurt his chances of being a "shutdown center" in the NHL.

I kind of feel bad for the kid. He played tough minutes all year. Tons of D-zone starts which suppressed his numbers. I noticed hes never really involved offensively. He was on Rimouski's 1st PP pretty much all year, but he never really handled the puck much. Not a particularly good finisher either. He could still be a valuable role player at the next level, but he's going to have to continue to be an ace in the dot and be a reliable PKer. That's where most of his value will be IMO.

Ace on the dot? You realize he actually hasn't been great on the dot over his Q career. His win rate was what this year...52-53%? This myth keeps persisting probably fueled by his WJC wins.

 

[n00bxQb]

Is 35 points a top 6 centre now?

Unless you're boning up my argument that's he's clearly a bottom six player.

I'm not really sure what your goal is. To deflect criticism away from Gauthier?

Couturier has scored 37 and 39 points in the past 2 seasons. Both in the top 180 in scoring amongst forwards, which by some people's definition, would make him a top 6 forward.

Even if you just want to single out centers as listed on NHL.com, he finished 68th amongst centers this season (a whopping 2 points behind 60th) and 63rd last season (a whopping 1 point behind 60th).

So, uh ... yeah, I guess a shutdown centre with borderline top 6 production at ages 21 & 22 is a horrible choice at #8 and there's no chance he's ever going to improve.

If Gauthier ever gets to where Couturier is now, it'll be a successful pick. But that's still a pretty big if at this point.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

I'm not really sure what your goal is. To deflect criticism away from Gauthier?

Couturier has scored 37 and 39 points in the past 2 seasons. Both in the top 180 in scoring amongst forwards, which by some people's definition, would make him a top 6 forward.

Even if you just want to single out centers as listed on NHL.com, he finished 68th amongst centers this season (a whopping 2 points behind 60th) and 63rd last season (a whopping 1 point behind 60th).

So, uh ... yeah, I guess a shutdown centre with borderline top 6 production at ages 21 & 22 is a horrible choice at #8 and there's no chance he's ever going to improve.

You miss my point, I'm saying couts is a great pick, and a great player even though he's clearly a bottom six player. I'm then transferring that over to goats and saying if he turns into a strong shutdown 3c like couts it's worth the first round pick, not everything is offence.

If your goal is to state couts is some offensive prodigy waiting for his big break to bust out, he's had way more ice time than a lot of players in the league.

Guy is clearly a 3c and that's ok. Maybe a 2c on a terrible team with no c depth.

Edit: couts is 212 among forwards in es pp/60

 

[FlyRoutine]

What's funny is Sean courturier is a bottom 6 player, and he hasn't up to this point shown the offensive skill to suggest he'll ever be anything more, and he was drafted 8th, and gets nothing but praise for being a shut down centre.

Thats why Coots has accomplished, what Gauthier has yet to: He played in the NHL since he is 18 years old and brings elite defense to the team while scoring a decent amount of points too.
It seems like, people like to overlook, that Coots is still just 22 years old. He is far away from his peak and has plenty more time to work on his offensive side of the game.

Gauthier has done nothing similar to what Couturier has done yet, neither in the juniors or the pros. Thats why Coots is generally considered the better player with the higher upside.

 

[McFlyingV]

You miss my point, I'm saying couts is a great pick, and a great player even though he's clearly a bottom six player. I'm then transferring that over to goats and saying if he turns into a strong shutdown 3c like couts it's worth the first round pick, not everything is offence.

If your goal is to state couts is some offensive prodigy waiting for his big break to bust out, he's had way more ice time than a lot of players in the league.

Guy is clearly a 3c and that's ok. Maybe a 2c on a terrible team with no c depth.

Edit: couts is 212 among forwards in es pp/60

The point is that Gauthier has shown absolutely nothing in junior to imply that he will have anywhere near Couturier's production in the NHL. Not saying its impossible, but its highly unlikely that Gauthier becomes anything more than a strong defensive forward in the mold of a Boyd Gordon type who tops out at around 20 points. Not exactly the ideal 3rd line centre on a competing team. 4th line who plays a little more than a typical 4th line centre due to defensive zone face-offs and PK, sure. Certainly not comparable to Sean Couturier who would be considered at worst an elite 3rd line shutdown centre.

Just to clarify I'm not saying Gauthier was a terrible pick at 21, as a lot of late first rounders never amount into much of anything. There were however, better options available when the Leafs picked imo (both at the time, and looking back on it now). Personally I just don't see his offensive game ever translating into anything significant at the NHL level.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

Thats why Coots has accomplished, what Gauthier has yet to: He played in the NHL since he is 18 years old and brings elite defense to the team while scoring a decent amount of points too.
It seems like, people like to overlook, that Coots is still just 22 years old. He is far away from his peak and has plenty more time to work on his offensive side of the game.

Gauthier has done nothing similar to what Couturier has done yet, neither in the juniors or the pros. Thats why Coots is generally considered the better player with the higher upside.

But no one is saying it was a wasted pick because couts is a bottom 6 player.

This argument that a first round pick must be top six is kinda flawed, IMO. And couts validates that.

Absolutely goats hasn't done anything yet, criticize him for that, but don't say he was a wasted pick because you don't use a first rounder on a defensive 3c when couts is just that, and a top ten pick to boot.

 

[FanHabtic*]

I'm not sure what the Leafs were thinking with that pick. Guys like Gauthier should be 2nd round picks.

I compare Goat to JDLR. Both are offensively challenged but gifted defensively. The difference is that JDLR has speed to burn to go with his defensive game.

 

[Jtown]

But no one is saying it was a wasted pick because couts is a bottom 6 player.

This argument that a first round pick must be top six is kinda flawed, IMO. And couts validates that.

Absolutely goats hasn't done anything yet, criticize him for that, but don't say he was a wasted pick because you don't use a first rounder on a defensive 3c when couts is just that, and a top ten pick to boot.

he wasn't a wasted pick, but again at 8th overall you are kind of expecting a top 6 player.

 

[n00bxQb]

You miss my point, I'm saying couts is a great pick, and a great player even though he's clearly a bottom six player. I'm then transferring that over to goats and saying if he turns into a strong shutdown 3c like couts it's worth the first round pick, not everything is offence.

I see, that's not how I interpreted your initial response. My apologies.

 

[LeafsNation149]

I'm not sure what the Leafs were thinking with that pick. Guys like Gauthier should be 2nd round picks.

I compare Goat to JDLR. Both are offensively challenged but gifted defensively. The difference is that JDLR has speed to burn to go with his defensive game.

Well Gauthier was ranked near 20 on all lists so not sure why he should have gone in the 2nd round.