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C Clayton Keller - Boston University, NCAA (2016, 7th, ARI)

Jerrico said:
I don't think you're understanding me here.

I never said small players can't be successful. I never said Keller wouldn't be successful. And I never said that all players over a certain height are guaranteed to be successful.

All I'm saying, literally all I'm saying, is that Keller is not "average" in terms of NHL size, as you claimed him to be. This is not a debatable statement, it is objectively and empirically true. That's it.
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And I really don't know what your point is? I said he's an average size body type, and I stand by that. Do you know how much 2-3 inches is, again stop making him out to be something he's not.

If someone is 6'0, are they undersized? You're being silly talking about such a minuscule thing. I'll admit he's underweight but that'll likely change. I wouldn't classify Giroux or Crosby as undersized players, I've never heard that term used towards them. I've always heard people classify them as average sized.

Keller has ideal size for hockey IMO. His game is built for high paced speed and slashing through defenders. I don't even know why this is a thing and his size is being talked about.
 
Johnny Hoxville said:
And I really don't know what your point is? I said he's an average size body type, and I stand by that. Do you know how much 2-3 inches is, again stop making him out to be something he's not.

If someone is 6'0, are they undersized? You're being silly talking about such a minuscule thing. I'll admit he's underweight but that'll likely change. I wouldn't classify Giroux or Crosby as undersized players, I've never heard that term used towards them. I've always heard people classify them as average sized.

Keller has ideal size for hockey IMO. His game is built for high paced speed and slashing through defenders. I don't even know why this is a thing and his size is being talked about.
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He's not average sized in NHL, he's below average. That's just a fact with no opinion attached.
 
ijuka said:
He's not average sized in NHL, he's below average. That's just a fact with no opinion attached.
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Right now maybe but in 2-3 years not really. He's 5"10 and could still grow (17 year old now) and will add some weight over the years. Even if he doesn't grow he can be average sized, let's not act like he's 5"7 or something
 
Ironic005 said:
Right now maybe but in 2-3 years not really. He's 5"10 and could still grow (17 year old now) and will add some weight over the years. Even if he doesn't grow he can be average sized, let's not act like he's 5"7 or something
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Exactly. Like if you want to be a literalist and not use your common sense, sure. I mean, anyone 5'10, 5'11 or 6'0 then is technically undersized as well if you are literally going by that average (which ridiculous to say). When in actuality, when he's ready to play in the league, he will be classified as an average sized player if he can get up to 185 lbs.
 
Steve Kelly said:
Hope this kid falls to 11
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If Keller is still on the board at #11 the Devils should be ecstatic, regardless of whether or not he sticks at center NJ would still be looking at a future 1st line player imho.

I'll go on record and say five years from now Keller will be universally viewed as a top 4 player from this draft.
 
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Johnny Hoxville said:
Exactly. Like if you want to be a literalist and not use your common sense, sure. I mean, anyone 5'10, 5'11 or 6'0 then is technically undersized as well if you are literally going by that average (which ridiculous to say). When in actuality, when he's ready to play in the league, he will be classified as an average sized player if he can get up to 185 lbs.
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Yeah damn those "literalists," using fancy book words to articulate the objective meanings they were set up to represent. What does "average" mean anyway? As far as I'm concerned, everyone who can play hockey effectively at the NHL level should be considered average height.
 
Johnny Hoxville said:
Exactly. Like if you want to be a literalist and not use your common sense, sure. I mean, anyone 5'10, 5'11 or 6'0 then is technically undersized as well if you are literally going by that average (which ridiculous to say). When in actuality, when he's ready to play in the league, he will be classified as an average sized player if he can get up to 185 lbs.
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He's below average, but its more weight than height. He's basically the same size as Marner. An inch shorter, but has a bit more weight on him (about 5 pounds). Adapting to center full time at the next level will be tough the way the game is going, but he is capable (Giroux is really the only slight sub 6 foot elite center, could also group in Kuznetsov who is listed at 6', but guys like Crosby are shorter but stocky as hell). Most likely he ends up on the wing, but I don't think it hurts his stock too much. This draft is very center limited. The only pure centers getting top 12 consideration are Matthews, Brown and Jost, people think Dubois, and Keller might be centers and are comfortable gambling on them because even if they don't cut it at centers are high-end wingers.
 
93LEAFS said:
He's below average, but its more weight than height. He's basically the same size as Marner. An inch shorter, but has a bit more weight on him (about 5 pounds). Adapting to center full time at the next level will be tough the way the game is going, but he is capable (Giroux is really the only slight sub 6 foot elite center, could also group in Kuznetsov who is listed at 6', but guys like Crosby are shorter but stocky as hell). Most likely he ends up on the wing, but I don't think it hurts his stock too much. This draft is very center limited. The only pure centers getting top 12 consideration are Matthews, Brown and Jost, people think Dubois, and Keller might be centers and are comfortable gambling on them because even if they don't cut it at centers are high-end wingers.
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Agreed, his weight will be far more of a hurdle than his height, which is really a non factor. In that area he's definitely undersized and maybe 3 years away as a result. The good news for him, the college route is ideal so hopefully he can add mass next season.

And yeah I don't know if he ends up as a center or winger, but he should hopefully have a bright future in the NHL.
 
Johnny Hoxville said:
Agreed, his weight will be far more of a hurdle than his height, which is really a non factor. In that area he's definitely undersized and maybe 3 years away as a result. The good news for him, the college route is ideal so hopefully he can add mass next season.

And yeah I don't know if he ends up as a center or winger, but he should hopefully have a bright future in the NHL.
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Three years is a very, very long time.

By next year he'll likely be around 180 pounds. He's very young. Putting up weight, especially if he goes the NCAA route, isn't that hard.

I can almost guarantee he'll see NHL ice far sooner than what you seem to expect. He said he sees himself making the jump after one year in college, and that's the feeling I get as well.
 
2 things I'd like someone to verify:

1) How many prospects listed in Central Scouting over the past 10 or so years have actually grown, lets say, 1 inch since their draft... in particular smaller players under 5'11"

2) What is the average weight gained of a player going to NCAA... there seems to be a myth about this in my opinion and I'd like to see if there is any substance behind it.

These two things are common refrains regarding undersized prospects.. how often do either come to fruition in a significant impactful way? I almost want to say these are both by far the exception to the rule, not something that should be used as a hypothetical in every argument about an undersized prospect.

Gains are made in the summer... In-season would see very light strength increases and most likely simply maintenance..
 
puckfan13 said:
2 things I'd like someone to verify:

1) How many prospects listed in Central Scouting over the past 10 or so years have actually grown, lets say, 1 inch since their draft... in particular smaller players under 5'11"

2) What is the average weight gained of a player going to NCAA... there seems to be a myth about this in my opinion and I'd like to see if there is any substance behind it.

These two things are common refrains regarding undersized prospects.. how often do either come to fruition in a significant impactful way? I almost want to say these are both by far the exception to the rule, not something that should be used as a hypothetical in every argument about an undersized prospect.

Gains are made in the summer... In-season would see very light strength increases and most likely simply maintenance..
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I asked this question in a thread here about 2 weeks ago. There was a surprising number of players that grew, but its less then the amount that stay roughly the same height
 
puckfan13 said:
2 things I'd like someone to verify:

1) How many prospects listed in Central Scouting over the past 10 or so years have actually grown, lets say, 1 inch since their draft... in particular smaller players under 5'11"

2) What is the average weight gained of a player going to NCAA... there seems to be a myth about this in my opinion and I'd like to see if there is any substance behind it.

These two things are common refrains regarding undersized prospects.. how often do either come to fruition in a significant impactful way? I almost want to say these are both by far the exception to the rule, not something that should be used as a hypothetical in every argument about an undersized prospect.

Gains are made in the summer... In-season would see very light strength increases and most likely simply maintenance..
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Just 1 example is Miles Wood. If i remember correctly his weight was like 160 or 165. He was drafted in 2013 and did an extra year in High School. But that kid weights every bit of 200 lbs when you see him in person. USA Hockey has him listed at 195. He he put on 25 to 30 lbs in 3 years pretty much.

Thats just 1 example, but its possible that he puts on weight that gets him close to 180ish after a year. In a perfect world, for whoever gets him if he puts on 10 this summer and 10 next summer he will be 184 is and ready to make the jump.

However i do personally fell like College programs are better for these kids who want to get bigger vs say juniors. Im not sure why, i think its because of the american college culture where working out and being at the gym is a big deal. Its a big reason why A LOT of USA college have some insane state of the art gyms that some professional teams wish they had.
 
93LEAFS said:
He's below average, but its more weight than height. He's basically the same size as Marner. An inch shorter, but has a bit more weight on him (about 5 pounds). Adapting to center full time at the next level will be tough the way the game is going, but he is capable (Giroux is really the only slight sub 6 foot elite center, could also group in Kuznetsov who is listed at 6', but guys like Crosby are shorter but stocky as hell). Most likely he ends up on the wing, but I don't think it hurts his stock too much. This draft is very center limited. The only pure centers getting top 12 consideration are Matthews, Brown and Jost, people think Dubois, and Keller might be centers and are comfortable gambling on them because even if they don't cut it at centers are high-end wingers.
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Johnny Hoxville said:
Agreed, his weight will be far more of a hurdle than his height, which is really a non factor. In that area he's definitely undersized and maybe 3 years away as a result. The good news for him, the college route is ideal so hopefully he can add mass next season.

And yeah I don't know if he ends up as a center or winger, but he should hopefully have a bright future in the NHL.
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I don't know boys Tyler Johnson is carving out a nice career as a centre in the new NHL and I do think its possible Keller fills a hybrid roll at centre similar to Giroux-Johnson.

That being said I am not dying on the hill or anything because he could go the Marner route and be a possession driving dynamic winger too. Personally I tend to not distinguish much between scoring centres and scoring wingers because they fill a similar roll and who cares who takes the faceoff.

Bergeron, Toews, Matthews, and Kopitar are prototypical two way centres but the rest of the guys are just flat out scorers and who cares where they line up for the face off IMO of coarse.
 
ps241 said:
I don't know boys Tyler Johnson is carving out a nice career as a centre in the new NHL and I do think its possible Keller fills a hybrid roll at centre similar to Giroux-Johnson.

That being said I am not dying on the hill or anything because he could go the Marner route and be a possession driving dynamic winger too. Personally I tend to not distinguish much between scoring centres and scoring wingers because they fill a similar roll and who cares who takes the faceoff.

Bergeron, Toews, Matthews, and Kopitar are prototypical two way centres but the rest of the guys are just flat out scorers and who cares where they line up for the face off IMO of coarse.
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Tyler Johnson is close, I woudln't say he's carved out a place as an elite centerman though, atleast not the the extent of Giroux. He's in the firnge 20 to 35 range with guys like Turris. Giroux is an elite center. I'd say even if they aren't known as two way guys, you have to add guys like Crosby, Malkin, Thornton, Getzlaf, Johansen, etc who use great strength on the puck to control possession and maintain it. I think Keller is comaprable to guys like Marner (though I think Marner is the better prospect, which seems to be a fairly universal view). Keller's a great prospect, and I think has a case to be discussed at 4 and 5, although he really doesn't fit Edmonton's needs, and doesn't seem to fit Benning's interests.
 
I've been told personally that Avs have been heavily scouting him (and Brown) the last half of the season.

Don't know if they truly want him, but was also told that a couple teams ahead of Avs really like him as a player.
 
I think he's a top 10 talent all day. I'd be thrilled with taking him at 6.

Craig Button had him at 6, his brother Todd, the (Flames head scout) likely talk with each other a fair bit and share info. Craig had Jankowski ranked in the first round, when pretty much every other list had him in the 2nd. Craig even said the Flames should take him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Keller was the Flames target 6.
 
He's undersized. 5'10", 164 lbs at the combine is very small, especially for a centre. Not Gaudreau small, but small regardless - both short and slight. He'd need to be 2" taller and 20 lbs heavier (on draft day) before we could consider him average sized.

Still a great prospect, and there's tonnes of great, smaller NHLers. He can absolutely overcome it, but size is a clear negative for him, he's small.
 
S E P H said:
I've been told personally that Avs have been heavily scouting him (and Brown) the last half of the season.

Don't know if they truly want him, but was also told that a couple teams ahead of Avs really like him as a player.
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The Avs have been heavily scouting two players ranked right in their wheelhouse? That's some serious intel you've got there.
 
hockeyfreak7 said:
The Avs have been heavily scouting two players ranked right in their wheelhouse? That's some serious intel you've got there.
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Better to have intel than lack it. If you had some, you would know it would be pretty big news for the Avs to draft a 5'10" forward who's more on the smaller frame as well. Especially considering Avs front office said they want to get bigger, so they might have seen something in Keller they like. Or Keller might be too good to pass up on instead of going after Gauthier or one of the defenders. Just because this doesn't affect you, doesn't mean it's wasteful information to everyone else.
 
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